Network card after midnight on Sunday

[joncombe]

I recently needed to travel on a train after midnight on a Sunday (I think the departure was around 00:45), from London Waterloo.

I tried to use the ticket machine but when I selected Network Card the machine, came up that as it was Monday the minimum fare for the Network Card applied (which was more than the adult single without a railcard).

My understanding is that the Network Card was valid until the "end of service" on Sunday, which I think has a cut off of around 4am on Monday morning. Is this the case or am I wrong? On Sundays the minimum fare does not apply.

If so, it seems wrong the SWR machines (I tried two) seem to have been programmed with a midnight cut off (the clock on the machine was showing 00:02 when I tried to buy the ticket).

To my surprise the ticket office was still open at this time and the member of staff there was happy to sell me a ticket with the Network Card discount (and without the minimum fare being applied). So in this case I was able to buy the ticket I wanted, but I imagine if I was starting off from another station (such as Vauxhall perhaps) where the ticket office was closed, I'd have to buy a non-discounted ticket and claim the difference back (if I could be bothered), assuming it is permitted to buy discounted tickets at this time.

If it's correct I'll try raising it with SWR.

 

[A Challenge]

You can use tickets dated for the Sunday until close of service, including those discounted like that I think, but if the ticket was dated for Monday it would be correct to have the minimum fare.

 

[Hadders]

A Network Railcard discounted ticket dated for the Sunday would be valid from 00:01 until 04:29 on the Monday morning.
A Network Railcard discounted ticket dated for the Monday would be valid from 10:00 until 04:29 on the Tuesday morning (timing restrictions also apply to the ticket. The restriction doesn't apply on Bank Holidays, £13 minimum fare applied on weekdays etc.)

It therefore follows that to use a discounted ticket at 00:45 on a Monday morning the ticket would need to be dated for the Sunday.

Technically if the clerk sold you a Network Railcard ticket dated for the Monday it wasn't valid.

 

[yorkie]

I recently needed to travel on a train after midnight on a Sunday (I think the departure was around 00:45), from London Waterloo.

Next time, buy the ticket before midnight as a ticket dated for the previous day will be cheaper.

I tried to use the ticket machine but when I selected Network Card the machine, came up that as it was Monday the minimum fare for the Network Card applied (which was more than the adult single without a railcard).

The rules are ridiculous but they are the rules, so the machine was correct.

My understanding is that the Network Card was valid until the "end of service" on Sunday, which I think has a cut off of around 4am on Monday morning. Is this the case or am I wrong? On Sundays the minimum fare does not apply.

The cut off for tickets dated on Sunday is 0429 on Monday morning but the ticket needs to be purchased by 2359 on Sunday. You can book online if you won't get to the station until after midnight.

If so, it seems wrong the SWR machines (I tried two) seem to have been programmed with a midnight cut off (the clock on the machine was showing 00:02 when I tried to buy the ticket).

Yes, the programming is correct as the rules are ridiculous.

To my surprise the ticket office was still open at this time and the member of staff there was happy to sell me a ticket with the Network Card discount (and without the minimum fare being applied). So in this case I was able to buy the ticket I wanted, but I imagine if I was starting off from another station (such as Vauxhall perhaps) where the ticket office was closed, I'd have to buy a non-discounted ticket and claim the difference back (if I could be bothered), assuming it is permitted to buy discounted tickets at this time.

If it's correct I'll try raising it with SWR.

SWR might give the booking clerk a telling off for applying common sense. I hope not, but it depends on whether the person receiving the message applies rules rigidly or applies common sense themselves, so it's probably best to keep quiet.

 

[joncombe]

Technically if the clerk sold you a Network Railcard ticket dated for the Monday it wasn't valid.

Thanks both. I've checked and the clerk in fact sold me a ticket dated for Sunday with the Network Railcard discount (and no minimum fare), so from what you have told me the ticket was valid. (I didn't check it at the time).

I did try to use the "Buy a ticket for another date" function from the machines and select the date of the Sunday but it is not possible to select a date in the past.

This seems to be a case where the cost of the ticket depends on when you bought it, rather than the time of train travelled on then. I guess in future I should buy a ticket in advance (it was a single ticket I can appreciate for a return things are not so simple), so as to get the discount.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks both. I've checked and the clerk in fact sold me a ticket dated for Sunday with the Network Railcard discount (and no minimum fare), so from what you have told me the ticket was valid. (I didn't check it at the time).

I did try to use the "Buy a ticket for another date" function from the machines and select the date of the Sunday but it is not possible to select a date in the past.

This seems to be a case where the cost of the ticket depends on when you bought it, rather than the time of train travelled on then. I guess in future I should buy a ticket in advance (it was a single ticket I can appreciate for a return things are not so simple), so as to get the discount.

Good work by the clerk!

 

[yorkie]

Thanks both. I've checked and the clerk in fact sold me a ticket dated for Sunday with the Network Railcard discount (and no minimum fare), so from what you have told me the ticket was valid. (I didn't check it at the time).

Yes in that case it was valid. What I do not know is if they are supposed to be able to issue tickets for a date in the past. I'd like to say they should be allowed to do this but as this is the rail industry I am not confident.

I did try to use the "Buy a ticket for another date" function from the machines and select the date of the Sunday but it is not possible to select a date in the past.

Indeed that isn't possible.

This seems to be a case where the cost of the ticket depends on when you bought it, rather than the time of train travelled on then. I guess in future I should buy a ticket in advance (it was a single ticket I can appreciate for a return things are not so simple), so as to get the discount.

Yes for travel between 0001 and 0429 the price can be cheaper if the ticket is dated for the previous day, under certain circumstances.

 

[joncombe]

Next time, buy the ticket before midnight as a ticket dated for the previous day will be cheaper.

Yes the irritating things was that I had already bought a return ticket via the RailAir coach from Heathrow to Woking. However my flight back on the Sunday was late and as a result, I missed the last coach from Heathrow to Woking. So I had to buy a new ticket, travelling via London in order to get home. So the return portion of that ticket was wasted because I could not use it and I ended up buying a new one (this one). Perhaps if I'd have thought of it, I might have been able to excess it from London, but I was just wanting to get home. I would have bought a ticket before midnight if I had realised this existed. I had assumed (wrongly, as it now seems) that it would not matter.

SWR might give the booking clerk a telling off for applying common sense. I hope not, but it depends on whether the person receiving the message applies rules rigidly or applies common sense themselves, so it's probably best to keep quiet.

Yes I think I was writing a reply as you were also replying. This is why I wanted to check first. It sounds like the clerk did me a favour selling me a ticket dated from Sunday even though it was by then Monday. I would not want them to get a telling off because of it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair this discrepancy can work both ways. I have done a return journey with a sleep in the middle by purchasing an Off Peak Day Return[1] at 0001 before, saving a few quid over the Off Peak Return available earlier for the same trip.

[1] The restrictions on said ticket I think barred travel 0430-0900 - of course if it was just "not before 0900" it would have cost more!

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm pretty sure that after midnight, London Underground TVMs still sell tickets dated for the previous 'traffic day' (I'm guessing up until 0430).

So actually, a National Rail TVM can win over an LU TVM if it's the weekend and you want to buy an off-peak Day Travelcard after midnight because it will be dated 'correctly' (e.g. you can use it to get home on a night bus or night Tube and then use it the 'next day' after your slumbers).

 

[JonathanH]

I'm pretty sure that after midnight, London Underground TVMs still sell tickets dated for the previous 'traffic day' (I'm guessing up until 0430).

So actually, a National Rail TVM can win over an LU TVM if it's the weekend and you want to buy an off-peak Day Travelcard after midnight because it will be dated 'correctly' (e.g. you can use it to get home on a night bus or night Tube and then use it the 'next day' after your slumbers).

Don't try using that NR travelcard on LU - the gates won't like it (and the staff may tell you it isn't valid).

 

[gray1404]

I was getting a train on Merseyrail once that left at 00:04 and I knew I'd be returning some point later that day (after a sleep). I got to the booking office at 00:01 and the ticket office refused to sell me a return as there were no more trains coming back and I'd need to singles for what I wanted to do. The end result way I got on the train anyway and when I got to my destination the booking office there (which should have been open 15 minutes until departure of the last service) was closed.

If you had this situation again and needed to buy a ticket before midnight, if you were to buy it online you would not need to get to an actual station before midnight to buy it. If you buy a walk up (ticket you can just get straight away before travel) ticket on any of the GTR branded sites (Southern etc) sites, select ticket on departure from the TVM and don't end up collecting the ticket then you receive a fee free refund back onto your card which you can do in your online account without any paperwork needing to be returned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was getting a train on Merseyrail once that left at 00:04 and I knew I'd be returning some point later that day (after a sleep). I got to the booking office at 00:01 and the ticket office refused to sell me a return as there were no more trains coming back and I'd need to singles for what I wanted to do. The end result way I got on the train anyway and when I got to my destination the booking office there (which should have been open 15 minutes until departure of the last service) was closed.

So yet another Merseyrail ticket office conclusively proving why they should be closed and replaced with TVMs because they are fundamentally too stubborn or incompetent to get something very, very basic right.

I give up sometimes.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So yet another Merseyrail ticket office conclusively proving why they should be closed and replaced with TVMs because they are fundamentally too stubborn or incompetent to get something very, very basic right.

I give up sometimes.

Is this really 'very, very basic'? It seems to me that wanting to travel out shortly after midnight and return after service has ceased for the night but on the same calendar day is actually a pretty unusual thing to want to do. Given that M'rail services end around midnight and don't start up again until an hour or so after 0430, it strikes me as entirely reasonable for staff to assume that a ticketing day runs from first service to last, rather than from 0001 on day n to 0429 on day n+1.

There may be loads of good reasons for wanting to get rid of M'rail ticket offices, but this isn't one of them.

 

[Coolzac]

I remember late one evening I was travelling with someone and wanted to buy a Northern Duo single from Saltburn to Darlington. The Guard said a duo had to be a return journey. I said, Ok, as it's cheaper can I get a return? The Guard then said this was the last service so I technically couldn't complete the return, and refused to sell it to me!

Jobsworth at his finest!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have heard of this before, but I don't believe there is any requirement for a journey to be possible to sell a ticket for it!

 

[etr221]

Is this really 'very, very basic'? It seems to me that wanting to travel out shortly after midnight and return after service has ceased for the night but on the same calendar day is actually a pretty unusual thing to want to do. Given that M'rail services end around midnight and don't start up again until an hour or so after 0430, it strikes me as entirely reasonable for staff to assume that a ticketing day runs from first service to last, rather than from 0001 on day n to 0429 on day n+1.

I would say knowing what a ticketing day is is a very, very basic... and assuming something else is a no-no. (See thread on Northern's twitter feed and ticket transferability...)
(How many threads on this forum boil down to mis-assumptions?)
0001 is an early point in today, not a late point in yesterday... I think (IIRC) it was the Madrid Tramways you made their traffic day clear by not resetting time until it was over - timings between midnight and end of service (at half past two in the morning) were shown and recorded as being between 2400 and 2630, date unchanged from the preceding few hours.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How many threads on this forum boil down to mis-assumptions?

Taking this one as an example, it's tempting to ask how many threads on this forum boil down to people trying to play the letter of the rules against usual practice?

To defend Merseyrail station staff (and noting in passing that there are very few parts of the railway where you would find a ticket office staffed at midnight), one has to ask how often they would come across someone wanting to buy a ticket to head out after midnight and return some time after 0430 the same calendar day. I suspect the answer is somewhere between once in their career, and never. If I am right in that, then I don't think it's reasonable to grumble that on meeting an edge case for the first time ever, their response didn't match the one hoped for by the customer. Yes, the rule is that a ticketing day is 0001(n) to 0429(n+1). But the approximation of first train to last train works on Merseyrail for all but an infinitesimally small number of cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the only point in a ticket office is professional service and knowledge. Therefore staff do need to know these things - or at the very least to know when they should look things up instead of assuming, particularly where a passenger queries something.

If they can't or won't do that, there is fundamentally no point in them as the overall effect is negative.

 

[yorkie]

Is this really 'very, very basic'?

Yes.

it strikes me as entirely reasonable for staff to assume that a ticketing day runs from first service to last, rather than from 0001 on day n to 0429 on day n+1.

No. It's quite simple: ticket office staff should know you can buy tickets for today's date.