National Action anti-fascist Liverpool march delay trains today (15Aug15)

[fowler9]

The local news last night described it as 'some shuffles' between groups and said the right wing group called off their march because only a small number turned up and they were outnumbered by police, never mind the anti-fascists.

I mean that was it, some scuffles. And that was spread across the general area, not all of the nazis were in Lime Street Station. The wording in the Maail about rival groups fighting in Lime Street was a massive dramatisation. Like I say, I was there.

 

[Michael.Y]

Offtopic, but if the EDL, White Pride, neo-nazi groups didn't exist in the first place or had their pathetic marches and rallies cancelled or banned before they even happened, the likes of UAF wouldn't exist and/or the extremist element they attract on THEIR side wouldn't appear either.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Offtopic, but if the EDL, White Pride, neo-nazi groups didn't exist in the first place or had their pathetic marches and rallies cancelled or banned before they even happened, the likes of UAF wouldn't exist and/or the extremist element they attract on THEIR side wouldn't appear either.

This. Whatever the more "extreme" elements of the Antifas do, they'll ALWAYS have the moral/ethical high-ground. To paint the two factions as basically different sides of the same coin is at best willfully ignorant.

 

[meridian2]

Two sides of the same coin; both designed to provoke and stir emotions from their audiences. Storms in teacups, nothing more, and I hope the general public wasn't too caught up in the disruption.

 

[Camden]

Offtopic, but if the EDL, White Pride, neo-nazi groups didn't exist in the first place or had their pathetic marches and rallies cancelled or banned before they even happened, the likes of UAF wouldn't exist and/or the extremist element they attract on THEIR side wouldn't appear either.

Don't think that is true. There was no extreme right wing at play last government period when there were violent protests, just a government imposing tuition fees. The far left pop up all over the place like a bad smell just as much as the far right. They are both polarised view points not born out of one another or as a reaction to the other but are their own creation. They all have their own agendas they want to impose on other people even ironically the so called freedom loving anarchists (what if people want a government and a nation? they don't like that so it's no go as far as they are concerned). On both sides I have my doubts as to how many believe in what they say and how many just want to believe in something but are too challenged to be able to process, and how many just like thuggery and people staring at them afraid.
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Two sides of the same coin; both designed to provoke and stir emotions from their audiences. Storms in teacups, nothing more, and I hope the general public wasn't too caught up in the disruption.

yes exactly

 

[fowler9]

Two sides of the same coin; both designed to provoke and stir emotions from their audiences. Storms in teacups, nothing more, and I hope the general public wasn't too caught up in the disruption.

Yeah except that isn't true. A vast majority of people in Liverpool without any affiliation to any protest group decided to turn up. The Neo Nazis cancelled their march and by all accounts got dumped off a train at Edge Hill which I am sure will have been interesting for them. The general public were not inconvenienced any more than they would be by a large concert being in the city, I will leave you to decide what matters more.

If you want Neo Nazis walking through your streets then feel free to invite them. Liverpool makes a lot of its money from tourism, in fact there was a cruise ship docked at the pier head. We don't want fascists marching through the city centre while the city is trying to do what many accuse it of not doing and make some money.

 

[Camden]

Fair enough chap, I can understand that view.
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Liverpool makes a lot of its money from tourism, in fact there was a cruise ship docked at the pier head. We don't want fascists marching through the city centre while the city is trying to do what many accuse it of not doing and make some money.

Hope it was a big one and wasn't affected

 

[fowler9]

Fair enough chap, I can understand that view.
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Hope it was a big one and wasn't affected

Quite small to be honest. Aidacara.

 

[thenorthern]

Offtopic, but if the EDL, White Pride, neo-nazi groups didn't exist in the first place or had their pathetic marches and rallies cancelled or banned before they even happened, the likes of UAF wouldn't exist and/or the extremist element they attract on THEIR side wouldn't appear either.

I wouldn't say that the UAF protest against UKIP regularly and I think they have had a go at some Conservative MPs before. They are not a nice group to be honest and many of there members claim to be peacefully protesting but at many of their demos end up with more arrests than the far right groups they are protesting against.

Back to yesterday though how much of Lime Street was damaged by the protests?

 

[adrock1976]

Also bear in mind that although UAF's aims and objectives are the best of intentions, remember that some of the high heid yins are part of the Central Committe of the SWP.

 

[Saint66]

I wouldn't say that the UAF protest against UKIP regularly and I think they have had a go at some Conservative MPs before. They are not a nice group to be honest and many of there members claim to be peacefully protesting but at many of their demos end up with more arrests than the far right groups they are protesting against.

Back to yesterday though how much of Lime Street was damaged by the protests?

Damaged? I think the shutter on the luggage shop had some banana on it, and there was some rubbish on the floor that needed cleaning...

 

[Jonny]

Offtopic, but if the EDL, White Pride, neo-nazi groups didn't exist in the first place or had their pathetic marches and rallies cancelled or banned before they even happened, the likes of UAF wouldn't exist and/or the extremist element they attract on THEIR side wouldn't appear either.

The trouble with the UAF is that they are looking for trouble. They are so-called liberals / progressives / socialists who shout down and harass anyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Chew Chew]

Fair play to the people of Liverpool who stopped bigots marching on their streets.

Here is the letter National Action sent to the Mayor of Liverpool.

Only bullets would stop them apparently.

 

[Jonny]

I wouldn't say that the UAF protest against UKIP regularly and I think they have had a go at some Conservative MPs before. They are not a nice group to be honest and many of there members claim to be peacefully protesting but at many of their demos end up with more arrests than the far right groups they are protesting against.

The UAF would go at and antagonise groups who were specifically protesting against Islamic extremism (which is not fascist and totally non-racist). In fact, subsequent events regarding radicalisation have shown concerns about Islamic extremism to be justified.

 

[Michael.Y]

I wouldn't say that the UAF protest against UKIP regularly

Good. Some of UKIP's policies, supporters, members and rhetoric are VERY fascistic.

Jonny - you seem to be sympathetic to the Nazis' viewpoint. Worrying.

 

[yorkie]

The trouble with the UAF is that they are looking for trouble. They are so-called liberals / progressives / socialists who shout down and harass anyone who disagrees with them.

Whatever. The fact is, no-one with a right mind wants to see a march like this take place. If they tried to come to York I would join in the efforts to expel them from the city (if I wasn't otherwise busy). So good on the people of Liverpool!

 

[Michael.Y]

Whatever. The fact is, no-one with a right mind wants to see a march like this take place. If they tried to come to York I would join in the efforts to expel them from the city (if I wasn't otherwise busy). So good on the people of Liverpool!

Hear hear.

 

[Camden]

Jonny - you seem to be sympathetic to the Nazis' viewpoint. Worrying.

From what evidence do you arrive at that conclusion? I don't see it anywhere?

My grandmother and grandad both fought against the fascists at great personal peril. But they would never have shared the time of day with many of those in the "UAF", I know that for sure.

 

[furnessvale]

Fair play to the people of Liverpool who stopped bigots marching on their streets.

Here is the letter National Action sent to the Mayor of Liverpool.

Only bullets would stop them apparently.

Yes, it looks "genuine"

 

[thenorthern]

Damaged? I think the shutter on the luggage shop had some banana on it, and there was some rubbish on the floor that needed cleaning...

Thats good when the EDL were in Stoke-on-Trent a couple of years ago they smashed up a police van and left the city centre in a right mess.

Given that most the far right demonstrations are attended by people who aren't from the areas they are protesting and many of them travel in by train how do the rail companies segregate passengers from each group? I know there was a picture widely circulated of a woman wearing a hijab on a train surrounded by EDL members although it looked rather staged.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only bullets would stop them apparently.

The only nazis welcome on British (or any) streets should be of the Grammar variety... They'd have a good laugh with that letter!

 

[Jonny]

Sorry if I've offended anyone. This is a case where I don't care much for the protesters on either side.

One the one hand, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis, and I wouldn't touch the current EDL with a bargepole either. However, I also have very little sympathy for the anti-fascist protestors, after all they went to the trouble of blocking up passenger access to a major railway station for everyone.

I should point out that the EDL as founded was intended to campaign exclusively against Islamic extremism, although the founders left as they seemed to believe it had gone in a different direction.

A quick google search turned up this, I could go on a search engine trawl
http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2015/03/09/most-of-29-arrests-at-dudley-march-opposed-edl/
Headline and subheadline

Most of 29 arrests at Dudley march opposed EDL
Most of the people arrested after an English Defence League march in Dudley were counter protesters, it has emerged.

The trouble is that this is often the normal situation at such events, and it is a reflection on those involved (bearing in mind that they are often not enrolled members).

In 2013, this happened (although both sides may have been partly at fault)

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rs-clash-with-bnp-in-westminster-8640650.html (headline only) 58 arrested as anti-fascist demonstrators clash with BNP in Westminster

I dredged these up as well, from 2010. It seems that little has changed:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ce-missiles-far-right-Bank-Holiday-march.html (headline: Police pelted with missiles by anti-fascist protesters during far-right Bank Holiday march

I also came across these: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ce-missiles-far-right-Bank-Holiday-march.html (Headline: "Police pelted with missiles by anti-fascist protesters")

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-blame-antifascists-for-violence-1925038.html (Headline: Police blame anti-fascists for violence)

It would seem that at least some of these anti-fascist protestors are going out, willing to cause trouble even if they don't have firm plans.

Also, I came across this:
http://standforpeace.org.uk/extremist-speakers-at-uaf-conference-2014/

Extremist speakers at UAF Conference 2014
On 14 June, Unite Against Fascism (UAF) is holding its annual conference. UAF is a project of the Socialist Workers’ Party, a Marxist group that supports the violent overthrow of liberal democracy in favour of a totalitarian Marxist regime. Recently, the Socialist Workers’ Party voiced support for Hefezat-e-Islam, an extreme Islamist group in Bangladesh, which advocates the death penalty for “atheists” and others whom they claim “defame Islam.”
Predictably, a number of problematic speakers are due to give talks at the 2014 conference.
Peter Tatchell, a prominent gay rights campaigner, has noted: “UAF commendably opposes the British National Party and English Defence League but it is silent about Islamist fascists who promote anti-Semitism, homophobia, sexism and sectarian attacks on non-extremist Muslims.”

(article continues)

(emphasis mine)

I think the Peter Tatchell quote sums it up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You raise some good points, and yes there are a fair number of idiots among the UAF ranks. My earlier post about the moral high ground does seem to inspire this minority to overstep the boundaries of decency, too. The Peter Tatchell quote is a bit disingenuous though, as UAF have in fact protested against homophobic groups (there was a Conservative Christian organisation whose name escapes me who picketed gay weddings shortly after they were legalised- UAF attended and thwarted the pickets simply by chanting and no violence took place). The protests against the EDL focus on the racist nature of that organisation because that is the key issue at hand, likewise when protesting homophobic movements race isn't really the issue at that point. The violence aspect is a problem with sections of UAF, though while it may be disproportionate it does tend to be reactive in my experience.

Apologies for the continuation of the off-topic discussion, though I'm not sure if there's anything railway related that hasn't already been covered in this thread.

 

[yorkie]

Also, I came across this:
http://standforpeace.org.uk/extremist-speakers-at-uaf-conference-2014/

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says it all!

Of course the idiotic anarchists (who want to destroy our way of life and, if they had their way, railways and this forum would not exist) will jump on the bandwagon and of course they should be deplored for their actions, but just because a few anarchists are joining in that doesn't make the totally justifiable actions of those thousands of people who stand firm against the far-right wrong.

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says it all!

Of course the idiotic anarchists (who want to destroy our way of life and, if they had their way, railways and this forum would not exist) will jump on the bandwagon and of course they should be deplored for their actions, but just because a few anarchists are joining in that doesn't make the totally justifiable actions of those thousands of people who stand firm against the far-right wrong.

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

Well said! My sentiments exactly.

 

[meridian2]

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says it all!

Of course the idiotic anarchists (who want to destroy our way of life and, if they had their way, railways and this forum would not exist) will jump on the bandwagon and of course they should be deplored for their actions, but just because a few anarchists are joining in that doesn't make the totally justifiable actions of those thousands of people who stand firm against the far-right wrong.

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

Nobody wants to because of the fear of litigation.

These 'fascists' are merely attention-seekers who, I strongly doubt, understand what fascism is, let alone what constitutes a 'fascist lifestyle'. Besides if you feel strongly about interfering, then I suspect these attention-seekers have already won.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These 'fascists' are merely attention-seekers who, I strongly doubt, understand what fascism is, let alone what constitutes a 'fascist lifestyle'.

You make a very good point here.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

Well said Yorkie

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

So what you're saying is that anyone who disagrees with you should be banned from expressing their views? I think that makes you just as much a fascist as those you'd protest against!

 

[yorkie]

So what you're saying is that anyone who disagrees with you should be banned from expressing their views?

They're not going to be allowed to march in our city inciting racial hatred. I'm confident that people would come out in force, as happened in Liverpool, to ensure that does not happen. If you don't like what happened in Liverpool and don't want people like me from doing the same in other cities, then I'm sorry but you'll just have to lump it!

I think that makes you just as much a fascist as those you'd protest against!

Your views are noted.