National Action anti-fascist Liverpool march delay trains today (15Aug15)

[PHILIPE]

I'm sure many of the groups have hangers-on just looking for an excuse to have a good punch up.

 

[Blamethrower]

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says it all!

Of course the idiotic anarchists (who want to destroy our way of life and, if they had their way, railways and this forum would not exist) will jump on the bandwagon and of course they should be deplored for their actions, but just because a few anarchists are joining in that doesn't make the totally justifiable actions of those thousands of people who stand firm against the far-right wrong.

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

So you would happily use fascism to combat the fascists? Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy there? :roll:

Thing is, it's not just you, it's a quite a few people here and it seems like you've tried to round on Jonny which is unfair.

If someone has a different opinion to you, you have no right to try and silence them. In a democratic society, whether you agree with someone is not the issue. They have a right to say whatever they want, just as you do.

As soon as it becomes actions then that's a different matter entirely.

If there are "scuffles" then that is a criminal issue and nothing to do with views that are held by those people.

I'm sure many will now respond with "You're a nazi sympathiser or you're a fascist" but actually, people, you need to have a good long look at yourselves before trying to SILENCE free voices in a free society.

Anti-fascism my @rce, you're just anti-people who don't agree with you.

 

[Carntyne]

Sorry but if you have to resort to quoting from Sam Westrop's 'Stand for Peace' (!) jokers then I think that says it all!

Of course the idiotic anarchists (who want to destroy our way of life and, if they had their way, railways and this forum would not exist) will jump on the bandwagon and of course they should be deplored for their actions, but just because a few anarchists are joining in that doesn't make the totally justifiable actions of those thousands of people who stand firm against the far-right wrong.

If the fascists try to march in my city, I am going to be there - if I can - to stop them, and I am certain thousands more would do too. And we'd be completely and utterly right to do so.

Great post. Fair play Yorkie!

 

[meridian2]

So you would happily use fascism to combat the fascists? Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy there? :roll:

Thing is, it's not just you, it's a quite a few people here and it seems like you've tried to round on Jonny which is unfair.

If someone has a different opinion to you, you have no right to try and silence them. In a democratic society, whether you agree with someone is not the issue. They have a right to say whatever they want, just as you do.

As soon as it becomes actions then that's a different matter entirely.

If there are "scuffles" then that is a criminal issue and nothing to do with views that are held by those people.

I'm sure many will now respond with "You're a nazi sympathiser or you're a fascist" but actually, people, you need to have a good long look at yourselves before trying to SILENCE free voices in a free society.

Anti-fascism my @rce, you're just anti-people who don't agree with you.

And that's part of the problem: the abuse of democracy, which has created these warped ideals, or in this case, attention-seeking. And doesn't this line:

'as soon as it becomes actions'

contradict this line?:

'If someone has a different opinion to you, you have no right to try and silence them'

So are you for or against action?

 

[nw1]

I wouldn't say that the UAF protest against UKIP regularly and I think they have had a go at some Conservative MPs before. They are not a nice group to be honest and many of there members claim to be peacefully protesting but at many of their demos end up with more arrests than the far right groups they are protesting against.

Back to yesterday though how much of Lime Street was damaged by the protests?

Given that certain UKIP and Conservative Party members do have some quite distasteful views, is that surprising?

Also, do we know what the anti-fascists are arrested for in any case? Is it something serious like assaulting a passer-by or is it for something like getting into a verbal argument with a police officer?

Whatever, the anti-fascists are protesting against a truly horrible group in this case and their protest is absolutely 100% justified.

As for preventing it on the railways, beyond banning travel by people to Liverpool on the day with obvious signs of neo-Nazi affiliation (completely impractical of course) it's a bit of a tricky one to be honest.

 

[pemma]

When the EDL marched in Manchester earlier this year an alternative to a counter-protest march was held at Manchester Cathedral

Faith, community and civic leaders are meeting in Manchester Cathedral today to call on the people of Greater Manchester to ignore the English Defence League when they return to Manchester city centre this weekend.

The vigil, this afternoon at 3.30pm, is a show of unity against the EDL and a celebration of the region’s inclusion and diversity.

The event is in support of a statement released today, which urges Mancunians to do as they have done before and turn their backs on the EDL as they attempt to spread their message of hatred and division.

Canon Philip Barratt, Sub Dean, Manchester Cathedral spoke of the cathedral Community’s commitment to hosting the Vigil; he said: “ An enormous part of our Charism as a cathedral, is to reflect, encourage and support the most exciting diversity of faith, culture and experience which is around us here in Manchester. To share in welcoming faith leaders and representatives from all areas of city life is a great honour. We are proud to host the Challenging Hate Forum here and see this shared time of vigil as a continuation of that valuable work in our City”

Greater Manchester’s Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd, the Bishop of Manchester, Rt Revd Dr David Walker, Manchester Central MP Lucy Powell, and Manchester City Council Leader Sir Richard Leese among the 34 leading figures who have signed the letter encouraging local people to join them in this show of solidarity.

The letter reads:

We are proud of the tradition of protest that we have here in our great city. From the anti-slavery movement, to the Suffragettes, to pro-democracy demonstrations, to rallies against war and austerity, Manchester has always been a place where people can make their voice heard.

We’re also proud of our tradition of inclusion and diversity. No matter who you are, you can be yourself in Manchester.

We stand united in our affirmation of the value of every human being, and against anything that would seek to divide our communities.

This weekend sees the English Defence League return to Manchester city centre. They have little support in this city, as each time they have come they have had to bus in their supporters from elsewhere.

Their values of hatred and division fly in the face of the Mancunian vision of acceptance and peace. So how do we respond to their arrival in our city?

We recommend that Mancunians do what they have done before – ignore them. The most powerful thing we can do is not to shout back at these people, but simply turn our backs. We do not want to give credit to their campaign.

We are confident the police and city council have a clear plan in place to minimise disruption and will not tolerate any lawbreaking. Our city centre is open for business as usual and, like every weekend, we urge everyone to come here and enjoy the great things that Manchester has to offer.

The full list of signatories to the statement are:

Tony Lloyd, Police and Crime Commissioner
Rt Revd Dr David Walker, Bishop of Manchester, Church of England
Rt Hon Baroness Hughes of Stretford
Councillor Sue Cooley, Lord Mayor of Manchester
Lucy Powell, MP, Manchester Central
Sir Richard Leese, Leader, Manchester City Council
Councillor Mohammed Afzal Khan C.B.E., M.E.P.
Rt Revd Chris Edmondson, Bishop of Bolton, Church of England
Rt Revd Mark Davies, Bishop of Middleton, Church of England
Revd Keith Davies, Chair, Manchester and Stockport District, Methodist Church
Revd Richard Church, Moderator, North West Synod, United Reformed Church
Archbishop Dr Doyé Teido Agama, Presiding Prelate and Executive Director, Apostolic Pastoral Congress, and Senior Pastor, Christian Way of Life Churches
Revd Tim Presswood, Transitional Regional Minister, North Western Baptist Association
Mr Suresh Mehta, Secretary, Board of Trustees, Jain Samaj Manchester
Rabbi Jonathan Guttentag, Whitefield Synagogue (Orthodox Judaism)
Rabbi Reuven Silverman, Manchester Reform Congregation (Reform Judaism)
Mr Louis Rapaport, co-chair of the Hindu-Jewish Association, Manchester
Dr Girdhari Bhan, Hindu community representative, and co-chair of the Hindu-Jewish Association, Manchester
Imam Rashid Musa, Imam of Salford
Ms Assia Shah, Chaplaincy Teams, University of Manchester, and Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust
Mr Jagtar Singh Ajimal, Sikh Community
Mr V.J. Gautam, Hindu Community
Revd Canon Philip Barratt, Sub-Dean, Manchester Cathedral
Mr David Arnold, co-chair of the Council of Christians and Jews, Manchester Branch
Revd Canon Steve Williams, co-chair of the Council of Christians and Jews, Manchester Branch
Ms Heather Fletcher, co-chair of the Muslim Jewish Forum of Greater Manchester
Mr Mohammed Amin, co-chair of the Muslim Jewish Forum of Greater Manchester
Revd Bob Day, chair of Faith Network 4 Manchester
Mr Jonny Wineberg, vice-chair of Faith Network 4 Manchester
Paul Martin OBE, Chief Executive, The Lesbian and Gay Foundation
Atiha Chaudry JP DL, Lead, Manchester BME Network
Councillor Pat Karney, city centre spokesperson Manchester City Council
Councillor Sue Murphy, Deputy Leader, Manchester City Council
Councillor Bernard Priest, Deputy Leader, Manchester City Council
Jim Battle, Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner
Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service

http://www.manchestercathedral.org/news/330/mancunians-urged-to-simply-ignore-edl-protest

 

[meridian2]

Whatever, the anti-fascists are protesting against a truly horrible group here and their protest is absolutely 100% justified.

If they understood the complex socio-political issues surrounding fascism,perhaps, but these are 'hangers-on' with no grasp of their cause let alone what they're supposed to be 'fighting against;.

Reactionaries looking for a fight

 

[nw1]

So you would happily use fascism to combat the fascists? Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy there? :roll:

Thing is, it's not just you, it's a quite a few people here and it seems like you've tried to round on Jonny which is unfair.

If someone has a different opinion to you, you have no right to try and silence them. In a democratic society, whether you agree with someone is not the issue. They have a right to say whatever they want, just as you do.

As soon as it becomes actions then that's a different matter entirely.

If there are "scuffles" then that is a criminal issue and nothing to do with views that are held by those people.

I'm sure many will now respond with "You're a nazi sympathiser or you're a fascist" but actually, people, you need to have a good long look at yourselves before trying to SILENCE free voices in a free society.

Anti-fascism my @rce, you're just anti-people who don't agree with you.

But does that argument extend to allowing fundamentalist or "Real IRA" groups to march through Liverpool in support of terrorism? I suspect any sane person would say "no".

There has to be a line which divides "acceptable" views with "extremist" ones (likely to have severe consequences if tolerated - in the neonazis' case, violence against ethnic minorities) and it just seems to be a question of where you draw the line. To my mind that lies somewhere between UKIP (not my cup of tea by a long shot, but unlikely to promote violence and thus 'acceptable') and these fascist groups. Other people may differ.

 

[Camden]

When the EDL marched in Manchester earlier this year an alternative to a counter-protest march was held at Manchester Cathedral

http://www.manchestercathedral.org/news/330/mancunians-urged-to-simply-ignore-edl-protest

While that may be true, I recall a good deal of disruption still ensued. In fairness to the situation being spoken of here, the matter was dealt with inside 30 minutes of the protest's arrival in town with them being bundled straight back out with what looks like only a few bits of banana peel and litter left to be mopped up

https://twitter.com/Robin_Henry/status/632592371369287680

 

[meridian2]

But does that argument extend to allowing fundamentalist or "Real IRA" groups to march through Liverpool in support of terrorism? I suspect any sane person would say "no".

There has to be a line which divides "acceptable" views with "extremist" ones (likely to have severe consequences if tolerated - in the neonazis' case, violence against ethnic minorities) and it just seems to be a question of where you draw the line. To my mind that lies somewhere between UKIP (not my cup of tea by a long shot, but unlikely to promote violence and thus 'acceptable') and these fascist groups. Other people may differ.

It's far more complicated than that,and I still believe what happened was done for attention,not for any higher goal or cause.

 

[yorkie]

So you would happily use fascism to combat the fascists? Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy there? :roll:

Thing is, it's not just you, it's a quite a few people here and it seems like you've tried to round on Jonny which is unfair.

If someone has a different opinion to you, you have no right to try and silence them. In a democratic society, whether you agree with someone is not the issue. They have a right to say whatever they want, just as you do.

As soon as it becomes actions then that's a different matter entirely.

Actually, no they do not. They do not have the right to say whatever they want. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_and_Religious_Hatred_Act_2006

If there are "scuffles" then that is a criminal issue and nothing to do with views that are held by those people.

I'm sure many will now respond with "You're a nazi sympathiser or you're a fascist" but actually, people, you need to have a good long look at yourselves before trying to SILENCE free voices in a free society.

Anti-fascism my @rce, you're just anti-people who don't agree with you.

Hmmm...

 

[pemma]

While that may be true, I recall a good deal of disruption still ensued.

Indeed. However, it gave different options for people who wanted to show they are against what the EDL stand for. Marching with an anti-facist group wasn't the only option.

 

[PHILIPE]

But does that argument extend to allowing fundamentalist or "Real IRA" groups to march through Liverpool in support of terrorism? I suspect any sane person would say "no".

There has to be a line which divides "acceptable" views with "extremist" ones (likely to have severe consequences if tolerated - in the neonazis' case, violence against ethnic minorities) and it just seems to be a question of where you draw the line. To my mind that lies somewhere between UKIP (not my cup of tea by a long shot, but unlikely to promote violence and thus 'acceptable') and these fascist groups. Other people may differ.

Jeremy Corbyn would support them referring to them as "Freedom Fighters" rather than terrorists.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Jeremy Corbyn would support them referring to them as "Freedom Fighters" rather than terrorists.

If he did, he'd be right though. As George Carlin said, "crimefighters fight crime and firefighters fight fires, what do freedom fighters fight?"

 

[zuriblue]

Sounds about right, it looked as if only 20-30 nazi's turned up, and thus were all able to fit in the luggage shop. Also, the police line which surrounded the right wing group meant that the anti-fascit's couldn't even reach them anyway.

Not a huge surprise. The EDL membership rolls took a big hit a few months ago when about 50 EDL muppets were sent down for 1-2 years apiece following a riot in Birmingham

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/edl-rioters-who-terrorised-birmingham-8416133

 

[Michael.Y]

Intolerance of intolerance is not fascism.

 

[Chew Chew]

Intolerance of intolerance is not fascism.

It is to those who might be a bit lacking upstairs.

Are those who claim this really saying that the likes of the Ku Klux Klan should be allowed to march wherever they want without people protesting against their disgusting ideologies?

Closer to home I hope the bigoted Orange Order marches are protested against in a similar vein soon but that is for another thread.

 

[fowler9]

I think there is a worthwhile debate here. I think that some of the Anti Fascist protesters are indeed no better than the Nazis, they were very similarly dressed, all in black with their faces covered, and the far left is but a stones through from the far right. I do however think that a lot of the people protesting in Liverpool were not affiliated with any protest group and just didn't want Nazis marching through our streets, any more than they would want the paedophile information exchange marching through our streets in the name of free speech. This may sound like quite a leap but I am pretty sure that espousing racist views can get you in a fair bit of trouble in most workplaces or in public just the same. You can say what you like, you also have the right to get in trouble for it.

 

[St Rollox]

The extreme rightwingers in the UK never seem to quite get the march/rally thing.

Every time I read about them they seem to be getting chased around some town centre by young teenagers/students.

The final bit is them getting saved by the local cops.

You'd think after decades of this some old timer would set them straight. Even from a distance it's obvious they're highly infiltrated by the same people that are chasing after them.

 

[zuriblue]

The extreme rightwingers in the UK never seem to quite get the march/rally thing.

Every time I read about them they seem to be getting chased around some town centre by young teenagers/students.

The final bit is them getting saved by the local cops.

You'd think after decades of this some old timer would set them straight. Even from a distance it's obvious they're highly infiltrated by the same people that are chasing after them.

The other thing is that they are extremely divided. Many of these groups are just one or two blokes, a banner and a dog and when many of these groups come together there tends to be an almighty ruck. A lot of the time you just get UAF or whatever standing by laughing as the BNP muppets and the EDL muppets knock seven bells out of one another. (BNP, whose roots are in old fashioned fascism going back to Mosley and co particularly dislike EDL, most of whom are football hooligans)

 

[dakta]

I'll be honest, whilst I can't stand people with opinions you could assosciate to some of these 'fascist' groups, I actually get equally annoyed with those who feel the need to cause trouble, or react in some way that could escalate matters.

Someones got an opinion you don't like, and it's pretty extreme. Big deal.

It's life, there are going to be groups of people who are totally out of whack with what you believe. They might even be absolutely vile, fine, but one of the best things about this country is (up to now anyway) you have the freedom to be anywhere on the scale you want to be. Beleive in the EDL crap if you like, you won't have many friends, but you have that freedom.

Now, it goes without saying that most people are not giving these 'fascists' the time of day, so what harm can they do? They aren't going to become a political heavyweight with the popularity they enjoy.

For that reason I find the idea of 'counter marches' little more than thuggish escalation. The best offence to groups protesting for things you don't care for is indifference. You won't have any moral high-ground if you're out there doing the wrong thing for what you call 'the right reasons'.


What scares me more than fascism and the EDL stuff (not just EDL but you get my drift), is a society where we have to be so surgically clean and conform to an alternative view of whats 'right'. Like a perfect society, that's so squeaky clean its uncomfortable, with the 'perfect person and accepted views to hold' being something decided for you. Which is something that sounds just as close as I want to be as some of the EDL stuff.

Basically what I'm putting forward is a bit of a 'live and let live', some people want to have a march about something 99% of people find vile, for me its not enough to warrant people dropping into mob mode to get them 'outta their tarn'.

You don't have to worry about the far right groups really, its not like they have a lot of support on one of their good days. You don't have to do anything.

 

[St Rollox]

The other thing is that they are extremely divided. Many of these groups are just one or two blokes, a banner and a dog and when many of these groups come together there tends to be an almighty ruck. A lot of the time you just get UAF or whatever standing by laughing as the BNP muppets and the EDL muppets knock seven bells out of one another. (BNP, whose roots are in old fashioned fascism going back to Mosley and co particularly dislike EDL, most of whom are football hooligans)

There definitely a history regarding the extreme right.
Even something like the origins of the British Legion were pretty tainted with the far right.
I understand the ignorance of those in the past but in a technological age such as ours with knowledge of DNA, which in turns tells us how recently our ancestors have been on these islands.
Everything points to all present day humans having African origins.
Just brings me back to the extreme right not being that bright.

 

[ExRes]

There definitely a history regarding the extreme right.
Even something like the origins of the British Legion were pretty tainted with the far right.
I understand the ignorance of those in the past but in a technological age such as ours with knowledge of DNA, which in turns tells us how recently our ancestors have been on these islands.
Everything points to all present day humans having African origins.
Just brings me back to the extreme right not being that bright.

What on earth have the British Legion got to do with anything, they were founded in the early 19th C to fight against Spain in South America, or are you trying to rubbish an organisation that has cared for Ex Services personnel of all denominations, races and colours since 1921 and is actually known as the Royal British Legion ?

 

[St Rollox]

What on earth have the British Legion got to do with anything, they were founded in the early 19th C to fight against Spain in South America, or are you trying to rubbish an organisation that has cared for Ex Services personnel of all denominations, races and colours since 1921 and is actually known as the Royal British Legion ?

Founded in 1921 from four groups.
One of of which was the Comrades of the Great War.
Pretty tasty bunch.
There was a overlap in the 1930's with many British Legion members being involved with Mosley's British Union of Fascists.

 

[ExRes]

A pretty tasty bunch ?

This bunch ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...rArsAL&usg=AFQjCNGGzeDVs_C67QcOXVoCaVWDB_wVFg

It was claimed that the BUF had a close relationship with the Suffragette movement, does that make them a 'pretty tasty bunch' as well ?

 

[St Rollox]

A pretty tasty bunch ?

This bunch ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...rArsAL&usg=AFQjCNGGzeDVs_C67QcOXVoCaVWDB_wVFg

It was claimed that the BUF had a close relationship with the Suffragette movement, does that make them a 'pretty tasty bunch' as well ?

So you don't think there's a connection with the history of the far right and ex servicemen.
Mussolini, Franco and that German nutter.
Bit of a pattern.
See the British Legion and the General Strike of 1926.
I met men who fought in WW1 and they certainly didn't view the 1920/30s British Legion as a benign welfare group.
Thousands of working class people back then refused to wear a poppy because of certain chap called Earl Haig, lions led by donkeys and all that.

 

[fowler9]

I'll be honest, whilst I can't stand people with opinions you could assosciate to some of these 'fascist' groups, I actually get equally annoyed with those who feel the need to cause trouble, or react in some way that could escalate matters.

Someones got an opinion you don't like, and it's pretty extreme. Big deal.

It's life, there are going to be groups of people who are totally out of whack with what you believe. They might even be absolutely vile, fine, but one of the best things about this country is (up to now anyway) you have the freedom to be anywhere on the scale you want to be. Beleive in the EDL crap if you like, you won't have many friends, but you have that freedom.

Now, it goes without saying that most people are not giving these 'fascists' the time of day, so what harm can they do? They aren't going to become a political heavyweight with the popularity they enjoy.

For that reason I find the idea of 'counter marches' little more than thuggish escalation. The best offence to groups protesting for things you don't care for is indifference. You won't have any moral high-ground if you're out there doing the wrong thing for what you call 'the right reasons'.


What scares me more than fascism and the EDL stuff (not just EDL but you get my drift), is a society where we have to be so surgically clean and conform to an alternative view of whats 'right'. Like a perfect society, that's so squeaky clean its uncomfortable, with the 'perfect person and accepted views to hold' being something decided for you. Which is something that sounds just as close as I want to be as some of the EDL stuff.

Basically what I'm putting forward is a bit of a 'live and let live', some people want to have a march about something 99% of people find vile, for me its not enough to warrant people dropping into mob mode to get them 'outta their tarn'.

You don't have to worry about the far right groups really, its not like they have a lot of support on one of their good days. You don't have to do anything.

So neo Nazis can have marches, the far left can have marches, just not at the same time in case it kicks off, and you say you are worried about the world being too sanitized? Mate if only for purely selfish reasons I don't want Neo Nazis marching through Liverpool when we have a cruise ship docked. By all means invite them to your town. For more personal reasons I don't want Neo Nazis marching through Liverpool. You see it is dead easy to say "You should just let them" when it isn't your home.

 

[dakta]

You see it is dead easy to say "You should just let them" when it isn't your home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22344054

Dewsbury is my home.

I don't care what colour you are, what religion you/anyone happens to be, or even what your opinion is (i.e im fairly neutral politically and across the board really). I'm more of a karma sort of person - If you're going out of your way to cause trouble, you're trouble even if you think you've a squeaky clean arse and have some kind of right to go out of your way to antagonise.

So neo Nazis can have marches, the far left can have marches, just not at the same time in case it kicks off

The far left (or far right or vice versa, they're both as bad) tend to organise marches in response to marches. You make it sound like an innocent coincidence. When you hear someone protesting something you don't want to hear, and you find yourself trying to shout down the opposition (or in this case, doing a march in more or less the same place at the same time) you're going to stir trouble.

And if it does (it doesn't always) but when it does, nobody in my opinion has any moral high ground.

 

[St Rollox]

Personally i don't see the problem slapping a member of the Adolf Fan Club.

 

[dakta]

There's a lot of people out there who feel the same way as you , but if someone actually did, and they were seen, arrested, charged and tried for assault then unfortunately it'd be fair cop.

I get the impression (could be wrong) most people are relatively balanced, extremes of any sort tend to be a minority, is a march really such a big deal? Do we really have to drop our standards to make a point the extremists are already well aware of?

A lot of these protests (I suspect the dewsbury one too) are done to create attention, thats why I said indifference is the best weapon. The likes of EDL etc wont get anywhere. Unpleasant as they may be, there's seriously no need to bomb them