New build rolling stock for charters - is it feasible? What would it look like?

[yorksrob]

I did have the impression it was aimed at a certain specific operator of heritage traction and coaches on the mainline who don't exactly have a superb reputation.

There are certainly very competent preserved railways - not least the Ffestiniog Railway which build their own kit from scratch!

I know and travel on some very competent preserved mainline operators as well.

 

[randyrippley]

What makes you think people would want to pay to travel on a charter in a Leyland National on a (bogied) flat wagon?

If you don't tell them they won't know.............actually I was thinking all those GUVs lying spare at Long Preston would be ideal candidates

photos

Leyland coach

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

 

[Non Multi]

Controversial, but if you're on a tight budget, why wouldn't you consider getting the Chinese (eg CSRE) to build a complete low-cost mk1 styled coach? Send it over on the boat. Get it approved, all sorted.

 

[randyrippley]

Controversial, but if you're on a tight budget, why wouldn't you consider getting the Chinese (eg CSRE) to build a complete low-cost mk1 styled coach? Send it over on the boat. Get it approved, all sorted.

Interesting thought........for a long period (may even be true now) their standard coach was based on a BR International design.
If that is still in production it could be an answer

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting thought........for a long period (may even be true now) their standard coach was based on a BR International design.
If that is still in production it could be an answer

The cost, even if made by the Chinese, would still be out of the question, not to mention the costs of getting type approval on the mainline railway.

 

[Non Multi]

The cost, even if made by the Chinese, would still be out of the question, not to mention the costs of getting type approval on the mainline railway.

Could be a foot in the door for the Chinese, would they consider building a demonstrator at a loss?

 

[JonathanH]

Could be a foot in the door for the Chinese, would they consider building a demonstrator at a loss?

Seems unlikely any entity would build a whole rake of charter coaches for practically nothing without some reasonable expectation of future orders.

 

[Non Multi]

Seems unlikely any entity would build a whole rake of charter coaches for practically nothing without some reasonable expectation of future orders.

A rake? Would 1 or 2 not suffice as demonstrators and to get approval? Could new build coaches be funded by a ROSCO and leased/hired out by operators when required?

 

[Romsey]

Up thread someone mentioned the cost of new or refurbished vehicles and someone else mentioned 40 to 50 days use per year. Those two things really encapsulate the problem. £ in very large numbers to solve the problem.

I think we have missed the chance with mark 3's as those which are left available probably need large sums to sort out the corrosion under the toilets and step areas. Just look at the delays to XC, Scotrail and GWR refurbishments and power door installation. Opening windows would not actually be a problem - the windows are very close to 455 and 150's and hopper vents are available.

Saphos have an owner with very deep pockets, which is how they have restored so much stock to superb condition. Likewise WCRC have external funding from their owner. Upmarket operators like Northern Belle and British Belmond Pullman have a multinational backer. It's the the other players who are looking at problems with CET and over-ride strengthening being the final game changer.

At the moment outside Saphos and West Coast and "posh dining operations" there are not many sets of stock suitable for charters, Riviera Trains, Vintage Trains and SRPS. That will limit the railtour market almost more than loco provision.

The business case for loco hauled coaching stock is appalling, maybe 40 weekends per year plus ECS movements to and from their base. Probably 300+ days per year collecting seagull c*** on the roof and not earning money.

The 5 WES idea was kicked around within the industry in the late 1990's as an idea for short and cheap steam shuttles. No need for a T&T loco as the WES could haul the the steam loco for a short leg like Southampton - Eastleigh or Portsmouth - Havant. It even made good use of units not needed on Sunday mornings before Sunday evening formation strengthening. The trail went cold when SWT found they couldn't operate steam traction under their franchise agreement and would need third party involvement. Then it took longer to restore the suggested loco due to other problems.

In conclusion, stop donating to restoring locos for a year and rebuild mark 1 coaches for a couple of years. Just expect small players may drop out of the market in 2023 when the CET and door locking regulations apply. Whatever happens the market will be increasingly dominated by those with very deep pockets......

 

[Philip Phlopp]

A rake? Would 1 or 2 not suffice as demonstrators and to get approval? Could new build coaches be funded by a ROSCO and leased/hired out by operators when required?

What sort of profit margin do you think there is on warm beer and cold pies ?

There's an extreme outside possibility that an ultra-high end super-luxury train may make a marginal business case - but we're talking £10,000 tickets, waiter/butler service and food from Michelin starred chefs.

 

[43096]

Could new build coaches be funded by a ROSCO and leased/hired out by operators when required?

As I said above, if you went to a ROSCO proposing leasing of brand new stock for charters, they'd laugh themselves silly.

There is zero business case for new charter stock. Total cloud cuckoo, away with the fairies stuff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In conclusion, stop donating to restoring locos for a year and rebuild mark 1 coaches for a couple of years. Just expect small players may drop out of the market in 2023 when the CET and door locking regulations apply. Whatever happens the market will be increasingly dominated by those with very deep pockets......

Chiltern fitted CDL to their Mk1 DMUs for not very much, and there were almost as many doors on those as on a Mk1 charter set

CETs, well, for charter stock that isn't going to be in service continuously could a cheap option be used like some sort of caravan-style Elsan or the innards of a polybog?

If the droplights are an issue, seal them, Mk1s have interior handles anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

If the droplights are an issue, seal them, Mk1s have interior handles anyway.

Mk1s don't have interior handles. 4VEPs (and other suburban layout units) retained interior handles but they were blanked on other stock. The 'squeeze' model of interior door handle used on a 4VEP probably wouldn't be suitable for modern use in any case.

 

[60019]

There was a serious proposal from the A1LS to convert Mk3 suburban units to LHCS, but IDK what the current status of that idea is.

 

[JonathanH]

There was a serious proposal from the A1LS to convert Mk3 suburban units to LHCS, but IDK what the current status of that idea is.

No, that was to use Mk3 locomotive hauled coaches, not suburban unit coaches (but as you say, it appears to have gone away)

Tornado to get state-of-the-art charter train! - The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust

90mph testing for Tornado in spring 2017, new mainline connected base and Gresley class V4 planned The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust announced at its Annual Convention on Saturday 1st October that it would be building a state-of-the-art charter train. The train is to be constructed from locomotive...

www.a1steam.com

The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust announced at its Annual Convention on Saturday 1st October that it would be building a state-of-the-art charter train. The train is to be constructed from locomotive hauled Mk3 carriages currently in use in East Anglia which will be extensively refurbished and overhauled for their new role.

The yet-to-be named new train will set new standards in a railtour market long dominated by difficult to maintain 60 years or older vehicles. As with all modern trains, it will be equipped with air conditioning, central door locking, controlled emission toilets, power at seat and persons with restricted mobility facilities. The passenger vehicles will also all be fitted with opening windows so those travelling can still experience the sound of Tornado working hard more clearly should they wish to do so and consideration is being given to equipping them with Wi-Fi. Although the final formation of the train is yet to be determined, it will include kitchen car(s) to enable high quality meals to be delivered to 250 First Class Dining passengers, a new support coach which will provide accommodation for the support crew and the locomotive’s day-to-day spares and consumables and a service vehicle with generator and staff accommodation. The train will also carry sufficient additional water to extend Tornado’s range to around 200 miles. The refurbished train is expected to enter service towards the end of 2019.

I assume they had to divert any funds they had anticipated for that project to keeping Tornado running instead, particularly in the light of the mishap on 14 April 2018 (on which date, incidentally, the train was hauling a rake of predominately Mk2f coaches). It does seem a bit odd that they made such a bold statement in 2016 and, now the coaches have become available, it hasn't happened - they must have had an agreement with Porterbrook to take on the carriages to make the statement in the first place.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It's relatively normal for narrow gauge preserved railways to either build coaches in-house or have them custom built. It wouldn't be a huge stretch from there for a standard gauge heritage railway to order something similar. For going up and down a short track at 25mph mainline coaches are arguably quite overengineered anyway.

On the mainline though - it's only economic to run charters with the cast-offs of mainline operations. Unless there's a very very good reason, no-one is going to pay for newbuild mainline charter stock. But, trains are always retiring. It might not be the loco hauled stock you were wanting but there will always be something you can run a charter with.

Who's to say Tornado won't pull a rake of old sprinters on a railtour in 20 years time?

 

[DB]

It's relatively normal for narrow gauge preserved railways to either build coaches in-house or have them custom built. It wouldn't be a huge stretch from there for a standard gauge heritage railway to order something similar. For going up and down a short track at 25mph mainline coaches are arguably quite overengineered anyway.

There is the occasional standard-gauge example too - the DVLR, just outside York, has a small carriage built locally, using a wagon underframe I believe. For a short line like this it's ideal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's relatively normal for narrow gauge preserved railways to either build coaches in-house or have them custom built. It wouldn't be a huge stretch from there for a standard gauge heritage railway to order something similar. For going up and down a short track at 25mph mainline coaches are arguably quite overengineered anyway.

Yes and no - if I recall correctly the Cannon St accident involved hitting the buffers at 15mph, and that was enough to cause telescoping, despite if it had been a car accident it would have been in the "very minor, just damage" sort of category.

 

[6Gman]

It's specifically droplights that are a problem. Hopper or sliding windows are fine.



I don't think cost would necessarily be a dealbreaker. If the sector as a whole could agree a suitable spec and order enough vehicles, there's no reason why you couldn't agree a deal with a leasing company that would spread cost over a long period.

You still need to pay the leasing companies month in, month out for sporadic charter use.

The figures are very, very unlikely to stack up (and I used to plan charter services).

 

[DB]

You still need to pay the leasing companies month in, month out for sporadic charter use.

The figures are very, very unlikely to stack up (and I used to plan charter services).

Plus if you look at the proportion of charter operators who go bust, it's a high proportion - seems very unlikely that a ROSCO would be prepared to risk It.

 

[Journeyman]

Interesting comments from everyone. I guess it's not a goer, then!

De-motored 153s and 156s, then?

 

[Irascible]

Interesting comments from everyone. I guess it's not a goer, then!

De-motored 153s and 156s, then?

156 would not be without merit, if they weren't likely to be in use for years still... a steam-powered 153 sounds like a spectacular combination of hells though!

I suspect reusing all the old Emu trailers currently being withdrawn might be too much hassle.

What do our friends across La Manche do? I guess they haven't gone entirely to unit trains so not such an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do our friends across La Manche do? I guess they haven't gone entirely to unit trains so not such an issue.

Mostly use old RIC compartment coaches, e.g. a huge number of ex-DB Bm235s. Much more LHCS out there as you say, and they aren't as bothered about the safety aspects as we are.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Yes and no - if I recall correctly the Cannon St accident involved hitting the buffers at 15mph, and that was enough to cause telescoping, despite if it had been a car accident it would have been in the "very minor, just damage" sort of category.

Wow, I didn't realise quite how weak Mk1 coaches were actually. That's concerning.

Still, I'm sure newbuild lightweight coaches for preserved railways are possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you don't tell them they won't know.............actually I was thinking all those GUVs lying spare at Long Preston would be ideal candidates

photos

Leyland coach

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

That's basically an unpowered and cabless 153, isn't it?

No thanks.

Wow, I didn't realise quite how weak Mk1 coaches were actually. That's concerning.

They weren't much more than a tin shed on top of a heavy underframe - a Land Rover Defender is the car equivalent, being a lightweight, non-structural body on a heavy chassis. The underframe was very strong, but in even a minor accident one rode above the other and basically demolished the non-structural body of the adjacent coach plus anything in it.

Pacers, and possibly that Leyland coach, were a bit better in that the bus derived body has some structural strength. 153s are actually integral using the same kind of body, though some of them do seem to have a pronounced sag in the middle.

 

[Journeyman]

Wow, I didn't realise quite how weak Mk1 coaches were actually. That's concerning.

Still, I'm sure newbuild lightweight coaches for preserved railways are possible.

They weren't Mark 1 coaches - they were SR design EPB units, which used recycled bits going back to the 1920s, and were ridiculously flimsy, even compared to Mark 1s.

 

[43096]

Interesting comments from everyone. I guess it's not a goer, then!

De-motored 153s and 156s, then?

How are you heating them if they're de-motored? You're better starting with EMU stock.

Besides, they're barely any newer than late build Mark 3s, including, dare I suggest it, 442s.

 

[Journeyman]

How are you heating them if they're de-motored? You're better starting with EMU stock.

Besides, they're barely any newer than late build Mark 3s, including, dare I suggest it, 442s.

Fitting ETH won't be difficult. I went for 153/155/156 because of the end door layout, which is much better than the Mark 3 EMU layout, the opening windows at good spacing and the gangways at both ends of every vehicle.

 

[CBlue]

Fitting ETH won't be difficult. I went for 153/155/156 because of the end door layout, which is much better than the Mark 3 EMU layout, the opening windows at good spacing and the gangways at both ends of every vehicle.

Do those Sprinters have electric heaters? I assumed they ran off the engine coolant.

 

[Journeyman]

Do those Sprinters have electric heaters? I assumed they ran off the engine coolant.

No, they don't have electric heat, but it was fitted to Mark 1s that were originally steam heat only, so why would this be any different?