New 4-tier system for England

[DustyBin]

So have pubs under the previous 'table service only' rules.

They have indeed, as you say revised and reduced due to social distancing rules (each individual venue had to carry out a risk assessment before reopening). Note as well that even without social distancing pubs are subject to strict capacity limits. It doesn't make sense, I'm absolutely fed up with hospitality being scapegoated in this way. The entire industry is being made unviable, the losses are eye watering. It's going to be an absolutely miserable Christmas for a lot of hospitality workers.

 

[DelW]

They have indeed, as you say revised and reduced due to social distancing rules (each individual venue had to carry out a risk assessment before reopening). Note as well that even without social distancing pubs are subject to strict capacity limits. It doesn't make sense, I'm absolutely fed up with hospitality being scapegoated in this way. The entire industry is being made unviable, the losses are eye watering. It's going to be an absolutely miserable Christmas for a lot of hospitality workers.

One of the features that seems bizarre to me is that despite the 10-19 age group being the one whose infection rate is rising fastest, the government is insisting that all schools stay open until the last possible day, even where they don't want to, but is shutting down hospitality. My school days were long ago, but I doubt much useful academic work will be done in the last few days of term.

Surely applying a temporary minimum age of 21 for pubs and bars would be a more rational response. Though I think most teenage socialising is done outside pubs anyway, judging by the groups of teenagers I see hanging around together on my estate (and the piles of empty Fosters and Stella cans chucked into the undergrowth around our footpaths).

 

[kristiang85]

They have indeed, as you say revised and reduced due to social distancing rules (each individual venue had to carry out a risk assessment before reopening). Note as well that even without social distancing pubs are subject to strict capacity limits. It doesn't make sense, I'm absolutely fed up with hospitality being scapegoated in this way. The entire industry is being made unviable, the losses are eye watering. It's going to be an absolutely miserable Christmas for a lot of hospitality workers.

Not to mention those who own pubs and live in them; basically their home is at risk as well.

 

[bramling]

As to which Sadiq is agitating for masks to be made mandatory outdoors in “crowded areas”.

Under the mayoral devolved powers, would Khan have any power to impose that within London?

 

[Mojo]

Under the mayoral devolved powers, would Khan have any power to impose that within London?

He might as well do - everything to do with Covid thus far he's asked for he has got.

 

[adc82140]

He might as well do - everything to do with Covid thus far he's asked for he has got.

Although he's been agitating for further restrictions in London for weeks, and when he's bluff was called and tier 3 imposed, he started whinging.

 

[Mag_seven]

Although he's been agitating for further restrictions in London for weeks, and when he's bluff was called and tier 3 imposed, he started whinging.

Kahn seems to spend more time agitating for things that are not under his control rather than spending time managing things that are under his control (which isn't much to be fair).

 

[kristiang85]

(which isn't much to be fair).

Thank heavens.

I think its about time the position was binned again.

 

[joncombe]

I am seeing all the hallmarks of another Government U-turn. The British Medical Journal saying the relaxation of rules at Christmas is a mistake and that hospitals are likely to be at the April peak by the 1st of January. Sadiq Khan agitating for the rules to change (and, of courrse, more masks, as he always does), Labour calling for it to be reviewed and a senior Government minister being wheeled out to say it's important to be able to see loved ones. Pretty much every U-turn has come about with the same sequence of events.

I think we can now expected Sturgeon or Drakeford to make a U-turn and the Government will follow suit, unfortunately.

 

[adc82140]

I think this'll be one to many for the British public. Had they said in the first place that Xmas was off, they may have got away with it. But plans have been made. Tickets booked. I won't be changing my plans (although 95% of them involved my social bubble anyway). I think they were right for once when they said that the public will just ignore the rules anyway. Even the arch eeyore Vaughan Gething in Wales has said that changing the Xmas rules at this point will destroy public confidence in the government.

 

[kristiang85]

I think this'll be one to many for the British public. Had they said in the first place that Xmas was off, they may have got away with it. But plans have been made. Tickets booked. I won't be changing my plans (although 95% of them involved my social bubble anyway). I think they were right for once when they said that the public will just ignore the rules anyway. Even the arch eeyore Vaughan Gething in Wales has said that changing the Xmas rules at this point will destroy public confidence in the government.

Yep, I know my inlaws already have all the food in for 6 of us, but luckily I don't have to travel far. I've got friends who have tickets, are looking forward to seeing their families for the first time since last winter, and have been isolating now in preparation to reduce risk (although clearly many politicians think normal citizens are incapable of personal risk management).

Even if the rules change, it will be widely ignored I suspect, but the bad taste will linger.

 

[Bantamzen]

I am seeing all the hallmarks of another Government U-turn. The British Medical Journal saying the relaxation of rules at Christmas is a mistake and that hospitals are likely to be at the April peak by the 1st of January. Sadiq Khan agitating for the rules to change (and, of courrse, more masks, as he always does), Labour calling for it to be reviewed and a senior Government minister being wheeled out to say it's important to be able to see loved ones. Pretty much every U-turn has come about with the same sequence of events.

I think we can now expected Sturgeon or Drakeford to make a U-turn and the Government will follow suit, unfortunately.

Interestingly the editor of the BMJ, Fiona Godlee seems to be talking up hospitalisations and deaths just as elsewhere numbers are seemingly starting to fall.

High death rate 'may be starting to fall'

Total deaths in the UK have been 20% above normal in recent weeks, but that figure has now dropped.

www.bbc.co.uk

The higher numbers of deaths seen in the UK recent weeks may be starting to fall, figures suggest.
In the week ending 4 December there were 13,956 deaths - 15% above the five-year average.
But that is down on the previous week when deaths were 20% higher.

And all of this with a background of thousands (perhaps tens) of people having received the vaccine and be on their way to greater protection. These experts might want to consider the effect of constantly publicly pushing back whenever progress seems to be made.

Edit: And right on cue, Drakeford is now talking about "grim choices":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55313964

Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford says the four nations' approach to Christmas is a "hard-won agreement" and he will "not lightly put it aside", amid mounting pressure on the UK government to review its plan to ease Covid rules.

Drakeford told the Welsh Parliament that "no doubt this issue will be discussed" when he talks to Michael Gove and the other devolved nations later.

"The choice is a grim one, isn't it," he said. "I have read in my own email account over the last couple of days heart-rending pleas from people not to reverse what we have agreed for Christmas.

"People who live entirely alone, who have made arrangements to be with people for the first time - they say to me that this is the only thing that they have been able to look forward to in recent weeks.

"And yet we know, if people do not use the modest amount of additional freedom available responsibly, then we will see an impact of that on our already hard-pressed health service.

"So I think the choice is an incredibly difficult one. At the moment we have a four-nation agreement. I will discuss that later today, we will look at the figures again together."

 

[philosopher]

I think this'll be one to many for the British public. Had they said in the first place that Xmas was off, they may have got away with it. But plans have been made. Tickets booked. I won't be changing my plans (although 95% of them involved my social bubble anyway). I think they were right for once when they said that the public will just ignore the rules anyway. Even the arch eeyore Vaughan Gething in Wales has said that changing the Xmas rules at this point will destroy public confidence in the government.

To me it is an issue of trust. Regardless of whether it was the right thing to do, the government promised an easing of the restrictions over Christmas and so should stick to its word. Doing a U turn on this I actually think may result in more deaths in the long run as people will decide if the government is not going to stick their word, why should I follow their rules. Therefore compliance with things like the rule of 6 and test and trace I reckon will fall dramatically.

 

[joncombe]

Apparently there is a call between Michael Gove and the devolved leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland this afternoon. The meeting was called at the request of Sturgeon. So it's very clear exactly what is going to happen now.

 

[Mag_seven]

Apparently there is a call between Michael Gove and the devolved leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland this afternoon. The meeting was called at the request of Sturgeon. So it's very clear exactly what is going to happen now.

I'll place my bets on either a Downing St Press Conference or a "Boris Address The Nation" speech tomorrow. Its clear those in power are being bullied by medical establishment scare tactics who appear to be being egged on by the BBC and Sky. (as I type this Sky are parroting some scary numbers calculated by "Health Care Professionals")

 

[DB]

I'll place my bets on either a Downing St Press Conference or a "Boris Address The Nation" speech tomorrow. Its clear those in power are being bullied by medical establishment scare tactics who appear to be being egged on by the BBC and Sky.

Does seem likely.

Do these clueless bumblers who claim to be leaders actually realise what it will do to public confidence in the government(s) if they do this? It's already on a steady decline but if they U-turn over this it will plummet.

 

[Kite159]

The logic presumably being that shops will have clearly defined capacity limits? Of course this has no bearing on what goes on outside (see pictures from recent weeks of Harrods and Regent St) but they have always said transmission is less outdoor.

The shop might have queues to head inside but once inside it's can be a free for al.

 

[marty1977]

Sky news are actually reporting the most likely outcome of this afternoon's discussion is that the current easement will remain but tougher messaging about safe behaviour or the window will be reduced to Xmas Eve, Xmas Day & Boxing Day. Let's not all jump to doom and gloom conclusions just yet.

 

[DB]

Sky news are actually reporting the most likely outcome of this afternoon's discussion is that the current easement will remain but tougher messaging about safe behaviour or the window will be reduced to Xmas Eve, Xmas Day & Boxing Day. Let's not all jump to doom and gloom conclusions just yet.

If they tried that one it would be ignored - anyone using public transport wouldn't be able to travel back from wherver they are before the 27th as hardly any trains or buses will be running.

 

[adc82140]

Sky news are actually reporting the most likely outcome of this afternoon's discussion is that the current easement will remain but tougher messaging about safe behaviour or the window will be reduced to Xmas Eve, Xmas Day & Boxing Day. Let's not all jump to doom and gloom conclusions just yet.

I've told my six year old we're seeing his grandparents on 23rd for the first time in quite a while. Would Matt Hancock like to come round and see his face when I tell him that it won't happen?

(in reality we're going anyway. We've all had Covid, and if the neighbours say anything I'll just point the police in the direction of their suspicious plants they are growing)

 

[duncanp]

Sky news are actually reporting the most likely outcome of this afternoon's discussion is that the current easement will remain but tougher messaging about safe behaviour or the window will be reduced to Xmas Eve, Xmas Day & Boxing Day. Let's not all jump to doom and gloom conclusions just yet.

Brilliant.

So people have already booked train tickets and made other travel arrangements.

There are no trains on Christmas Day, and very few on Boxing Day, so how are people meant to get to and from their families in the first place?

Who wants to bet that the new strain of COVID-19 is used as an excuse for another full "firebreak" lockdown in January, "..just to get this terrible virus under control"?

And I see that Sturgeon's COVID-19 dart has landed on East Lothian, Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire today, who are all being moved up a tier.

 

[Richard Scott]

Edit: And right on cue, Drakeford is now talking about "grim choices":

Well my grim choice will be to ignore Drakeford. He is a total buffoon and have no confidence in him to make a sensible judgement (just like the rest of our politicians). To be honest think many people are now feeling the same way. We've had enough of this.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I can already see Bumbling Boris addressing the nation banging his fist on the desk (again) and saying yet again 'we will beat this together'. I do think there is a bit of Deja vu now everytime time he makes an announcement.

On the subject of Matt Hancock - he looked ten years beyond his age when he was in the Commons yesterday. I have a feeling he won't see out 2021 as the Health Secretary.

CJ

 

[duncanp]

I can already see Bumbling Boris addressing the nation banging his fist on the desk (again) and saying yet again 'we will beat this together'. I do think there is a bit of Deja vu now everytime time he makes an announcement.

On the subject of Matt Hancock - he looked ten years beyond his age when he was in the Commons yesterday. I have a feeling he won't see out 2021 as the Health Secretary.

CJ

I wouldn't mind betting hope that Boris Johnson won't be Prime Minister by this time next year as well.

At least you can't blame the hospitality sector for the increase in cases in Tier 3 areas as it is all but closed.

Mind you, just because you can't blame the hospitality sector for the increase in cases doesn't mean that they won't be made a scapegoat.

 

[Jamiescott1]

After yesterday's announcement of London and parts of Essex and Herts moving to tier 3 tonight, do people think any other areas will move to tier 3 during this weeks 2 week review.
The local news paper in bucks keeps banging on about bucks going into tier 3

 

[marty1977]

According to Sky News they reckon 57% of Britons are in favour of cancelling the Christmas easement of restrictions. I'd love to know where they get this BS from!!

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't mind betting hope that Boris Johnson won't be Prime Minister by this time next year as well.

At least you can't blame the hospitality sector for the increase in cases in Tier 3 areas as it is all but closed.

Mind you, just because you can't blame the hospitality sector for the increase in cases doesn't mean that they won't be made a scapegoat.

I’d be surprised if BJ survives 2021, in fact I think even late spring will be stretching it. Hancock is similarly finished. The wild card is Sunak, who interestingly seems to be keeping a low profile at the moment.

According to Sky News they reckon 57% of Britons are in favour of cancelling the Christmas easement of restrictions. I'd love to know where they get this BS from!!

To be honest if there was a poll which asked if we should just forget Christmas completely this year, I’d be extremely tempted to vote yes. I’m utterly sick of hearing about it.

But then I despise Christmas as the best of times!

 

[DB]

I’d be surprised if BJ survives 2021, in fact I think even late spring will be stretching it. Hancock is similarly finished. The wild card is Sunak, who interestingly seems to be keeping a low profile at the moment.

I think Sunak has probably put himself out of the running by spaffing half a billion quid on subsidised troughing - it's increasingly looking like this was a waste of money, and the fact that cases increased soon afterwards and the hospitality industry was given another kicking makes the justification of supporting that industry look increasingly untenable.

Suspect the next PM will be someone who hasn't been involved with and tainted by this whole situation. Javid would be a likely contender.

 

[packermac]

I’d be surprised if BJ survives 2021, in fact I think even late spring will be stretching it. Hancock is similarly finished. The wild card is Sunak, who interestingly seems to be keeping a low profile at the moment.



To be honest if there was a poll which asked if we should just forget Christmas completely this year, I’d be extremely tempted to vote yes. I’m utterly sick of hearing about it.

But then I despise Christmas as the best of times!

So who are all these Tory MP's who are going to put together the motion that causes a leadership election then? The brexiteers iF we sell out to the EU? Anyone would be stupid to want to be PM with the pandemic on going, and yes I do believe that at the end of 2021 Europe will still be suffering from it.

 

[bramling]

So who are all these Tory MP's who are going to put together the motion that causes a leadership election then? The brexiteers iF we sell out to the EU? Anyone would be stupid to want to be PM with the pandemic on going, and yes I do believe that at the end of 2021 Europe will still be suffering from it.

Allegedly BJ himself wants to walk away, and I suspect there’s more than a little truth to that.

At some point minds will also start to look towards the 2024 election. That may seem a long time away, however if BJ looks a liability, as is certain to be the case, then a trickle will very quickly turn into a torrent.

The only glimmer of potential saviour for the current lot might be if the vaccine programme somehow goes well, which given how every other element of this has been a shambles doesn’t bode well, but even if it does there are going to be economic issues going forward and that will be part 2 of this whole saga.