New lockdown in England, including school closures, announced by Johnson, 4/1/21

[Watershed]

Would I be right in saying that the amendments to The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020 (legislation.gov.uk) act make no difference on the exemptions for travelling?

Yes, with the notable exception of school closures, the new "lockdown" is almost identical to tier 4. There is now a gaping chasm between what the guidance advises and what the law dictates.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, with the notable exception of school closures, the new "lockdown" is almost identical to tier 4. There is now a gaping chasm between what the guidance advises and what the law dictates.

And the expiry date of the legislation (and hence the lockdown unless the legislation is subsequently amended) has been amended to 31st March.

 

[duncanp]

And it would appear from my reading of the legislation, as opposed to the guidance, that takeaway alcohol from pubs IS allowed.

The crucial part which affects the sale of takeaway alcohol from pubs is paragraph 9(a) on page 4, which reads:-

(9) In paragraph 13— (a) in sub-paragraph (1)—

(i) in paragraph (a), after “drink”, insert “(but not alcohol)”;

(ii) in paragraph (b), after “drink”, insert “(but not alcohol)”; (iii) after paragraph (b),

insert— “(c) from selling alcohol by a method of sale permitted by sub-paragraph (2)(a)

Comparing these amendments with the original regulations and applying the amendments above (in bold) gives you:-

Paragraph 9(1) does not prevent the person responsible for carrying on a restricted business, or providing a restricted service, of a kind specified in paragraph 13(6)—

(a)from selling food or drink (but not alcohol) for consumption off the premises between the hours of 05:00 and 23:00;

(b)from selling food or drink (but not alcohol) for consumption off the premises between the hours of 23:00 and 05:00 by a method of sale permitted by sub-paragraph (2).

(c) from selling alcohol by a method of sale permitted by sub-paragraph (2)(a);”;

If you then refer to Paragraph (2) (a) it reads

(2) The methods of sale permitted under this sub-paragraph are—

(a)making deliveries in response to orders received—

(i)through a website, or otherwise by online communication,

(ii)by telephone, including orders by text message, or

(iii)by post,

In plain English I think this means:-

• You can sell food and soft drinks between 05:00 and 23:00 by operating as if you were a shop. ie – people can walk in off the street and make a purchase without ordering in advance
• If you want to sell food and soft drinks between 23:00 and 05:00, orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post
• If you want to sell alcohol at any time (subject to permitted licensing hours), orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post.

Either the government is trying to discourage the sale of takeaway alcohol by pubs, without banning it altogether, or the people drafting the guidance and legislation are incompetent, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. My money is on the latter.

Boris Johnson is famously known for "not doing detail", which is a pretty damning indictment for a Prime Minister, so I doubt whether he had any involvement in any of this.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is that 10% of people who have serious symptoms though? Or those hospitalised? I really can’t believe it’s 10% of people infected, that just isn’t plausible....

My wife and I have separately got into "debates" on Facebook groups about this very subject. "Long Covid" it seems is being used by the most enthusiastic to further evidence why lockdowns are necessary, and the 1 in 1o figure has been enshrined and written into stone for them. One person I was talking too was most adamant that they have it after being tested positive months ago, the main symptoms she was having being fatigue and headaches. I said to her that actually a lot of people were suffering from similar regardless of having had the virus, and that also it wasn't uncommon for people having trouble recovering from the symptoms of all sorts of virial infections. It was then that she said that she didn't have any symptoms, the first she knew about it was when she had a random test. I have to admit that I was rather confused by this, covid is the illness as a result of infection from the SARS-CoV-2 virus, so if she didn't have the illness how could she have the after-effects? Of course this one fell on stony ground!

Better still was my wife's recent "debates", with some people on a local group talking about people ending up in ICUs with "Long Covid" and even people having limbs "drop off" (seriously, this was what someone actually wrote!). Reading through some of the comments "Long Covid" has taken on a Medieval appearance, its probably only a matter of time before witches are blamed and leeches used as cures. Seriously though, it does seem to have become the Bogyman of the pandemic, something the parents (experts) can use to scare the children (public) into staying at home in bed.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes I remember being stuck in traffic for 45 minutes last year when a whole area was gridlocked by cars queuing for (their Sunday lunch) at a drive-thru.

I suppose I can look forward to a repeat of that some time soon.

Our local McDonald's Drive Thru queue has been routinely jamming up the nearby roundabout ever since it reopened in May/June.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Really disappointed to see that McDonald are to close their non-drive through service as of tonight. As someone still expected to be out there during this and working normally, this was one of a tiny number of places open to get breakfast food when on an early shift.

While this still doesn't help those who don't drive, one slight difference between Lockdown 1.0 and this lockdown is that Click, Park, Collect/Click & Serve is still available at the restaurants that offer it, so queueing at the drive-through isn't necessary at these restaurants. It's a shame that they can't offer a similar service to walk-up customers.

 

[island]

And it would appear from my reading of the legislation, as opposed to the guidance, that takeaway alcohol from pubs IS allowed.

The crucial part which affects the sale of takeaway alcohol from pubs is paragraph 9(a) on page 4, which reads:-



Comparing these amendments with the original regulations and applying the amendments above (in bold) gives you:-



If you then refer to Paragraph (2) (a) it reads



In plain English I think this means:-

• You can sell food and soft drinks between 05:00 and 23:00 by operating as if you were a shop. ie – people can walk in off the street and make a purchase without ordering in advance
• If you want to sell food and soft drinks between 23:00 and 05:00, orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post
• If you want to sell alcohol at any time (subject to permitted licensing hours), orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post.

Either the government is trying to discourage the sale of takeaway alcohol by pubs, without banning it altogether, or the people drafting the guidance and legislation are incompetent, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. My money is on the latter.

Boris Johnson is famously known for "not doing detail", which is a pretty damning indictment for a Prime Minister, so I doubt whether he had any involvement in any of this.

2 (a) states that the alcohol must be delivered. It does not permit click & collect; that is 2 (b) “providing food or drink to a purchaser who collects the food or drink that has been pre-ordered by a means mentioned in paragraph (a), provided the purchaser does not enter inside the premises to do so”

So your first bullet point is correct, your second has missed drive-thru and delivery as permitted options, and your third is wrong.

 

[philosopher]

In plain English I think this means:-

• You can sell food and soft drinks between 05:00 and 23:00 by operating as if you were a shop. ie – people can walk in off the street and make a purchase without ordering in advance
• If you want to sell food and soft drinks between 23:00 and 05:00, orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post
• If you want to sell alcohol at any time (subject to permitted licensing hours), orders must be made via click & collect, telephone or post.

Either the government is trying to discourage the sale of takeaway alcohol by pubs, without banning it altogether, or the people drafting the guidance and legislation are incompetent, with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. My money is on the latter.

Boris Johnson is famously known for "not doing detail", which is a pretty damning indictment for a Prime Minister, so I doubt whether he had any involvement in any of this.

What the government probably want to avoid is people congregating just outside pubs with their takeaway pints.

 

[35B]

McDonald's is a canny operator and I am sure that these kinds of decisions will have been made at a high level. Brand and perception is everything for a company such as them and they will not want to do anything that is seen to be putting their customers in danger. Hence the move to restrict things to drive thru (even though this excludes a lot of customers).

There is also the possibility it is cheaper for them to operate that way, or other such commercial considerations.

It may also be a way of limiting demand to what a particular density of kitchen staffing can support.

 

[Ianno87]

While this still doesn't help those who don't drive, one slight difference between Lockdown 1.0 and this lockdown is that Click, Park, Collect/Click & Serve is still available at the restaurants that offer it, so queueing at the drive-through isn't necessary at these restaurants. It's a shame that they can't offer a similar service to walk-up customers.

Can you not order it on your phone whilst stood outside?

 

[Mojo]

Can you not order it on your phone whilst stood outside?

Nope. McDonalds also quite strictly do not allow any vehicles that are not mechanically propelled vehicles through their drive through, or for click and serve. Not very helpful when you’re at work.

 

[Domh245]

That study quotes two other studies, which both quote figures from the Zoe app for people suffering symptoms consistent with Covid more than 4 weeks after the primary infection. The Zoe app is largely tracking symptomatic cases. So what we have is 10% of people who were symptomatic (which is maybe 20% of cases) still don't feel quite right 4 weeks later. An even smaller number of these are still suffering effects 12 weeks later. In a _very_ small number of cases these effects are genuinely debilitating.

To expand on this, it's important to pay attention to what the symptoms logged as "long covid" are in these 10% of cases. Looking at one paper the most commonly reported symptoms are headaches and fatigue. The nastier symptoms (eg Diarrhoea and Delirium) were in about 20% of the long covid cases studied

 

[py_megapixel]

Nope. McDonalds also quite strictly do not allow any vehicles that are not mechanically propelled vehicles through their drive through, or for click and serve. Not very helpful when you’re at work.

I guess they simply don't want the custom of people who don't own a car then... I assume the rule you have mentioned there excludes bicycles?

I wonder how many people who do own a car but would ordinarily have gone on their bike or by foot are now using their car to go to McDonald's...

 

[island]

McDonald’s will not serve to bicycle riders in Drive-Thru.

 

[py_megapixel]

McDonald’s will not serve to bicycle riders in Drive-Thru.

Which, if they're closing the walk-in section, is ludicrous.

 

[kristiang85]

I read somewhere that Britain's covid response bill is now at £300bn (and I'm not sure if that includes the collateral/indirect costs, but I'm assuming it doesn't).

Remember when Boris promised us the £350m a week for the NHS on the side of his bus? Well the covid cost is equivalent to 857 weeks at that rate, or 16 and a half years.

The longterm damage of this response is absolutely tragic.

 

[Bantamzen]

I read somewhere that Britain's covid response bill is now at £300bn (and I'm not sure if that includes the collateral/indirect costs, but I'm assuming it doesn't).

Remember when Boris promised us the £350m a week for the NHS on the side of his bus? Well the covid cost is equivalent to 857 weeks at that rate, or 16 and a half years.

The longterm damage of this response is absolutely tragic.

Oh the final bill will be far more than that. Just wait for the next budget or three to see what the final cost really be.

 

[kristiang85]

Oh the final bill will be far more than that. Just wait for the next budget or three to see what the final cost really be.

Well yes indeed. And as I said, I'm not sure that includes the collateral costs on the economy. Although hopefully people will have a bit of a spending spree once this is all over. But that won't help businesses that have already gone under....

 

[Mojo]

Which, if they're closing the walk-in section, is ludicrous.

I agree. They could quite easily close the drive through and tell people to park outside and walk up but for whatever reason they were always quite reluctant to.

It always used to be the case that, in shops that were open 24 hr, it was only ever the drive through that was open overnight, I think this changed about 5 or 6 years ago to become the exception rather than the rule and the main restaurant areas typically did start opening overnight. I was always curious about local authorities granting a license given the other duties they have under various acts to reduce car usage and manage the road network more efficiently.

 

[roversfan2001]

At risk of veering further off-topic; the McDonald's opposite Ewood Park would close their drive-thru and operate a 'walk-thru' for football fans for games with a big crowd - granted that hasn't happened very often in the past few years

 

[WelshBluebird]

What the government probably want to avoid is people congregating just outside pubs with their takeaway pints.

Exactly this.
Whilst it sucks for businesses who were being sensible, the blame should be laid at businesses and customers who weren't being sensible.
The whole idea of takeaway drinks was to buy drinks and you know, take them away. Not for the outside area of the premises to be transformed into an outdoor bar as happened in some places.

 

[py_megapixel]

I agree. They could quite easily close the drive through and tell people to park outside and walk up but for whatever reason they were always quite reluctant to.

It always used to be the case that, in shops that were open 24 hr, it was only ever the drive through that was open overnight, I think this changed about 5 or 6 years ago to become the exception rather than the rule and the main restaurant areas typically did start opening overnight. I was always curious about local authorities granting a license given the other duties they have under various acts to reduce car usage and manage the road network more efficiently.

I doubt they actually want to open the indoor area for fear of the virus spreading between people queuing, but they could probably convert the drive through windows and vehicle queuing area into a appropriately social-distanced queuing area for people on foot by means of some decals and possibly some traffic cones or temporary fencing.

All of the drive through McDonalds I know either have, or are located on the site of a shopping centre which has, a good-sized car park, and I'm not sure anybody is buying enough from McDonalds that they couldn't just park in the car park and stand in the queue like everyone else.

 

[WelshBluebird]

On the McDonalds front, and probably other similar places, it is just so much easier for them to say that they are doing drive through only.
Reduces any arguments with customers about people being able to collect orders from the app but not order in person and on the whole is a much easier message to convey to customers.

No one is saying that they don't believe covid-19

But some people are saying that. Maybe not in this thread. But some people are saying it. And even on this forum some people are starting to dive into the conspiracy theory of some / most cases of it actually are just flu which just is not true and is the start of the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories about the whole thing being fake.

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly this.
Whilst it sucks for businesses who were being sensible, the blame should be laid at businesses and customers who weren't being sensible.
The whole idea of takeaway drinks was to buy drinks and you know, take them home. Not for the outside area of the premises to be transformed into an outdoor bar as happened in some places.

Yep that's the ticket, blame, blame, blame. Ignore the fact that even if every business & their customers were "sensible", the virus would still spread. Honestly I'm tired of this almost year old narrative that the spread is someone else's fault. Its not helpful, and will not lead to the solution if there actually is one, after all viruses have been around for hundreds of millions of years. Just saying like...

 

[island]

Would I be right in saying that the amendments to The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020 (legislation.gov.uk) act make no difference on the exemptions for travelling?

There are a number of changes to the reasonable excuses for leaving your home, such as the removal of the right to leave home for recreation in a public outdoor space.

There are no changes in the legislation regarding whether you can drive somewhere or use public transport; if you have a reasonable excuse to leave home, and you reasonably need to travel to do whatever it is you are doing, then you can travel.

 

[duncanp]

2 (a) states that the alcohol must be delivered. It does not permit click & collect; that is 2 (b) “providing food or drink to a purchaser who collects the food or drink that has been pre-ordered by a means mentioned in paragraph (a), provided the purchaser does not enter inside the premises to do so”

So your first bullet point is correct, your second has missed drive-thru and delivery as permitted options, and your third is wrong.

I think my bullet points could perhaps have been worded better and I did miss out paragraphs 2(b) and 2(c).

As far as I can see, paragraph 2(b) does permit click and collect, as it explicitly mentions the word collect.

providing food or drink to a purchaser who collects the food or drink that has been pre-ordered by a means mentioned in paragraph (a), provided the purchaser does not enter inside the premises to do so

What I think the government are really saying is that walk up sales of alcohol from a pub are not allowed. It has to be ordered in advance by one of the methods specified. This is to avoid people buying takeaway alcohol, consuming in a public place nearby, and then coming back for more.

The requirement not to enter the premises or leave a vehicle whilst collecting avoids the suspicion that people are sneaking into the pub for a quick pint or two.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yep that's the ticket, blame, blame, blame. Ignore the fact that even if every business & their customers were "sensible", the virus would still spread. Honestly I'm tired of this almost year old narrative that the spread is someone else's fault. Its not helpful, and will not lead to the solution if there actually is one, after all viruses have been around for hundreds of millions of years. Just saying like...

But that IS the exact reason why the guidance (and maybe the law - though I really can't be bothered to try to decipher legalise right now) has changed compared to last time around. Of course the virus would still spread - I haven't claimed otherwise. But the whole point of places offering takeaway drinks, as I said, was for people to take them away. The clue is in the name.

 

[Mojo]

There are a number of changes to the reasonable excuses for leaving your home, such as the removal of the right to leave home for recreation in a public outdoor space.

It is interesting based upon this that the grounds of attractions run by organisations like English Heritage, and places like Kew Gardens, are still open. I suppose you can go for a walk around them but seems more like exercise than recreation.

 

[Bantamzen]

But that IS the exact reason why the guidance (and maybe the law - though I really can't be bothered to try to decipher legalise right now) has changed compared to last time around. Of course the virus would still spread - I haven't claimed otherwise. But the whole point of places offering takeaway drinks, as I said, was for people to take them away. The clue is in the name.

No it isn't the exact reason, it isn't even close. The constant flip-flopping of guidance / law changes shows that neither the government nor those advising them don't know just how & where the virus is actually spreading. Well actually no, they do know but don't want the fallout and implications of admitting it so they use the blame culture they have cultivated to justify trying anything else. The sale or no sale of takeout beer from the tiny percentage of pubs that were even selling it in the height of the summer will have practically zero effect on spread.

 

[takno]

But some people are saying that. Maybe not in this thread. But some people are saying it. And even on this forum some people are starting to dive into the conspiracy theory of some / most cases of it actually are just flu which just is not true and is the start of the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories about the whole thing being fake.

So essentially a few people have a reasonably intelligent discussion on the forum about whether the drop in flu numbers implies some level of misdiagnosis. One of them may have believed before the discussion that the numbers involved were particularly significant. It's not denialism, it's asking perfectly sensible questions and getting largely intelligent responses.

This desperation to project any questioning of the rather shaky official line as "denialism" is itself unwholesome, desperate and pretty viciously anti-science.