Near impossible connection.

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bignosemac

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I am currently traveling to Folkestone from Salisbury on a route: Barnham Anytime Day Return ticket. I missed a connection listed on my itinerary.

I purchased the ticket online from redspottedhanky.com and my itinerary gave me changes at Cosham, Redhill and Tonbridge.

More fool me but I didn't check the itinerary carefully until I was at Cosham. Here are the timings I was given:

Dep Salisbury 0832
Arr Cosham 0935
Dep Cosham 0946
Arr Redhill 1115
Dep Redhill 1118
Arr Tonbridge 1148
Dep Tonbridge 1220
Arr Folkestone Central 1319

The problem connection is the one highlighted. redspottedhanky have given me a 3 minute connection at a station where National Rail Enquiries says the minimum official connection time is 5 minutes.

My train into Redhill was a couple of minutes late and I saw the 1118 to Tonbridge depart on time just as I got to the stairs.

I've phoned both Southern and redspottedhanky. Southern say as the connection is below the minimum they are not liable for the delay caused by the slightly late arrival from Cosham. redspottedhanky are adamant the connection is official (I'm deeply sceptical) and say a claim for the delay to my journey needs to be submitted to the TOC.

Arriving an hour late into Folkestone will fupp up my day and I'm at a loss how to proceed with a claim for compensation for the delay.

I have a printed itinerary, and as I've checked the journey again on redspottedhanky.com (using tomorrow's date) and it again shows the tight unnofficial connection at Redhill.
 
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wintonian

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I am currently traveling to Folkestone from Salisbury on a route: Barnham Anytime Day Return ticket. I missed a connection listed on my itinerary.

I purchased the ticket online from redspottedhanky.com and my itinerary gave me changes at Cosham, Redhill and Tonbridge.

More fool me but I didn't check the itinerary carefully until I was at Cosham. Here are the timings I was given:

Dep Salisbury 0832
Arr Cosham 0935
Dep Cosham 0946
Arr Redhill 1115
Dep Redhill 1118
Arr Tonbridge 1148
Dep Tonbridge 1220
Arr Folkestone Central 1319

The problem connection is the one highlighted. redspottedhanky have given me a 3 minute connection at a station where National Rail Enquiries says the minimum official connection time is 5 minutes.

My train into Redhill was a couple of minutes late and I saw the 1118 to Tonbridge depart on time just as I got to the stairs.

I've phoned both Southern and redspottedhanky. Southern say as the connection is below the minimum they are not liable for the delay caused by the slightly late arrival from Cosham. redspottedhanky are adamant the connection is official (I'm deeply sceptical) and say a claim for the delay to my journey needs to be submitted to the TOC.

Arriving an hour late into Folkestone will fupp up my day and I'm at a loss how to proceed with a claim for compensation for the delay.

I have a printed itinerary, and as I've checked the journey again on redspottedhanky.com (using tomorrow's date) and it again shows the tight unnofficial connection at Redhill.
Write to RSH if they maintain that it is an 'offcial' connection in their letter the you can send that to Southern with you compensation claim, see what they come back with and go from there?
 

barrykas

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Looking at the eNRT, whilst the standard connection time at Redhill is 5 minutes, a sub-standard time of 3 minutes is allowed where both trains are operated by Southern, which in this case they are.

Page 7 of the "Commercial Information" section, downloadable (as a PDF) from this page refers.

Cheers,

Barry
 

mirodo

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I couldn't replicate your full journey, but searching for CSA-TON on the National Rail website's journey planner allows the itinerary you were given.
 

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Paul Kelly

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I agree with barrykas - the information is also in the timetable information that ATOC make available for free download from data.atoc.org. There is a separate file of "hacks" where minimum interchange time is overridden at various locations based on the operator of the trains being changed from and to. Is it possible that this short interchange time is intended for people making cross-platform changes at Redhill on trains that are both going in the same direction?
 

Greenback

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I agree with barrykas - the information is also in the timetable information that ATOC make available for free download from data.atoc.org. There is a separate file of "hacks" where minimum interchange time is overridden at various locations based on the operator of the trains being changed from and to. Is it possible that this short interchange time is intended for people making cross-platform changes at Redhill on trains that are both going in the same direction?
That may be the intention, but the interpretation of the journey planner and, i would suggest, most peop reading the eNRT, would be that the connection time is 3 minutes between Southern trains no matter what direction or directions are involved.
 

bignosemac

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Looking at the eNRT, whilst the standard connection time at Redhill is 5 minutes, a sub-standard time of 3 minutes is allowed where both trains are operated by Southern, which in this case they are.

Page 7 of the "Commercial Information" section, downloadable (as a PDF) from this page refers.

Cheers,

Barry
Thanks muchly for that barrykas, that's the ammunition I need to put in a delay repay claim to Southern. redspottedhanky were right after all. My scepticism was unfounded!

BUT, my itinerary has got a route via London Bridge for the return journey:

Dep Folkestone Central 1636
Arr London Bridge 1816
Dep London Bridge 1827
Arr East Croydon 1841
Dep East Croydon 1848
Arr Fareham 2036
Dep Fareham 2047
Arr Salisbury 2139

Whilst this journey fulfills the need to travel via Barnham, it can't be right that the itinerary is telling me to travel via London. Gonna go for it though. Wish me luck!
 
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yorkie

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Southern say as the connection is below the minimum they are not liable for the delay caused by the slightly late arrival from Cosham..
Southern giving out poor advice again? Not surprising! I would definitely submit a claim, and make a copy of the tickets before you send them, if you do not get a suitable response then write straight to their (overrated) MD, Chris Burchell, who will probably get Liam Ludlow to write back to you.

Southern do eventually pay up when they are in the wrong, in our experience, even when they try to make false claims, you just have to keep pestering them! ;)<D

Please do let us know how you get on. Hopefully Southern will accept that they are wrong without too much of an argument!
 

jon0844

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a sub-standard time of 3 minutes is allowed where both trains are operated by Southern, which in this case they are.
Have you double checked that one isn't Southern and the other is S0uthern? They could be two totally separate companies. :lol:
 

bb21

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Unless your ticket was an advanced return or single or any such ticket that you had to travel on a timed service say for example the 1118 and you missed it and had to pay for a standard single, I would doubt it will be a valid claim.

If it was delayed for say operational purposes, say a signal/points failure and meant you would miss your timed connection Southern Trains would make allowances by asking the guard to except Customers from the previous train because it wasn't your fault you missed your train.
There is no reason why the claim is not valid. The passenger had a valid itinerary, was delayed en route, missed the connection and therefore was late arriving at the destination by enough to cross the threshold of 30 minutes.

Southern has to pay out under the terms of Delay Repay as the delay occurred originally on their service.

Thanks muchly for that barrykas, that's the ammunition I need to put in a delay repay claim to Southern. redspottedhanky were right after all. My scepticism was unfounded!

BUT, my itinerary has got a route via London Bridge for the return journey:

Dep Folkestone Central 1636
Arr London Bridge 1816
Dep London Bridge 1827
Arr East Croydon 1841
Dep East Croydon 1848
Arr Fareham 2036
Dep Fareham 2047
Arr Salisbury 2139

Whilst this journey fulfills the need to travel via Barnham, it can't be right that the itinerary is telling me to travel via London. Gonna go for it though. Wish me luck!
It is valid without a doubt. The only restriction on your ticket is that you travel on a permitted route that goes via (passes through) Barnham. Your itinerary clearly does that, therefore it is valid.
 

bignosemac

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It is valid without a doubt. The only restriction on your ticket is that you travel on a permitted route that goes via (passes through) Barnham. Your itinerary clearly does that, therefore it is valid.
You say that, but there are no mapped permitted routes that I can see in the Routeing Guide that allow Folkestone to Salisbury via London Bridge with a route:Barnham ticket. Fails the shortest distance rule by a long way also.

Trying to force that route into and out of London Bridge for Salisbury to Folkestone brings up nothing. Not quite sure how WebTIS' booking engine is interpreting things by only giving me the option via LBG on the return leg and then only on the 1636 ex Folkestone Central.

My actual outward journey as listed upthread was permitted using the shortest route rule, despite not being mapped, if my maths is correct. Going via Barnham, Redhill and Tonbridge is permitted as it is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route from Salisbury to Folkestone via Barnham. That would be (I think!) via Barnham, Brighton, into and out of Eastbourne and on to Ashford Intl via Hastings. That's if you exclude the line between Romsey and Fareham via Eastleigh which sees an infrequent service and very poor connection opportunities versus Southampton. Just not sure you can exclude a route when calculating shortest distance. But maybe that's what WebTIS is doing.

Still, it was a good bash all round, despite having an hour less in Folkestone, and I had no problems on the return journey. Even bagged a short run on a (not Gatwick) Express Wessie from London Bridge to East Croydon!

And yes, I will submit the Delay Repay forthwith and let you know how I get on. I may be a bit devilish and fail to mention the permitted Southern-Southern 3 minute connection at Redhill, see what response that draws!

EDIT: By the way the via Barnham fares are a steal for bashing the south coast. £26 for an Anytime Day Return (£24 CDR) which can be bought from Weymouth in the west to Broadstairs in the east. And with all the strange routeings that booking engines throw up that's quite some mileage.
 
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bb21

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You say that, but there are no mapped permitted routes that I can see in the Routeing Guide that allow Folkestone to Salisbury via London Bridge with a route:Barnham ticket. Fails the shortest distance rule by a long way also.
While I agree that it does not appear to be a mapped route, you purchased the ticket on the basis of that itinerary and I do believe that it should give you strong enough backing if/when challenged.

My actual outward journey as listed upthread was permitted using the shortest route rule, despite not being mapped, if my maths is correct. Going via Barnham, Redhill and Tonbridge is permitted as it is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route from Salisbury to Folkestone via Barnham. That would be (I think!) via Barnham, Brighton, into and out of Eastbourne and on to Ashford Intl via Hastings. That's if you exclude the line between Romsey and Fareham via Eastleigh which sees an infrequent service and very poor connection opportunities versus Southampton. Just not sure you can exclude a route when calculating shortest distance. But maybe that's what WebTIS is doing.
I agree that if you compare your outbound itinerary (161.5 miles) with the shortest route between Salisbury and Folkestone Central via Barnham (158.5 miles), it is within the 3-mile margin.

I think different interpretations are possible as to whether geographical restrictions take precedence over shortest routes, however I can't find any reference as to which way this should be interpreted. In the absence of this clarification, I think your argument is certainly valid.

And yes, I will submit the Delay Repay forthwith and let you know how I get on. I may be a bit devilish and fail to mention the permitted Southern-Southern 3 minute connection at Redhill, see what response that draws!
Good luck. :D
 

34D

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And yes, I will submit the Delay Repay forthwith and let you know how I get on. I may be a bit devilish and fail to mention the permitted Southern-Southern 3 minute connection at Redhill, see what response that draws!
Please do Sir. It would give many members on here great pleasure to see a scan of a letter from Southern refusing your claim, which is obviously factually incorrect, and could then go to passenger focus.

Just list the two southern services you travelled on and provide a copy of your itinerary and tickets.
 

paul1609

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An insider at Southern reckons that this is a known issue at Redhill.
Apparently the 3 mins SN-SN connection was a fix to make journey planners work on journeys to from Reigate when this was operated as a Redhill to Reigate shuttle service.
At that time it didn't affect connections to the Tonbridge line as this was operated by SouthEastern.
The current situation is the unforeseen consequences of the change of franchise and a subsequent timetable shift. Apparently there is a request in for a change to a minimum connection time of 7 mins.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EDIT: By the way the via Barnham fares are a steal for bashing the south coast. £26 for an Anytime Day Return (£24 CDR) which can be bought from Weymouth in the west to Broadstairs in the east. And with all the strange routeings that booking engines throw up that's quite some mileage.
The 7 Day seasons are also good value. £80 for Salisbury to Broadstairs via Barnham with no peak restrictions makes a useful Rover Ticket!



 

bignosemac

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Delay Repay submitted online with scanned tickets. No option to explain journey, just origin and destination stations, date of travel and time the delayed journey started.

Let's see if they can work out my itinerary and spot the delay from that....
 

30909

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3 minutes is still not very long to get from P1/2 to P3 at Redhill!
Tried this on a number of occassions, unless you are seriously "off peak" the bottleneck are the entrance to the stairs down to the subway and the distance to cross four tracks on both platforms, with travellers (customers) with cases, buggies, less mobile etc slowing things down. I have not timed a "clear run" but bet it would close to 60 seconds if you happen to leave your train close to the stairs. Only excuse for the timing could be "cross platform" 1-2
 

JonathanH

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Go to Redhill any weekday morning at 0830 and you can see people (some of them my office colleagues) who believe that connections of less than 3 minutes in the peak between platform 3 and platform 1 are realistic - the key is knowing where to sit (carriage 2) and being first to the stairs. There is then a mass charge between the platforms.

Realistically, 30 seconds is enough if seated in the right place and the Reigate train goes from the near end of platform 1 but there is always the risk of missing it. All day there is an xx30 arrival and xx34 train to Reading
 

Brucey

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And yes, I will submit the Delay Repay forthwith and let you know how I get on. I may be a bit devilish and fail to mention the permitted Southern-Southern 3 minute connection at Redhill, see what response that draws!
In my experience, they have trouble managing anything more complex than A to B.

We (my family and friends) have all had these situations:
  • When you have a change of trains to a different TOC, they tell you to contact the other TOC
  • They will assume you made an unofficial connection and pay a lower level of delay replay
  • The delay repay was often rounded down 5p, even at 100% level (although I've been told this is now fixed)
  • Excess fares cause many problems. Excess sent with a SDR, claiming in both directions, but only excessed in one direction. Caused a nightmare trying to get them to properly include the X/S into the Delay Repay calculation.
 

bignosemac

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Well.... here's a thing. Dropped into my inbox yesterday was an email from redspottedhanky.com. I very nearly missed it while doing some email housework.

Extracted quote:

"As this service clearly gave you 3 minutes and was not enough time to allow you to your connecting train we would like to offer you a £10 e-voucher and credit this to your Red Spotted Hanky account."

So £10 from the retailer and (eventually) £8.60 from the TOC that caused the delay.

I'll be in profit!!!

Happy Easter. :lol:
 

bignosemac

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20 days since I submitted my Delay Repay claim to Southern, no respose yet excepting the initial confirmation of receipt email. That said:

"Dear Mr ******

Thank you for submitting a Delay Repay claim. Our Customer Relations
team will respond to your claim within 20 days. Please note that all
claims are validated against our train running information records."


(my emphasis in bold)

So that's 'will respond', not 'aim to respond' and '20 days' not '20 working days'.

Follow up call to Customer Relations tells me it is 'aim' and 'working days'.

Shoddy. :-x:roll:
 

Brucey

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The last claim I put in took 25 days (inc. weekends). I'm sure the paper form always used to mention 20 working days.
 

bignosemac

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I knew something would happen and this Delay Repay claim wouldn't be straightforward. You'll like this....

Just received a letter (attached) today from Southern. They've said that the delay to my journey was down to South West Trains and Southeastern. :roll:

First off, I never caught a SWT service that day, and second, I'd already been delayed by Southern for an hour by the time I boarded a Southeastern service.

Southern have passed my claim on to SWT and Southeastern and I've just discovered, after calling Southern Customer Services, that they've closed my original claim. I've just had to submit a new claim. This time I've provided the full itinerary, which, if you remember, I couldn't do with the online claim.

Unsurprisingly, the Customer Services Advisor said I was making an unofficial connection at Redhill so the delay was not down to Southern. I had to patiently explain the Southern to Southern 3 minute allowable connection at Redhill. Still, I was told that the connection is not official. So I then got the CS Advisor to replicate my journey using Southern's booking engine. Finally he agreed that the connection was permitted and has re-submitted my claim to the Delay Repay team.

Jeez.:-x
 

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IanD

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I've had the problem of not being able to provide the full itinerary on the online forms so for the last claim (with East Coast) I submitted I added it to the scanned image of my tickets (see attached) and had no problems at all - got the whole £15.95 refunded in record time.
 

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