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National Grid warns of possible blackouts

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HSTEd

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On the other hand, if they have to have them though, I'd suggest after 5pm as otherwise it could be disruptive to the working day and force early closures of businesses.
But disrupting and closing businesses and thus forcing them to stop using energy is the point

Thing is if there was world gas shortage why has the world gas price dropped to 192p/therm down from the eye watering 700+p/therm in September. No mention of this in the media who happily shouted the high price from the rooftops. Anybody think the media is looking for a major crisis to panic the public after covid. Also maybe if they stopped demolishing gas holders we would have somewhere to store gas. We could by it in bulk when it was cheap.
Because the gas storage in Europe is full and heating season hasn't started yet.

There is less people to sell gas to and the gas is still coming out of the ground at the same rate it always does.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Except you need electricity for the router. Otherwise you're stuck with expensive data charges.

As I said above, bringing forward the return to BST will help if this does indeed become a serious threat. At least you can do things in the house, or go out for a walk, if it's light for most of the 4-7 period.

Expensive data charges? Remind me, what year is it again?
 

AM9

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The VDSL Openreach green cabinets should be self-powering for 24 hours. At least, that was the original spec - things may have changed since.
Not sure why they shut down so quick but presumably there would have been a massive increase in traffic as soon as the domestic power went off.
 

GS250

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Hopefully they will have UPS/backup generators to cover the outages if they're expected to be a few hours.

Most UPS batteries in small/medium size businesses last on average 2 hours with an average load. That's also depending on the condition of the battery too. Given the financial constraints of the last few years I do wonder how many batteries that are not in the best of condition and will barely give half an hour.
 

najaB

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Most UPS batteries in small/medium size businesses last on average 2 hours with an average load. That's also depending on the condition of the battery too. Given the financial constraints of the last few years I do wonder how many batteries that are not in the best of condition and will barely give half an hour.
Perhaps this is an opportunity to enter the battery supply business? ;)
 

nw1

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But disrupting and closing businesses and thus forcing them to stop using energy is the point


I thought it was to reduce energy usage in homes to be honest.


If it is the point, it's, in my view a bad one. But I rather suspect it isn't otherwise they'd choose a three-hour period right in the middle of the day, as that would be perfectly timed to cause the maximum amount of disruption. Unless the aim is to get them to close before dark?


If so, by the time we get to mid February and the nights have drawn out a bit, I hope they can move the starting time back from 4pm.


Expensive data charges? Remind me, what year is it again?

Well they are, relatively speaking, for me. Plus slow. But I will admit I don't like contracts, I'm still on pay as you go. I find them too binding.
 
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Dai Corner

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I thought it was to reduce energy usage in homes to be honest.

If it is the point, it's, in my view a bad one. But I rather suspect it isn't otherwise they'd choose a three-hour period right in the middle of the day, as that would be perfectly timed to cause the maximum amount of disruption. Unless the aim is to get them to close before dark?

If so, by the time we get to mid February and the nights have drawn out a bit, I hope they can move the starting time back from 4pm.
It's to reduce the peak demand, when some people are getting home and putting the heating, cooker and other appliances on while others are still at work, using electricity there.

That's when we're at risk of running out of generating capacity.
 

nw1

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It's to reduce the peak demand, when some people are getting home and putting the heating, cooker and other appliances on while others are still at work, using electricity there.

That's when we're at risk of running out of generating capacity.

OK, that makes sense.

But the article does mention "really, really cold days". That would suggest to me days when the max temp is around or just above freezing, which are decidely rare these days.

If this article is taken as gospel, if we get a typically-mild modern winter, there's a good chance it won't happen at all.
 

Dai Corner

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OK, that makes sense.

But the article does mention "really, really cold days". That would suggest to me days when the max temp is around or just above freezing, which are decidely rare these days.

If this article is taken as gospel, if we get a typically-mild modern winter, there's a good chance it won't happen at all.
Correct.

There is also work going on that will enable smartmeter users to receive rebates if they minimise their electricity usage at peak times.

I'm hoping the rebate will be enough to pay for my beer if I switch everything off and go the pub between 4 and 7 :D
 

cactustwirly

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  • Still cheaper than your ICE car to run, even with current electricity costs. Even at extortionate fast DC chargers at the motorway service station, it's not more than about £15 / 100mi with (my mostly urban-area) real-world driving. Diesel when I last looked at a comparable motorway service station was close to 195p / litre, you're looking at about £17-18 for the same 100 miles for avg mpg from a Golf. At home, with current electricity costs (33p per kWh), the same 100 miles cost is about £10 and I imagine diesel is closer to 181p / litre. With a real-world economy 7 tariff that same 100 miles would cost less than a fiver (£4.60 at 15.46p) if you charged overnight.
  • The great thing about having a battery in the car is that it doesn't really matter if you charge at 3am or 5pm. Generally very easy to shift the home-charging around in the day which is exactly why EV-targeted tariffs with cheaper rates at off-peak times are so popular!
So yeah, no regrets here whatsoever :lol:

Depends whether it is motorway driving.
My last tank of Diesel was 177.7 a litre, I can get 65mpg on the motorway so that's only £12.25 for £100 miles which is cheaper than using a fast charger.
With day to day driving it will be closer to £17 yes.

Also depends on the outside temperature and if you're heating the car/using air conditioning as well. These will significantly lower your range of the electric car.
 

najaB

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If this article is taken as gospel, if we get a typically-mild modern winter, there's a good chance it won't happen at all.
Of course, long range forecasting is still a dark art, but the La Niña trend is still very much indicating a colder then average winter for the northern hemisphere.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Well they are, relatively speaking, for me. Plus slow. But I will admit I don't like contracts, I'm still on pay as you go. I find them too binding.
Move to Giff Gaff. Other companies may offer something similar.

Buy a monthly bundle of data / calls / texts (they call it a Goody Bag), repeat every month (or take a break between eg if away on holiday), increase or decrease the size of the goody bag as you find necessary. You can buy each single month on-line or set up a direct debit (better deals for DD). You're only committed for the month you buy.

EDIT: I assumed you were referring to mobile phone tariffs rather than ye olde copper wire or fibre.

As for changing the clocks, I never understood why people don't change their personal habits instead of trying to force their ideal times on everyone else. Want an extra hour of daylight in the pub - set out from home an hour earlier, leave before closing time - it is allowed. Adjust your personal times as you would if you had to work in tandem with colleagues in European, American or Japanese offices.

Correct.

There is also work going on that will enable smartmeter users to receive rebates if they minimise their electricity usage at peak times.

I'm hoping the rebate will be enough to pay for my beer if I switch everything off and go the pub between 4 and 7 :D

Some information here, mostly a rehash of previous stories on the same subject.
Article in The Guardian

National Grid to pay households more to use off-peak power​

Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per KW hour to boost use at night and take strain off power grid.

National Grid has significantly increased its financial incentive for households that shift their power usage away from peak times as part of a renewed effort to prevent rolling power cuts.

Its electricity system operator (ESO) has increased the incentive sixfold to £3 per kilowatt hour (kW/h) to encourage households to use their washing machines and appliances late at night, which could mean typical savings of £100 this winter.

National Grid warned this month that homes could face three-hour power cuts if Russia blocks gas supplies into Europe and Britain experiences sustained cold weather, increasing the amount that households use for heating. In response, it has beefed up plans for businesses and households to participate in its “demand flexibility service”, which launches next month.

Writing exclusively for the Guardian, Fintan Slye, the director of National Grid ESO, said on Thursday: “Businesses and homes can become virtual power plants and, crucially, get paid like one too.

“For a consumer that could mean a typical household could save approximately £100 and, for industrial and commercial businesses with larger energy usage, they could potentially save multiples of this.”

The ESO had originally planned to pay households with smart meters about 52p per kilowatt hour in credit via their energy suppliers if they avoid using appliances at times when high demand puts strain on the system.

However, the introduction of support for businesses and households announced by Liz Truss last month made the scheme less attractive, at the equivalent of 34p per kW/h.

As a result, the ESO said it expects to pay the equivalent of £3 per kW/h, “as feedback indicates this will unlock the majority of the available volume”.

This money will be paid to suppliers in the form of a £3,000 per megawatt hour (MW/h) minimum price, and those payments could go higher.

Slye said he was “confident” the scheme could free up about 2 gigawatts (GW) of power, enough for about 1m homes.

As businesses consume far more energy than domestic customers, their savings could be much higher.

Only Octopus Energy, which piloted the initiative earlier this year, has formally signed up. However, it is understood E.ON and Ovo are among those interested in signing up.

Under a similar scheme also launching next month, Ovo customers who use less than 12.5% of the energy they consume in a day between the peak hours of 4pm and 7pm will receive £20 for each month they hit this target. The five-month trial from 1 November could save them £100 as a result.

The more firms and homes that sign up to the ESO plan, the greater the reduction in the pressure on the energy network with consumers putting on their washing machine or appliances at night instead of busier periods.

Octopus and E.ON had claimed the energy discount incentive was too low, arguing that fewer people would sign up as a result, the Times reported last month.

Slye also detailed how National Grid would inform households if there were to be power cuts this winter. He said consumers would receive 24 hours notice and social media influencers could even be called on to spread the message.

He wrote: “We are working with government and industry on planning for this so that the message can be spread across all communities as quickly and accurately as possible. This would include press conferences, social media campaigns, and working with influencers in different communities.”
 
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najaB

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Want an extra hour of daylight in the pub - set out from home an hour earlier, leave before closing time - it is allowed. Adjust your personal times as you would if you had to work in tandem with colleagues in European, American or Japanese offices.
Which is only an option if you are able to set your own working hours.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Which is only an option if you are able to set your own working hours.
Indeed, and I don't want to derail the thread - as there is one running somewhere on this very subject. No arrangement of hours will ever suit everyone. At the end of the day (so to speak) there are 'x' minutes of daylight between sunrise and sunset, whatever label (hour number) you put on them. To me, 12 midday (or 12 noon, or 1200) should be when the sun is highest in the sky rather than exactly half-way between sunrise and sunset. All year.
 

Sm5

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In the event of any three-hour blackouts I think that I'll just light the candles and whip out the Monopoly board. That said, maybe the resulting state of the living room would be taking the blitz spirit a bit too far, so I don't know. With any luck this won't happen but with how much of a mess the Truss Government has made of things I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with a minimum of 15 minute blackouts.
You have to excuse me but I read this, saw your username and I thought you said…

In the event of any three-hour blackouts I think that I'll just light the candles and whip out the ouija board

:D

raising the dead is certainly one way of creating energy.
 

Sorcerer

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You have to excuse me but I read this, saw your username and I thought you said…

In the event of any three-hour blackouts I think that I'll just light the candles and whip out the ouija board

:D

raising the dead is certainly one way of creating energy.
Well I mean, I won't rule anything out. ;)
 

Sm5

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We're already preparing for the worst at work (large private school). Considering how more or less the entire curriculum is delivered by IT these days it's going to be interesting to see what happens here.

4pm may cover us for lessons but unless you have 2-3x the average of UPS batteries...all those servers need to be powered off gracefully and then powered back on again once the cut is over. And as anyone else who works in IT knows....they don't always come back as they should!

And it's not just schools that run IT to say the least......

Its going to be a nightmare for IT administrators and Network Managers with onsite servers.

Lots has moved up into the cloud but there's still plenty running VM's on their own premises.
any good IT facility should have dual redundant generators, ups
The better ones have have things like flywheels, natural gas generators, even to the point of fuel sources originating in different countries to avoid contamination.

IT will be fine, if its not, someone will be up for the big one.
 

GS250

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Depends whether it is motorway driving.
My last tank of Diesel was 177.7 a litre, I can get 65mpg on the motorway so that's only £12.25 for £100 miles which is cheaper than using a fast charger.
With day to day driving it will be closer to £17 yes.

Also depends on the outside temperature and if you're heating the car/using air conditioning as well. These will significantly lower your range of the electric car.

any good IT facility should have dual redundant generators, ups
The better ones have have things like flywheels, natural gas generators, even to the point of fuel sources originating in different countries to avoid contamination.

IT will be fine, if its not, someone will be up for the big one.

I suppose the corporate world will have stuff like that.

But I can't imagine most small to medium sized businesses will.
 

Dai Corner

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I suppose the corporate world will have stuff like that.

But I can't imagine most small to medium sized businesses will.
Very unlikely.

As the IT Manager of a secondary school I found it very difficult to get budget for a UPS. "
Most small to medium businesses that use IT will use cloud services these days. So as long as the mobile networks are up, they can work.
Well, as long as their Internet connection is working.
 

Bletchleyite

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Very unlikely.

As the IT Manager of a secondary school I found it very difficult to get budget for a UPS. "

Well, as long as their Internet connection is working.

The vast majority of people will have a decent smartphone with a data contract in their pocket. The real world is nowhere near as Luddite as this Forum seems to be. My relatively technophobe Dad even does.

From what device ? Mains powered desktop PCs are still common.

Far, far less common than they used to be. COVID drove a significant proportion of businesses to switch to either laptops, Citrix terminals (which can be accessed from a personal device) etc. And the fact that a laptop provides resilience of both power and the ability to decamp somewhere else to continue service has driven that change.

Of course there are some businesses where security requirements mean that isn't possible, but from experience these are a relative minority. Even banks use a lot of laptops these days.
 

Sm5

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I suppose the corporate world will have stuff like that.

But I can't imagine most small to medium sized businesses will.
If theyve got their own website etc, its more likely to be hosted, either as a website, or as a server in a colo.

And they will provide the 3x backup, 4 x redundancy etc as part of the package they are paying for.

Many very small retailers have 3G credit card machines etc.
 

Dai Corner

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The vast majority of people will have a decent smartphone with a data contract in their pocket. The real world is nowhere near as Luddite as this Forum seems to be. My relatively technophobe Dad even does
Do you think the mobile network (even if it's equipped with UPSs) could deliver the bandwidth required?
 

Ediswan

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Far, far less common than they used to be.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on how much less common. The pharmacy I went to yesterday for a vaccination was using a desktop. The last place I worked had many dual (or triple) screen systems, even after covid adjustments.
 
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najaB

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Most small to medium businesses that use IT will use cloud services these days. So as long as the mobile networks are up, they can work.
A significant percentage, but I don't think it's most yet. At least not for all services if the size of our backup business is anything you go by.
 

GS250

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Do you think the mobile network (even if it's equipped with UPSs) could deliver the bandwidth required?

More importantly...what about security? Most corporate networks have some kind of firewall. I suppose you could connect a phone via a VPN and then set it up as a hotspot??
 

Bletchleyite

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Do you think the mobile network (even if it's equipped with UPSs) could deliver the bandwidth required?

Yes, without doubt. The bandwidth requirement is very, very low.

More importantly...what about security? Most corporate networks have some kind of firewall. I suppose you could connect a phone via a VPN and then set it up as a hotspot??

The usual approach is a VPN on the laptop. These processes are well established. There is nothing to invent.
 

Sm5

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IT wont have a much of an issue for a few hours.

isolated outages (ie the back office server, printer etc of some unprepared office etc) may drop, but the internet is not going to stop.

Y2K this is not… and that didnt stop the Net either
 
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