New 4-tier system for England

[packermac]

The Scottish travel ban is completely unenforceable, otherwise that railtour with 90s last Saturday would have been breaking the law when it travelled into Glasgow (all be for 20 minutes before returning to Carlisle).

I wondered about that tour but were passengers actually allowed off the train in the time at Glasgow? It could certainly not be classes as essential travel.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Cambridge trains definitely well-loaded throughout pre-Covid. But not at present.

That's the sort of commute people love to hate... to love once in an odd while but definitely not every day week in week out.

 

[jtuk]

That's the sort of commute people love to hate... to love once in an odd while but definitely not every day week in week out.

Hmm, you may have a point on price but I'd have much preferred to commute Cambridge > London as opposed to south Manchester > Salford

 

[C J Snarzell]

Interesting that on yesterday's ITV news, Robert Peston made a suggestion that the four day Christmas window 'might' be removed by the government because of rising cases in the South.

I and a few other people I know are choosing not to use the Christmas window for our own safety & the safety others but I suspect there will be 'Merry' Hell if Boris does a U-turn on this.

CJ

 

[Pete_uk]

People will mingle at Christmas unless there are soldiers on ever street corner with a shoot on sight order. The knock on effect will be, imho, a spike of cases in mid January.

You could say that it will selfish but so much is made of this time of the year I really can't blame people wanting to see their loved ones. You really never know what will happen between now and next Christmas.

The question is of course what the government response will be. More of the same I guess.

 

[island]

The Scottish travel ban is completely unenforceable, otherwise that railtour with 90s last Saturday would have been breaking the law when it travelled into Glasgow (all be for 20 minutes before returning to Carlisle).

It is not an offence to enter Scotland on a journey between two points outwith Scotland.

 

[Smidster]

I have to say I am increasingly of the opinion that the Christmas Bubble should be abandoned.

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

Secondly, as this goes for the tier system more generally, is that is will cause people to act more recklessly than if we had a simpler, more sustainable, set of rules. Tell people that they have "5 days off for good behaviour" before being locked inside again for who knows how many months to come and people will take it (and then those in charge will act shocked when they do) For examples of that just look at what happened before Lockdown 2 and in the run-up to entering tier 3 - People see a final chance to do stuff and take it.

It is a terrible decision to have to make...but if the alternative is lockdown 3 in January I know what decision I would take.

 

[island]

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

You cannot visit a restaurant with your Christmas bubble (unless you could do so anyway because of another rule).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think we know the answer to that!

It's well established now that if cases go down following a restriction being introduced, this is automatically due to the restriction (no consideration given to whether it actually is causation).

If cases go up or stay the same following a restriction, it's because people aren't following the rules / the rules aren't strict enough, and without the rules it would have been worse.

Kent been in Tier 3 for weeks and lockdown before that hasn't arrested the upward trend in cases one iota - cant blame hospitality anymore

 

[DustyBin]

I have to say I am increasingly of the opinion that the Christmas Bubble should be abandoned.

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

Secondly, as this goes for the tier system more generally, is that is will cause people to act more recklessly than if we had a simpler, more sustainable, set of rules. Tell people that they have "5 days off for good behaviour" before being locked inside again for who knows how many months to come and people will take it (and then those in charge will act shocked when they do) For examples of that just look at what happened before Lockdown 2 and in the run-up to entering tier 3 - People see a final chance to do stuff and take it.

It is a terrible decision to have to make...but if the alternative is lockdown 3 in January I know what decision I would take.

I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve said there in so far as it doesn’t make sense to relax the rules in the midst of a deadly pandemic, however I’m certain we’re heading for another lockdown anyway for the simple reason it’s respiratory infection season. The infection rate will increase regardless of whether people meet up over Christmas. People will simply ignore the restrictions anyway, especially at this late stage.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Then please explain why London has gone Tier 1 -> Lockdown -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3. Doesn't look much like working to me.



Because it isn't an acceptable excuse. It was barely acceptable in March. But now they've had 9 months now to put sufficient resilience into the NHS - which would have been a much better use of the hundreds of billions they've frittered away over the year.

Hospital bed availability in London is way better than any other NHS region also ICU bed occupation is running at 22% of April peak currently. These were measures that they said they would use but have disregarded in favour of number of cases only. Furthermore in all probability these are false positives from Lighthouse labs where positivity rates are 50% higher than NHS labs whence the opposite should be happening. PCR testing on an industrial scale staffed by low paid workers is a recipe for sample contamination and thus false positives. Lateral flow test reliability is also questionable but its cheaper and quicker so they'd be better using those if just chasing up the number of people being tested is all there interested in.

Again they are hoist by there own petard by making commitments over education and christmas get togethers which they don't want to back down from. This is the real lesson that isn't being learnt is don't keep make political commitments this is dynamic situation and the public need to understand that and accept things will change around at shot notice.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say I am increasingly of the opinion that the Christmas Bubble should be abandoned.

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

Secondly, as this goes for the tier system more generally, is that is will cause people to act more recklessly than if we had a simpler, more sustainable, set of rules. Tell people that they have "5 days off for good behaviour" before being locked inside again for who knows how many months to come and people will take it (and then those in charge will act shocked when they do) For examples of that just look at what happened before Lockdown 2 and in the run-up to entering tier 3 - People see a final chance to do stuff and take it.

It is a terrible decision to have to make...but if the alternative is lockdown 3 in January I know what decision I would take.

I agree with your point that a system of consistent sustainable rules would have been preferable, but unfortunately that ship sailed when we went for the hokey-kokey lockdown dance instead.

People need to consider the risks to their relatives and act accordingly, however I don't believe that should automatically mean more lockdown.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You are surprised the Government has changed policy again? You shouldn't be by now. Same as they are now reviewing the tiers weekly, not bi-weekly as previously communicated.

The govt in conjunction with directors of public health should be reviewing the tiers daily and using consistent 7 day (or maybe longer) down or uptrends on there 5 key measures to dynamically manage the situation. Reviewing every two weeks was a nonsense anyhow its not as if the virus observes any rules so at least they've seen fit to recognise that.

 

[packermac]

It is not an offence to enter Scotland on a journey between two points outwith Scotland.

In answering my own question I have learnt elsewhere passengers were not allowed off at Glasgow during the brief stay.

 

[bramling]

I have to say I am increasingly of the opinion that the Christmas Bubble should be abandoned.

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

Secondly, as this goes for the tier system more generally, is that is will cause people to act more recklessly than if we had a simpler, more sustainable, set of rules. Tell people that they have "5 days off for good behaviour" before being locked inside again for who knows how many months to come and people will take it (and then those in charge will act shocked when they do) For examples of that just look at what happened before Lockdown 2 and in the run-up to entering tier 3 - People see a final chance to do stuff and take it.

It is a terrible decision to have to make...but if the alternative is lockdown 3 in January I know what decision I would take.

I tend to agree that *if* the consequence is going to be that the government decides to do another lockdown January, then all this fuss over Christmas is daft.

I agree with your point that a system of consistent sustainable rules would have been preferable, but unfortunately that ship sailed when we went for the hokey-kokey lockdown dance instead.

People need to consider the risks to their relatives and act accordingly, however I don't believe that should automatically mean more lockdown.

I do think a strategy of allow people to take responsibility for their own mitigation might actually be more useful. People seem to be reacting increasingly badly to the Bullingdon Club mentality, which seems to be to treat the population like naughty school children.

 

[Ianno87]

I have to say I am increasingly of the opinion that the Christmas Bubble should be abandoned.

Firstly, as others have noted, there is absolutely nothing special about December 23rd - 27th. It sends completely the wrong message that it can be so dangerous that you can't visit a restaurant on December 22nd and 28th but in between those dates everything is fine.

Secondly, as this goes for the tier system more generally, is that is will cause people to act more recklessly than if we had a simpler, more sustainable, set of rules. Tell people that they have "5 days off for good behaviour" before being locked inside again for who knows how many months to come and people will take it (and then those in charge will act shocked when they do) For examples of that just look at what happened before Lockdown 2 and in the run-up to entering tier 3 - People see a final chance to do stuff and take it.

It is a terrible decision to have to make...but if the alternative is lockdown 3 in January I know what decision I would take.

I agree with your point that a system of consistent sustainable rules would have been preferable, but unfortunately that ship sailed when we went for the hokey-kokey lockdown dance instead.

People need to consider the risks to their relatives and act accordingly, however I don't believe that should automatically mean more lockdown.

The Christmas rule ought to be "apply some bloody common sense".... but we know how well that will work with the great British population.

All I'm doing for Christmas, and want to do for Christmas (that I wouldn't be able to under my tiers) is see my Mum for a couple of days. That's it. But i just know there'll be some people that royally take the biscuit....

 

[initiation]

I agree with your point that a system of consistent sustainable rules would have been preferable, but unfortunately that ship sailed when we went for the hokey-kokey lockdown dance instead.

Unfortunately SAGE will 'advise' that the only sustainable rule is tier 3 or possibly tier 2 - see comments a week or two ago about tier 1 not being able to 'control' the virus.

I am all for more personal responsibility and fully support the Christmas relaxation (and it should stay that way!). I hope it reminds people of what they have been missing out on over the last 9 months and there will be bigger calls for a reduction in measures.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Anybody in Cornwall or know much about how Tier One has gone down there? Have infection rates shot, or even crept up?

 

[marty1977]

I personally can't see the government changing the rules for Christmas at this late stage, whatever you think about the rights or wrongs of it no prime minister wants to be remembered as the one that cancelled Christmas.
Secondly they know there would be mass non compliance that would be impossible to control. I for one haven't seen my family since August, I had a new baby in October who they are desperate to see. Whatever the government says me and my family have decided we will be continuing with the plans that we have already made. We think we are better placed to make a decision on what's the best thing to do rather than some incompetent half wit in Westminster.

 

[Mag_seven]

I do think a strategy of allow people to take responsibility for their own mitigation might actually be more useful.

We can't have that, people being allowed to make decisions for themselves!

 

[Mojo]

We need testing, and a tracing service that's fit for purpose, not ruddy lockdowns.

Test and trace is going to be very difficult going forward now. Trust is decreasing continuously and accordingly engagement with the system to a meaningful level will falter. Simply phoning someone and asking them who their contacts are was quite obviously never going to be very effective in the first place.

Unfortunately SAGE will 'advise' that the only sustainable rule is tier 3 or possibly tier 2 - see comments a week or two ago about tier 1 not being able to 'control' the virus.

I am all for more personal responsibility and fully support the Christmas relaxation (and it should stay that way!). I hope it reminds people of what they have been missing out on over the last 9 months and there will be bigger calls for a reduction in measures.

It’s a bit late in the day to be cancelling Christmas now anyway;
aside from vegetables and bread/milk/cream I’m already stocked up now with my food for our visitors and I imagine many others are too due to the possibility of extensive supermarket queues next week.

 

[Bantamzen]

I tend to agree that *if* the consequence is going to be that the government decides to do another lockdown January, then all this fuss over Christmas is daft.

Do you honestly believe that if the Christmas relaxation was cancelled the experts and some ministers wouldn't still be pushing for Lockdown v3.0. After all they've got their new "mutant virus" excuse lined up and ready....

The Christmas rule ought to be "apply some bloody common sense".... but we know how well that will work with the great British population.

All I'm doing for Christmas, and want to do for Christmas (that I wouldn't be able to under my tiers) is see my Mum for a couple of days. That's it. But i just know there'll be some people that royally take the biscuit....

So as long as your needs are met, stuff anyone with large families that have obeyed the rules all year? This seems to be a lockdown theme.....

 

[bramling]

The Christmas rule ought to be "apply some bloody common sense".... but we know how well that will work with the great British population.

All I'm doing for Christmas, and want to do for Christmas (that I wouldn't be able to under my tiers) is see my Mum for a couple of days. That's it. But i just know there'll be some people that royally take the biscuit....

They will take the biscuit regardless of what the “rules” say. Right back to March there’s been little to stop people heading down to Tesco and filling the trolley with alcohol, then having a domestic gathering. Only if it’s a full-on rave would attention be attracted.

I personally can't see the government changing the rules for Christmas at this late stage, whatever you think about the rights or wrongs of it no prime minister wants to be remembered as the one that cancelled Christmas.
Secondly they know there would be mass non compliance that would be impossible to control. I for one haven't seen my family since August, I had a new baby in October who they are desperate to see. Whatever the government says me and my family have decided we will be continuing with the plans that we have already made. We think we are better placed to make a decision on what's the best thing to do rather than some incompetent half wit in Westminster.

I don’t think they will cancel it, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see hospitality getting shafted again.

 

[LAX54]

People will mingle at Christmas unless there are soldiers on ever street corner with a shoot on sight order. The knock on effect will be, imho, a spike of cases in mid January.

You could say that it will selfish but so much is made of this time of the year I really can't blame people wanting to see their loved ones. You really never know what will happen between now and next Christmas.

The question is of course what the government response will be. More of the same I guess.

With less than two weeks to go, then people will now have made arrangements, and started to get food in, ready for their visitors, so U turn or not, a majority will still go ahead, some food you could keep, most would be 'at' their use by date and binned if it all fell flat

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I haven’t kept up with what the restrictions are in the different Tiers in England, but thought I’d better check Tier 3 rules as my job involves travelling into London.
I am gobsmacked that whilst hospitality must close, non-essential retail remains open. I don’t like any of these restrictions on our civil liberties, but in the run-up to Christmas, which of those two categories of venue are more likely to attract huge numbers of people, mixing in close proximity? These rules have absolutely no logic.
You can’t have a drink in a pub that has spent huge sums putting in divider screens and other measures including limits on how many people are inside the premises, but you can go to a Westfield shopping mall in Shepherds Bush or Stratford and intermingle with thousands of strangers??

 

[adc82140]

Anybody in Cornwall or know much about how Tier One has gone down there? Have infection rates shot, or even crept up?

Cases have fallen, as have cases on the Isle of Wight. This is despite pretty much every pub goer in Plymouth heading to Saltash to go to the pub, and a good chunk of day trippers from Hampshire, Dorset and Sussex heading to the IOW.

 

[Mojo]

I haven’t kept up with what the restrictions are in the different Tiers in England, but thought I’d better check Tier 3 rules as my job involves travelling into London.
I am gobsmacked that whilst hospitality must close, non-essential retail remains open. I don’t like any of these restrictions on our civil liberties, but in the run-up to Christmas, which of those two categories of venue are more likely to attract huge numbers of people, mixing in close proximity? These rules have absolutely no logic.
You can’t have a drink in a pub that has spent huge sums putting in divider screens and other measures including limits on how many people are inside the premises, but you can go to a Westfield shopping mall in Shepherds Bush or Stratford and intermingle with thousands of strangers??

The logic presumably being that shops will have clearly defined capacity limits? Of course this has no bearing on what goes on outside (see pictures from recent weeks of Harrods and Regent St) but they have always said transmission is less outdoor.

 

[DB]

The logic presumably being that shops will have clearly defined capacity limits? Of course this has no bearing on what goes on outside (see pictures from recent weeks of Harrods and Regent St) but they have always said transmission is less outdoor.

So have pubs under the previous 'table service only' rules.

 

[island]

The logic presumably being that shops will have clearly defined capacity limits? Of course this has no bearing on what goes on outside (see pictures from recent weeks of Harrods and Regent St) but they have always said transmission is less outdoor.

As to which Sadiq is agitating for masks to be made mandatory outdoors in “crowded areas”.

 

[Mojo]

So have pubs under the previous 'table service only' rules.

The difference being that most customers in a shop will be wearing a muzzle (they are under the belief that face coverings will reduce transmission) and there will be no prolonged close contact between customers. They are probably also thinking of the fact that if subjected to a long-term closure most shops would probably be able to change their stocks to justify staying open, and from an economic point of view, people will buy stuff anyway just receive it in a different way.

Whereas in a restaurant / cafe I have been to plenty where you are less than two metres from other tables; you are in the same location for a prolonged period of time plus you also have the waitresses leaning over to bring you food / take away empties.

I am in no way defending this; there is no evidence that hospitality is a mass transmitter, I believe that closing such businesses will affect wellbeing more than leaving it open, but if they believe what they are doing, then there is probably a case to justify closing hospitality before they close shops.