New electric loco's????

[Phoenix]

Well seen as though the topic of the month seems to be electrification scheme's popping up here and yes everywhere I thought that well seen as though
the 87's have gone (accept for the blue one).
the 86's have seen better days (And may be off on their holidays soon.
The 92's are undecided on whether there English or french.
And finally the 90's are well doing okay.

What are we going to do about new electric loco's????
Because as much as we can bang on about the IEP not involving locos we cannot deny that electric freight is also a key factor in the sustainability of these new wires.
Obviously since the class 92's were built we have actually had a reduction in the need for electrics but now times are changing.
And yes of course we can roster some of the old boys (86/90) back onto to work but really we need to start buying some new metal.

Any thought's.......

 

[Royston Vasey]

14 Class 90s and 22 Class 92s are in storage (according to wnxx.com) - first things first old boy! If any new wires can cope with the thirst of the 92s why design and make more electric locos, where's the business case for it? Why discard hundreds of new/nearly new 66s? Efficient modern diesel locos shouldn't be any less sustainable than electrics when the electric is still produced using coal and gas, which it will for a good while yet.

 

[Phoenix]

Okay yes EWS could do with getting their act together when sparks are concerned I will agree on that.
But the first thing is the 86's they are getting slightly past it now and a replacement will eventually need to be sourced as the new class 68/61 are only being produced for new services so a handful of new electrics will need sourcing.
Okay there is no need to take the 66's off their current services but it has been proven that in most cases electrics 9when designed to a high standard) can be the most powerful,fast,efficient locos around.
Okay once again you have me as yes you do need to produce the energy but heres a problem for you when we start leaning toward nuclear and renewable energy sources will you be able to use that argument against electrics.

 

[87015]

Very little chance of new electrics IMO with the current setup. It'd be nice to have a progressive railway, but this is Britain - the 'failure' of DRS 86/87 experiments says it all...sheds are the future however rancid that is to us.

Sure I've read the TRAXX design from Europe can be scaled into a UK bodyshell which would fit the bill should someone ever want some.

 

[Phoenix]

Very little chance of new electrics IMO with the current setup. It'd be nice to have a progressive railway, but this is Britain - the 'failure' of DRS 86/87 experiments says it all...sheds are the future however rancid that is to us.

Sure I've read the TRAXX design from Europe can be scaled into a UK body shell which would fit the bill should someone ever want some.

Ive had a slight glance at Rail express today and there apparently is some consideration of the rail jet project coming to Britain and also a similar concept to the current Metronom services in Germany.
But in consideration of the DRS experiements my views remain the same as with DRS they like to try anything and everything and have run many diesel based projects and soon enough dumped the Idea.
I always consider GBRF as a good example as to the uses of more electric locos seen as though they loved sending 87's 110MPhH up the ECMLand WCML doing bits and bobs and would have probably continued to do so if OMTR wasn't an issue.

 

[Waverley125]

as said, we have 36 electric freight locos in storage that can be brought back into use. Admittedly, there are also calls for these to be used on passenger services (e.g. NXEC London-Leeds), and they have long been proven capable of that. But until major wiring is done there's no point bringing them back. Edinburgh-Glasgow fia Falkirk including Grangemouth branch), The Transpennine mainline, Felixstowe Docks, Hull Docks, Leeds-Selby, Doncaster-Hull and Norwich-Ely-Peterborough-Birmingham all need wiring, and the ECML & GEML both need rewiring. That's a couple of thousand miles of line for sparks before we can even contemplate bringing back those 36 locos. First things first.

 

[87015]

First things first.

Surely that would be using electrics under the wires. At a rough estimate at least 50% of the freight on the Southern WCML is diesel hauled, changing engines at Ipswich or wherever shouldn't be that difficult.

Wouldn't hold GBRf up as a pinnacle of excellent, Hams Hall (Well, Lawley St) - Felixstowe liners were electrically hauled from Rug or Nuneaton in BR days, but until we get back to such a structure it won't happen again.

 

[rail-britain]

as said, we have 36 electric freight locos in storage that can be brought back into use

Not all of them could be though, as some of them have been pretty much cannabalised for spares, so probably 30 at the most
Rail operators are also now reluctant to change locos en-route, hence why many freight services which used to change traction type en-route no longer do so

The only main FOC likely to purchase replacement electric locos in the near future will be Freightliner, and even then they may decide to centralise on a Class 66 design, seeing the end of their Class 86 fleet and the transfer away of their remaining Class 90 fleet

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The big problem with the current set up is not so much where you change locos (although that is an issue), or how many electric locos are available (isn't one of those 90s fire damaged and striped of parts?), but where the wires actually go. For example the south end of the Midland Mainline is electrified, the North London line, which crosses it three times, is electrified, but how many of the lines that connect them are electrified? NONE.

If you wanted to get from Doncaster to Bedford for example (why, I don't know), with a 66 you could go across to Sheffield and down the MML, if you've got a 92 (assuming it can actually go down this route) you have to go down the ECML to the NLL, over to Willesden (passing directly over the MML three times), through Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction, round to Blackfriars and up the MML to Bedford. If you have a 90 you need another loco!

 

[Phoenix]

I was quite surprised that freightliner actually own more 86's than 90's okay yes the 86's are most of the time in pairs so that means rather than replacing every 86 only half the number a needed really.
But I don't see the freight liner 90's going anywhere anytime soon as all are in service and don't seem to be causing way to much trouble and little do we forget are actually relatively new in railway years.
I guess we will have to see what happens with the new Euro phoenix project as a few locos may be still used on British metals and will end up being given an extra 10-15 years.
But on the whole I still think a electric loco renewal may be on it's way.

 

[rail-britain]

The big problem with the current set up is not so much where you change locos (although that is an issue), or how many electric locos are available (isn't one of those 90s fire damaged and striped of parts?), but where the wires actually go. For example the south end of the Midland Mainline is electrified, the North London line, which crosses it three times, is electrified, but how many of the lines that connect them are electrified? NONE

It's one of the sad concepts of electrification that when you look at what freight services actually operate most, if not all, would need to change traction type at some point along their route
BR made a decision in the early 1990s to convert many WCML freight services from pairs of Class 86 and 87, or Class 90 over to pairs of Class 37s
This released most of the electric fleet back to passenger use or to Freightliner (as it was expanding at such a rate that it was going to run out of locos within 2 years)

That legacy has pretty much remained to this day, with most WCML freight now operated by high power diesel locos

Assuming that NXEA have their fleet of Class 90 and Mark 3 coaches replaced with either a cascade of Class 390s or a new express type EMU, then it is likely those lcoos will be scrapped as by then they will be 30 years old
Remember the Class 90 shares the same bogie design as the Class 87 and although the electric components could last 100 years, the bogies only last half that

 

[Phoenix]

It's one of the sad concepts of electrification that when you look at what freight services actually operate most, if not all, would need to change traction type at some point along their route
BR made a decision in the early 1990s to convert many WCML freight services from pairs of Class 86 and 87, or Class 90 over to pairs of Class 37s
This released most of the electric fleet back to passenger use or to Freightliner (as it was expanding at such a rate that it was going to run out of locos within 2 years)

That legacy has pretty much remained to this day, with most WCML freight now operated by high power diesel locos

Assuming that NXEA have their fleet of Class 90 and Mark 3 coaches replaced with either a cascade of Class 390s or a new express type EMU, then it is likely those lcoos will be scrapped as by then they will be 30 years old
Remember the Class 90 shares the same bogie design as the Class 87 and although the electric components could last 100 years, the bogies only last half that

Well with what you were saying about the legacy of BR well I am sure the mold can be broken as BR was known for not thinking a situation through in depth.

And about NXEA 390's????? you dreaming or something I will fall HARD on the floor in shock.
I think that seen as though the GE is getting OHLE upgrades eventually that maybe the by then slightly old class 92's may be able to pick up these services.

 

[37402]

the 'failure' of DRS 86/87 experiments says it all...sheds are the future however rancid that is to us.

Not necessarily. Think quite a few people may be pleasantly surprised in 2009!

 

[Phoenix]

Not necessarily. Think quite a few people may be pleasantly surprised in 2009!

Go on tell us about the next year

 

[djw1981]

Freightliners Genesis Loco I assume

 

[Jx^]

Go on tell us about the next year

Bear in mind that DRS now own another 37/4 and a Deltic....

 

[Phoenix]

I think it's more important that the new genesis locos will be off the shelf and on the tracks also there will be more javelin action (do they go into service next year).
On the preservation front the sole surviving class 17 clayton will be a running loco once again.
I think maybe a new thread is in order for next years developments.