New EMR service 2141 Manchester to Nottingham

[Llandudno]

Caught the new later fast train from Piccadilly last night on its first day of operation, encouragingly for the first day a very quiet pandemic Monday evening it carried around 20 passengers.

But the train although leaving Piccadilly on time ended up 30 minutes late into Sheffield because according to the guard, there was a stopping train in front of us.

This seemed odd to me as the new train is due to depart:
Sheffield 2141 and arrive in Sheffield 2234 (no Stockport stop so routed via Marple) eventually arrived Sheffield 2300

If the guard was correct we got stuck behind the Northern stopper which departed Piccadilly at 2119 and is due in Sheffield at 2252.

If the EMR train and Northern train both operate via Marple, there is nowhere for the EMR express to overtake, so won’t the EMR train be 30 minutes late every night?

Wouldn’t it have made more sense for the 2141 to be retimed a bit later from Piccadilly so it doesn’t get stuck behind the stopper?

or am I missing something here...?

 

[jfollows]

1L20 21:41 Manchester-Nottingham (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C95389/2021-05-17/detailed) is booked to pass 2S38 21:19 Manchester-Sheffield (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09711/2021-05-17/detailed#allox_id=0) at New Mills South Junction.

2S38 should arrive 21:54.5 and leave at 22:07
1L20 should pass at 22:02

Yesterday 2S38 did not stop and wait, and therefore 1L20 was delayed by it later on as you describe.

EDIT I note that the Sectional Appendix (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix February 2021.pdf) still refers to an Up Goods Loop at New Mills South Junction, which would not ordinarily be usable by passenger trains such as 2S38. Attached signalling diagram from 2014 for interest.

I don't know enough to know if my guess is the reason, but hopefully some other reader will know more than me and be able to enlighten us. It could simply be that whoever was working in New Mills South Junction last night didn't read the timetable and inadvertently let 2S38 go first.

EDIT Working timetable pages also attached for interest

FURTHER EDIT Thank you to the moderator who edited this post, I have worked out what you did and why and will avoid a future recurrence (basically I exposed some information which has now been redacted)

 

[Llandudno]

1L20 21:41 Manchester-Nottingham (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C95389/2021-05-17/detailed) is booked to pass 2S38 21:19 Manchester-Sheffield (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09711/2021-05-17/detailed#allox_id=0) at New Mills South Junction.

2S38 should arrive 21:54.5 and leave at 22:07
1L20 should pass at 22:02

Yesterday 2S38 did not stop and wait, and therefore 1L20 was delayed by it later on as you describe.

Great detailed knowledge, I wonder why the Northern stopper wasn’t held at New Mills South Junction as the EMR fast was running to time...?

 

[edwin_m]

It's certainly still a goods line in the February Sectional Appendix download (latest on the NR website).

 

[LowLevel]

You're on the money - it's a planning error that should have been resolved at the planning stage but wasn't. The train uses the path of the former 5M60 Manchester to Nottingham ECS which for the last few years has been booked to pass 2S38 by using the up goods loop at New Mills South Junction.

Now both trains are passenger services neither can use the up goods loop (it isn't signalled to passenger standards) and thus you are snookered and the new 1L20 has no choice but to follow 2S38 as there is nowhere to overtake it.

Planning a passenger service to use a goods line is an oversight that should have been picked up long before the path was agreed.

 

[jfollows]

You're on the money - it's a planning error that should have been resolved at the planning stage but wasn't. The train uses the path of the former 5M60 Manchester to Nottingham ECS which for the last few years has been booked to pass 2S38 by using the up goods loop at New Mills South Junction.

Now both trains are passenger services neither can use the up goods loop (it isn't signalled to passenger standards) and thus you are snookered and the new 1L20 has no choice but to follow 2S38 as there is nowhere to overtake it.

Planning a passenger service to use a goods line is an oversight that should have been picked up long before the path was agreed.

Thank you, how interesting, formerly the fast train (5M60) used the goods loop to pass the stopper (2S38) which had to be held for it on the main line, which was slightly unusual in itself.

But interesting to know the background.

 

[Llandudno]

You're on the money - it's a planning error that should have been resolved at the planning stage but wasn't. The train uses the path of the former 5M60 Manchester to Nottingham ECS which for the last few years has been booked to pass 2S38 by using the up goods loop at New Mills South Junction.

Now both trains are passenger services neither can use the up goods loop (it isn't signalled to passenger standards) and thus you are snookered and the new 1L20 has no choice but to follow 2S38 as there is nowhere to overtake it.

Planning a passenger service to use a goods line is an oversight that should have been picked up long before the path was agreed.

Wow!

Does this suggest that the 2141 Sheffield to Nottingham is going to run 30 minutes late into Sheffield every night, wouldn’t it be better if it’s departure from Piccadilly was retimed later and advertised as such, if a path exists 2200 ish from Piccadilly maybe preferable in any case?

 

[deltic]

You're on the money - it's a planning error that should have been resolved at the planning stage but wasn't. The train uses the path of the former 5M60 Manchester to Nottingham ECS which for the last few years has been booked to pass 2S38 by using the up goods loop at New Mills South Junction.

Now both trains are passenger services neither can use the up goods loop (it isn't signalled to passenger standards) and thus you are snookered and the new 1L20 has no choice but to follow 2S38 as there is nowhere to overtake it.

Planning a passenger service to use a goods line is an oversight that should have been picked up long before the path was agreed.

Intrigued as to why its safe for an ECS move to use the loop but not when its carrying passengers. Its either safe to use or its not.

 

[jfollows]

Intrigued as to why its safe for an ECS move to use the loop but not when its carrying passengers. Its either safe to use or its not.

No, there's no expectation that a goods line is not safe to use, but it may not be set up and maintained in a way that is required for passenger trains. Maybe more historically, facing points might not have facing point locks. Signals may allow permissive operation, to allow more than one train in a section, which is generally not allowed for passenger lines. So there's no expectation that a freight train or an empty stock train is going to come to grief on such a line, but passenger trains aren't allowed to use them. And the Sectional Appendix is a reasonable indicator of this, as we've noted earlier.

Wow!

Does this suggest that the 2141 Sheffield to Nottingham is going to run 30 minutes late into Sheffield every night, wouldn’t it be better if it’s departure from Piccadilly was retimed later and advertised as such, if a path exists 2200 ish from Piccadilly maybe preferable in any case?

One solution would be to reroute the new fast train, 1L20, via Stockport, in which case the stopper, 2S38, can be held at New Mills South junction until it passes. This seems quite common during the daytime. However there's presumably a reason in the first place why 1L20 is routed via Marple as you and the working timetable both confirm.
Clearly another solution would be to upgrade the Up Goods Loop at New Mills South Junction to passenger standards, it's almost certainly in the formation of the former Up Slow (I'm guessing) anyway. However this can't be done by a wave of a wand and is presumably one of many upgrades in the pipeline for the Hope Valley route anyway.

 

[notlob.divad]

However there's presumably a reason in the first place why 1L20 is routed via Marple as you and the working timetable both confirm.

Was this not one of those ECS workings that is routed via an alternate route to maintain drivers route knowledge for diversionary purpose, without the need for dedicated training trips over the line.

 

[jfollows]

Was this not one of those ECS workings that is routed via an alternate route to maintain drivers route knowledge for diversionary purpose, without the need for dedicated training trips over the line.

That makes sense, and you can sort of sense how this problem built up over time:

1. 2S38 or something like it ran, and was held at New Mills South Junction for a faster train to go in front of it
2. The faster train was routed via Marple for route knowledge, because someone realised it could trundle past 2S38 in the Up Goods Loop since it wasn't a passenger service
3. Time passed
4. Yesterday's timetable was in error, in part because someone didn't know or forgot how the passing manoeuvre originally came about
5. Maybe now the route knowledge will have to be maintained by a different service, or ....?

 

[LowLevel]

That makes sense, and you can sort of sense how this problem built up over time:

1. 2S38 or something like it ran, and was held at New Mills South Junction for a faster train to go in front of it
2. The faster train was routed via Marple for route knowledge, because someone realised it could trundle past 2S38 in the Up Goods Loop since it wasn't a passenger service
3. Time passed
4. Yesterday's timetable was in error, in part because someone didn't know or forgot how the passing manoeuvre originally came about
5. Maybe now the route knowledge will have to be maintained by a different service, or ....?

I *think* 2S38 was either an additional service or originally routed via Stockport (for the same reason EM/TPE route via Romiley - route retention) and the condition of it running via Marple was it's allowing 5M60 to overtake to maintain it's own path.

I do recall several years ago that train standing on the up Hope Valley line from Hazel Grove while 5M60 ran in front without using the goods loop, I seem to recall it was booked a pair of 142s.

As for the goods loop, entry is controlled by a shunt arm rather than a main arm which suggests it is permissively worked (not got the sectional appendix to hand to check) and it also has traps/catch points at either end. It would be a resignalling job to make it suitable for regular passenger use for the sake one of 1 train per day.

 

[jfollows]

Sectional appendix page for interest/information.

PF - Permissive Working for class 3 to 8 and 0 trains

 

[Geeves]

There's a few of these 'stopper in front of express' mishaps in the last week, once it reaches Milton Keynes it will be sorted, probably by next week. The timings have no doubt been entered wrong somewhere

 

[LowLevel]

There's a few of these 'stopper in front of express' mishaps in the last week, once it reached Milton Keynes it will be sorted, probably by next week. The timings have no doubt been entered wrong somewhere

This one is slightly unusual though as it is a failed existing mitigation that is the problem (it being overlooked that a passenger service is planned to use a goods line). The short term solution that is least disruptive would seem to be diverting 1L20 via Stockport.

 

[Tomnick]

I had the pleasure of being your chauffeur last night. It was indeed as @LowLevel has stated - it’s booked to pass the stopper at New Mills South, which wasn’t a problem when it was ECS (and 2S38 doesn’t seem to have run for the last few months anyway). It’ll be interesting to see whether any sort of workaround is implemented tonight (I have a vested interest again) - running via Stockport is the obvious choice, dependent on a suitable path being available, but that’d be a shame as it removes a useful route refreshing opportunity via Romiley.

I suspect that the signal into the goods loop at NMS requires the outlet trap points ‘normal’ (which is quite a common arrangement). It’s certainly the case when running through there with the ECS in the ‘before times’ that the outlet signal wouldn’t be cleared until the train was clear inside the loop. The rules for running a passenger train over a goods loop require any trap points at the other end reversed before the train is admitted (running a passenger train towards a set of open trap points is very much frowned upon!), so arrangements to run over the goods loop even as a short-term solution aren’t as straightforward as they might seem.

I understand that the stopper used to run via Stockport, until two or three years ago.

 

[jfollows]

This one is slightly unusual though as it is a failed existing mitigation that is the problem (it being overlooked that a passenger service is planned to use a goods line). The short term solution that is least disruptive would seem to be diverting 1L20 via Stockport.

I wonder also if it's in part because the working timetable doesn't explicitly show a train using the goods line - the stopper just gets 22*k07 but there is nothing to indicate that the fast train does anything at all, and certainly not to use the goods loop. And it was similar when it ran ECS. In other words, the timetable shows the stopper having to stop and wait, but says absolutely nothing different about the train which is supposed to overtake it, which we now know did so by using the Up Goods Loop which it can no longer do.
So it just appears that the timetable was vague about this, and presumably local knowledge in the signal box meant that it was handled as intended until yesterday.
However it does appear that any mitigation that could have picked up this error required more information than in the timetable.

EDIT I note that the "k" abbreviation in the WTT is incorrect. It's been made up by whoever entered the data to mean "arrives 5.5 minutes earlier" and extrapolated from the "a..j" abbreviations which are documented in the WTT. Unfortunately "k" has already been taken and is supposed to mean "Advertised arrival time .5/1 minute earlier". See later post #35

There should be, instead "For differences of more than 5 minutes, a foot or column note is given" and something to indicate that the overtaking train uses the UGL, in my opinion.

 

[edwin_m]

Intrigued as to why its safe for an ECS move to use the loop but not when its carrying passengers. Its either safe to use or its not.

Things like trap points, facing points without locks and extra permissive working are considered acceptable if there are no passengers at risk of injury should an accident occur. That's not to say that rail staff are dispensable - often they will be able to see an imminent accident and go somewhere safer, but passengers wouldn't get that warning and most probably wouldn't know how to act on it in any case.

 

[Llandudno]

I had the pleasure of being your chauffeur last night. It was indeed as @LowLevel has stated - it’s booked to pass the stopper at New Mills South, which wasn’t a problem when it was ECS (and 2S38 doesn’t seem to have run for the last few months anyway). It’ll be interesting to see whether any sort of workaround is implemented tonight (I have a vested interest again) - running via Stockport is the obvious choice, dependent on a suitable path being available, but that’d be a shame as it removes a useful route refreshing opportunity via Romiley.

I suspect that the signal into the goods loop at NMS requires the outlet trap points ‘normal’ (which is quite a common arrangement). It’s certainly the case when running through there with the ECS in the ‘before times’ that the outlet signal wouldn’t be cleared until the train was clear inside the loop. The rules for running a passenger train over a goods loop require any trap points at the other end reversed before the train is admitted (running a passenger train towards a set of open trap points is very much frowned upon!), so arrangements to run over the goods loop even as a short-term solution aren’t as straightforward as they might seem.

I understand that the stopper used to run via Stockport, until two or three years ago.

Crikey, how cool is that a reply from the driver on my train last night!

Seriously though this additional late evening fast train is a boon for passengers heading towards Chesterfield and Nottingham, as the last train calls at all Hope Valley shacks and then runs via ‘the old road’ between Sheffield and Chesterfield. I am sure once Covid is behind us this train will be very well loaded especially at weekends.

If the 2241 does end up running via Stockport, surely it would make sense for the train to call there like all the other fast trains do, assuming there is sufficient running time to be in front of the Northern stopper at New Mills/Chinley?

 

[Mike99]

Could a solution be for the new 1L41 21:41 Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham operate via Stockport hence being able to get in front of the stopper across the Hope Valley; and 5L54, 21:59 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham ECS which currently runs via Stockport operate via Marple for driver route retention?

 

[edwin_m]

Could a solution be for the new 1L41 21:41 Manchester Piccadilly to Nottingham operate via Stockport hence being able to get in front of the stopper across the Hope Valley; and 5L54, 21:59 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham ECS which currently runs via Stockport operate via Marple for driver route retention?

I think that's one of the trains that takes one of several possible routes between Liverpool and Nottingham to ensure route retention for diversions. It would be more difficult to do that if it ran in service.

 

[Bungle]

Looks like it’s going via Stockport tonight.

 

[jfollows]

1L20 21:41 Manchester-Nottingham going via Stockport tonight, it has to follow 2D59 21:40 Manchester-Chester as far as Slade Lane Junction but will take the slow line from there whereas the Chester train will use the fast line.

EDIT Bungle on the ball too

 

[Llandudno]

1L20 20:41 Manchester-Nottingham going via Stockport tonight, it has to follow 2D59 20:40 Manchester-Chester as far as Slade Lane Junction but will take the slow line from there whereas the Chester train will use the fast line.

EDIT Bungle on the ball too

The issue is the 2141 from Manchester to Nottingham not 2041?

 

[jfollows]

The issue is the 2141 from Manchester to Nottingham not 2041?

I'm not on the ball! Original post corrected, thank you.

 

[Llandudno]

I'm not on the ball! Original post corrected, thank you.

It’s fine!

Anyway it looks as though the issue has been resolved if the trains runs via Stockport, shame it doesn’t stop there though?

 

[jfollows]

It’s fine!

Anyway it looks as though the issue has been resolved if the trains runs via Stockport, shame it doesn’t stop there though?

It'll probably require some timetable manipulation to make it a complete solution, tonight there were departures
2D59 21:40 platform 7 Manchester-Chester FL to Slade Lane Junction, FL to Stockport
2K14 21:43 platform 11 Manchester-Stoke FL-FL
2H06 21:44 platform 13 Manchester (ex Blackpool)-Hazel Grove SL-SL calls at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel
to which I can't see that 1L20 can be added as it stands (it followed 2D59 tonight, but went SL from Slade Lane Junction)
but with a bit of padding can probably be made to work in some way, ideally it should precede 2H06 if it can and it looks as if 2H06 was delayed by a couple of minutes by 1L20 tonight.
Fascinating how crowded the railways still are relatively late in the evening!

 

[Kite159]

Must be one of the few trains which goes via Derby but doesn't call at that station

 

[_toommm_]

Must be one of the few trains which goes via Derby but doesn't call at that station

Northern have one in each direction in the evening too as a route retention, although they do call there.

I would have thought all Nottingham EMR drivers signed to Derby anything without looking at the thread for drivers route cards.

 

[Tomnick]

Must be one of the few trains which goes via Derby but doesn't call at that station

It’s only via Derby this week because of overnight possessions on the Erewash. 1R50 (and 5M06) in the mornings and what used to be 1L20 (now 1L21 SX) in the evenings have been regular candidates for being diverted that way for years.

I would have thought all Nottingham EMR drivers signed to Derby anything without looking at the thread for drivers route cards.

Certainly not all sign Ambergate to Clay Cross, but a decent proportion of those who sign Liverpool do.