New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[Bald Rick]

I would agree some do, but that’s a performance management issue, rather than an argument against them being there in the first place. Many are excellent in my experience. On the other hand I’ve never seen a single OnTrak person doing anything useful. What are they even there for? They only seem to be a “thing” in the London area.

There probably is an argument that bringing people out of ticket offices will naturally make them more proactive/visible. Ticket offices do themselves no favours. My last use of one resulted in me being told there’s no such thing as a priv ticket … I’ve moved to using the RST online portal since.

I‘m assuming OnTrak is a supplier of station support staff, other suppliers are used elsewhere. No doubt some of them are less than useful, but as you say, that is a performance management issue. Personally I’ve seen several of them being very helpful, including tonight at St Pancras where one of them came to me specifically (as I was stood in an unusual place) to check if I needed help and pointed me the way. As it happens I was on the phone in the last place I can get signal before going ‘downstairs’ so wasn’t a confused passenger, but it was nice to be offered help all the same!

Back to the ticket office issue. AIUI Gatwick doesn’t have a ticket office now. But it does have people out on the concourse helping passengers more directly. If it can be done there (and done without a dispute from the RMT) then it can be done almost anywhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

I'd be surprised if it wasn't put out to a vote though.

Same here. RMT are in a bit of a spot here, which I’m afraid they put themselves in.

 

[Frankfurt]

I suppose what a large part of the public side of this deal is, which staff do you want to lose. The offer is clear that to be delivered there has to be savings, and the only saving available from TOCs is staff, so who do you get rid of?

Why does there have to be savings? Devolved administrations have settled disputes and pay deals without slashing workers terms and conditions. It's a political choice.

Anyhow the offers and everything I've seen put out by the RDG are both lazy and vague to say the least (as well as unacceptable to the workforce) - I haven't seen any costings alongside as to what savings would be made, if any?

 

[Scott1]

Why does there have to be savings? Devolved administrations have settled disputes and pay deals without slashing workers terms and conditions. It's a political choice.

It is indeed, and both RDG and the minister for transport have said that they must be savings.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why does there have to be savings? Devolved administrations have settled disputes and pay deals without slashing workers terms and conditions. It's a political choice.

And at least one of those devolved administrations is in a very tricky financial position, partly as a result of doing so.

 

[43066]

I‘m assuming OnTrak is a supplier of station support staff, other suppliers are used elsewhere. No doubt some of them are less than useful, but as you say, that is a performance management issue. Personally I’ve seen several of them being very helpful, including tonight at St Pancras where one of them came to me specifically (as I was stood in an unusual place) to check if I needed help and pointed me the way. As it happens I was on the phone in the last place I can get signal before going ‘downstairs’ so wasn’t a confused passenger, but it was nice to be offered help all the same!

Well I’m a believer in the adage “pay peanuts, get monkeys” so I’d rather not see station staffing hollowed out to the zero hours contract/minimum wage lowest common denominator.

Interesting you mention St. Pancras. I can’t speak for downstairs but upstairs there have been issues such as putting disabled passengers onto the wrong trains, not knowing how to use ramps, stand up rows with passengers etc. none of these have occurred with the guys in purple.

At my last depot it was even worse, on one occasion just before I left several contractors turned up to train as dispatchers, and were promptly dismissed within a few days when they couldn’t follow basic instructions. A couple were caught texting while dispatching, one came in to work pie eyed.

That’s not to say these issues won’t sometimes happen with permanent staff, but that’s less likely than with people who are only there because they’re desperate for cash, or (worse) because the job centre has ordered them to attend, and they really just want to get sacked so they they can sign on again etc.

Back to the ticket office issue. AIUI Gatwick doesn’t have a ticket office now. But it does have people out on the concourse helping passengers more directly. If it can be done there (and done without a dispute from the RMT) then it can be done almost anywhere.

Last time I went through there (in the autumn) it was a building site! I gather it’s finished now?

Same here. RMT are in a bit of a spot here, which I’m afraid they put themselves in.

I honestly don’t see that they’ve had much choice. The current “offer” is (marginally) better than the last, so their efforts thus far certainly haven’t been for nought.

 

[800001]

So are they putting it to a vote with a recommended rejection, or outright rejecting it?

The RMT National Executive Committee is giving the matter further consideration, more details to follow next week.

I’m be shocked if they did not put it to a vote.

At least then, if it is rejected they can say their members voted no.

 

[Annetts key]

There is no requirement for the RMT NEC to put it out to a vote if they decide that the improvement(s) are not significantly better.

 

[Facing Back]

There is no requirement for the RMT NEC to put it out to a vote if they decide that the improvement(s) are not significantly better.

Yes, so we are told.

Do you think that they will put it to a vote?

 

[Annetts key]

I don't think I've found a situation where station staff have been able to provide more information than online sources; certainly not that I can recall in recent memory and since various open data sites, plus Journey check etc became available.

It depends on who you ask. Certainly I’ve had a number of occasions where the staff I asked knew what was going on, meanwhile, all the ‘modern’ information systems were still saying/indicating/showing obsolete and hence incorrect information.

They can ask but they won't get; it's a fallacy.

Just like most of so called economic systems of predicting the future. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth. But growth causes various problems that eventually end up in a crash.
And, where living costs are going up, if you don’t as an organisation pay your staff enough money, some will go and find better paying jobs. It may start as a trickle, but will get worse over time. If the organisation does not deal with this, it may cause a commercial company to fail. With state organisations, the failure mode may be more complex, but eventually it will cause political problems for the government.

Are you suggesting the railways are more dangerous now than previously and are becoming less safe?

Why do you think we have the MOT system in this country?
Would you travel on an airplane if there were not very high standards of maintenance?
Would you choose an airline if their reliability was poor?
How much risk would you be willing to take?
It all comes down to risk management and how much money is spent on maintenance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

Yes, so we are told.

Do you think that they will put it to a vote?

No idea…

 

[thelongestroad]

Well I’m a believer in the adage “pay peanuts, get monkeys” so I’d rather not see station staffing hollowed out to the zero hours contract/minimum wage lowest common denominator.

Interesting you mention St. Pancras. I can’t speak for downstairs but upstairs there have been issues such as putting disabled passengers onto the wrong trains, not knowing how to use ramps, stand up rows with passengers etc. none of these have occurred with the guys in purple.

At my last depot it was even worse, on one occasion just before I left several contractors turned up to train as dispatchers, and were promptly dismissed within a few days when they couldn’t follow basic instructions. A couple were caught texting while dispatching, one came in to work pie eyed.

That’s not to say these issues won’t sometimes happen with permanent staff, but that’s less likely than with people who are only there because they’re desperate for cash, or (worse) because the job centre has ordered them to attend, and they really just want to get sacked so they they can sign on again etc.



Last time I went through there (in the autumn) it was a building site! I gather it’s finished now?



I honestly don’t see that they’ve had much choice. The current “offer” is (marginally) better than the last, so their efforts thus far certainly haven’t been for nought.

At Gatwick there seem to be traditional ticket office machines that they wheel out- I think!

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, so we are told.

Do you think that they will put it to a vote?

If they put it to a vote, need to make the full offer available to read, not the selective highlights that was in the initial post of the thread.

It sounds complicated, but don't treat the members as so stupid that they can't have the details, on assumption they wouldn't be able to make own mind up after seeing exactly what is offered.

 

[TomG]

Better than the previous offer. And the RMT members haven't exactly gained anything from the strikes. Those who striked lost pay.

Its also important to remember that the government does not have a bottomless pit of money, alas, we are in recession and, more critically, 'Inflation-Busting' wages for rail workers, along with other workers in the public sector, would increase inflation further.

I was also sent this on line, relating to ASLEF. It made for an interesting read.

"Your Members Have Had Massive Real Pay Increases"

As ASLEF yesterday announced yet another round of strikes, all the while Britain's railways continue to crumble, their union boss has met the same fate on

order-order.com

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Indeed. Those earning up to £30k will get a minimum 10% increase and those on the lowest wage will get up to 13% increase.

As it should be. People at the bottom end are most likely the ones restorting to food banks so they can afford hot water once a week.

Business Class 1 costs next to nothing, some insurers even give it to you for free. It's a non issue.

The one time I added occasional buisness use to my car, the premium went down! (Needed to drive between two places of work less then 1 mile apart to carry a computer)

A lot of ticket offices are not of low productivity.

They should remain open. There would be a consultation, hopefully not run by idiots.

They thought they could do a Thatcher and have a big win against the unions

They still do. The whole point of dragging out the rail strikes is to build support for the minium service level bill. As several people have pointed out, the strikes have cost the taxpayer more in lost revenue then it would to settle.

Including education (which I'm in) as part of a bill that is advertised be about minium service for safety ??? Really ??? Setting minium service levels will end effective stikes. Education might be able to get away with a marking boycott. I haven't read the bill.

Government introduces laws to mitigate the disruption of strikes on the public

New laws will allow government to set minimum levels of service which must be met during strikes to ensure the safety of the public and their access to public services.

www.gov.uk

They'll decide/debate over the weekend and say next week.

Do you think that they will put it to a vote?

If it was my union I would be telling my committee that it must go to a members vote. Besides being democratic, a strong reject vote sends a clear message.

 

[jon0844]

I don't get how we can be told that post-Brexit we're becoming a high wage economy, and at the same time being told there's no money and we can't expect pay to keep up with inflation or it will just make inflation worse (oh and then say inflation is going to be half or even less than half of last year).

It's almost like they just say whatever suits their argument at that exact moment in time.

I feel with this new offer, and the admission that it have been best to settle earlier, the RMT does now have the upper hand as it seems like all the big plans the Government had for the railway won't be a priority before the next election.

So just pay people to delay the issue until the next party comes in. That could mean a vote, rejection and some further tweaking.

When support for strikers didn't go down over Christmas, any ideas to dig in Thatcher style was clearly doomed to fail.

Most Tory MPs seem to be of the opinion they're done for and to regroup (and I hear that besides the ERG there are many other breakaway groups that are mostly planning for getting back into power, not staying in) but Rishi seems to believe he had a chance and unions may be able to capitalise on that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't get how we can be told that post-Brexit we're becoming a high wage economy, and at the same time being told there's no money and we can't expect pay to keep up with inflation or it will just make inflation worse (oh and then say inflation is going to be half or even less than half of last year).

Brexit is lies, it actually severely damaged the economy and continues to do so. The rest then makes more sense.

 

[jon0844]

Brexit is lies, it actually severely damaged the economy and continues to do so. The rest then makes more sense.

For sure, but how do the MPs say what they say with a straight face? (rhetorical question ovbs).

 

[43066]

Better than the previous offer. And the RMT members haven't exactly gained anything from the strikes. Those who striked lost pay.

You’ve rather contradicted yourself there, as you acknowledge this offer is better. Also focussing on pay lost through strikes (which is short term and can be easily made up through overtime) ignores the effect of suffering long term real terms pay cuts which is what the unions want to fight against - many parts of the public sector earn 20% or more less than they did a decade ago.

Its also important to remember that the government does not have a bottomless pit of money, alas, we are in recession and, more critically, 'Inflation-Busting' wages for rail workers, along with other workers in the public sector, would increase inflation further.

I was also sent this on line, relating to ASLEF. It made for an interesting read.

The dogma around “inflation busting rises” has been thoroughly debunked - the causes of the current high inflation are well known and are nothing to do with public sector pay rises. It overlooks the fact that much of the public sector has suffered a large real terms pay cut, and (as we know from the devolved nations) the disputes could be settled for less than the rate of inflation. So in other words, even if a “pay rise” of 6%ish is awarded to a group of workers, they’re still getting cheaper in real terms.

As for the ASLEF interview, the point is made at the start: those pay rises have been secured for selling Ts and Cs eg accepting DOO and increasing productivity. Train driver wages have been stagnant for the last four years, but this is completely ignored by the interviewer. This kind of thing is designed to trigger Daily Mail types who find it irritating that train drivers earn a good wage, because lots of them don’t have a degree, and “it’s just pressing a button innit”.

I don't get how we can be told that post-Brexit we're becoming a high wage economy, and at the same time being told there's no money and we can't expect pay to keep up with inflation or it will just make inflation worse (oh and then say inflation is going to be half or even less than half of last year).

It's almost like they just say whatever suits their argument at that exact moment in time.

You’ve noticed that too !

“High wage economy” but that apparently only applies to the right sort of people. If the private sector get pay rises it’s fine, and it’s fine for the government to give inflation matching increases to pensioners/benefits. But if public sector workers gets a rise, even if less than the rate of inflation, it’s inflationary and unaffordable.

And of course it suits the government to paint the current issues as being the fault of trade unions, rather taking the focus off who has been running the show for over a decade!

 

[Bertie the bus]

The RMT are not recommending that offer to their members.

If they don’t it could be an absolute PR disaster for them. Following the last offer all the coverage was how the government had torpedoed the talks by putting in a DOO clause at the 11th hour when an agreement was close. The government then removes the DOO clause and slightly improves the offer. To many that would look like an offer that could and should be accepted and rather than all the comments at the time about how stupid the government were for bringing DOO into the dispute it would look like a clever move and a trap the RMT has blindly stumbled into.

 

[yorkie]

It depends on who you ask. Certainly I’ve had a number of occasions where the staff I asked knew what was going on, meanwhile, all the ‘modern’ information systems were still saying/indicating/showing obsolete and hence incorrect information.

Why was it not possible to announce the correct information in that case?

Just like most of so called economic systems of predicting the future. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth. But growth causes various problems that eventually end up in a crash.
And, where living costs are going up, if you don’t as an organisation pay your staff enough money, some will go and find better paying jobs. It may start as a trickle, but will get worse over time. If the organisation does not deal with this, it may cause a commercial company to fail. With state organisations, the failure mode may be more complex, but eventually it will cause political problems for the government.

Ok clearly your grievances go well beyond this issue; I suggest you create a new thread and feel free to propose a solution there.

Why do you think we have the MOT system in this country?
Would you travel on an airplane if there were not very high standards of maintenance?
Would you choose an airline if their reliability was poor?
How much risk would you be willing to take?
It all comes down to risk management and how much money is spent on maintenance.

You have no answer and instead resort to a false equivalence fallacy argument on completely different topics. There is clearly no point continuing the debate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

If they don’t it could be an absolute PR disaster for them. Following the last offer all the coverage was how the government had torpedoed the talks by putting in a DOO clause at the 11th hour when an agreement was close. The government then removes the DOO clause and slightly improves the offer. To many that would look like an offer that could and should be accepted and rather than all the comments at the time about how stupid the government were for bringing DOO into the dispute it would look like a clever move and a trap the RMT has blindly stumbled into.

I agree but I thought the RMT didn't care what the public thought? If so they won't be particularly bothered if this gets them bad PR.

 

[High Dyke]

Apologies if this has already been posted. This is the circular sent to affected RMT members.

TO ALL TRAIN OPERATING COMPANY GENERAL GRADES MEMBERS (excluding Drivers)

Dear Colleague,

DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES

RMT has today received a set of revised proposals from the Rail Delivery Group, which acts on behalf of the 14 Train Operating Companies in our current dispute over Jobs, Conditions and Pay.

The proposals include detailed documentation covering a range of issues that affect all of our grade groups at these companies and will require serious and careful consideration. The proposals on pay and job security are directly conditional on cost savings and alterations to contractual terms, entitlements, and working practices. RMT has not agreed to this set of proposals or any of the elements within them.

Your National Executive Committee will be considering the matter this afternoon and I will write to you again directly after the NEC has made a decision and given me instructions.

The main elements of the proposals are as follows:

· Station Ticket Offices: All to be closed or “re-purposed”, subject to the statutory public consultation process, which RMT does not support.

· Creation of a new Multi-Skilled Station Grade: station retailing and other grades to be aligned and migrated to new grading and competence structure with some salary protections. There will be a new salary structure for new entrants.

· On-Board Train Crew Roles: the proposal to introduce Driver Only Operation has been withdrawn. However, companies have stated they could separately make proposals on train crewing through their own companies, separate to this dispute.

· Train Crew Codes of Practice: the companies have devised detailed codes of practice covering training, diagramming and rostering to be implemented in pursuit of efficiency.

· 7-Day Railway: a Sunday Commitment Protocol is proposed which will make Sunday working mandatory when rostered, if cover cannot be provided.

· Catering: all catering services to be reviewed on the basis of affordability and value for the companies.

· Fleet Engineering: proposed implementation of new technology and process.

· Training and Briefing: new practices and technology for safety critical and other training.

· Terms & Conditions: there are various other proposals on contractual terms and entitlements, including:-

o Flexible Working Contracts for new starters
o New Technology / Equipment to be adopted without additional payment
o Station Groups - with staff covering a cluster of stations rather than a home station
o Attendance Management - industry-wide principles based on ACAS guidelines
o Stood Off Arrangements to be reviewed
o Annual Leave Entitlements - new industry-wide entitlements; all staff to have Christmas Day and Boxing Day deducted from general entitlement
o Sick Pay to be redefined with more stages but with existing entitlement for those with 5+ years service
o Company Health Appointments / Medicals etc will normally be during shift working time
o Review of former BR Conditions of Service: a joint review of those retained conditions, to align with modern working practices

· Voluntary Severance Scheme: a Voluntary Severance Scheme which will see circa 800 jobs removed, in addition to approximately 800 already removed from the TOCs on the previous round of VSS.

It is a condition of the proposals (with the exception of ticket office closures) that all of the above must be accepted and implemented in order for the following to be offered:

Job Security: No compulsory redundancies before 31st December 2024

Pay:
o A 5% increase or £1750, whichever is the greater, effective from the respective 2022 anniversary date

o A 4% increase, effective from the respective 2023 anniversary date
Yours sincerely,

Image

Michael Lynch
General Secretary

 

[LAX54]

you are entitled to SSP I meant like as in I get full pay for 6 months then half for 6 month but always felt they were gonna try change that as this is the only job I’ve ever had that level of sick pay not use to it

In BR days it was the 1st 3 days no pay at all, then you were entitled to sick pay after the 3rd day, however when you became 'established staff' after 10 years, you got sick pay from day 1. It was to stop people from just throwing a 'sickie' to have a day or two off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In BR days it was the 1st 3 days no pay at all, then you were entitled to sick pay after the 3rd day, however when you became 'established staff' after 10 years, you got sick pay from day 1. It was to stop people from just throwing a 'sickie' to have a day or two off.

The problem with that approach is that it causes sick people to come into work who then make other people sick. Thus sick pay from day one and careful monitoring of who is taking the mick is a better approach.

 

[12LDA28C]

So are they putting it to a vote with a recommended rejection, or outright rejecting it?

Yes, but the vote's next week - would the results be announced by the Friday or the week after?

As I understand it, the Union is not allowed to recommend rejection of the deal and can only adopt a neutral position or recommend to accept.

The strong rumour is that the RMT will indeed put the deal out to its members for voting but is taking the neutral position.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==


If we assume voting papers might be sent out at the end of next week at the earliest and then a 14-day voting period, even if it's rejected I would not expect any more strikes to be announced until the middle of February which would give potential strike dates of end of February / early March. Of course this vote is for TOC staff and is separate to the NR dispute so NR staff could still announce further action in the meantime.

 

[Goldfish62]

And at least one of those devolved administrations is in a very tricky financial position, partly as a result of doing so.

Well yes, but then we will of course never find out what cuts have to be made to other public services as a result.

 

[KM1991]

As I understand it, the Union is not allowed to recommend rejection of the deal and can only adopt a neutral position or recommend to accept.

The strong rumour is that the RMT will indeed put the deal out to its members for voting but is adopting the neutral position.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

I can see them staying neutral if it went to a vote.

Why do you say they are not allowed to recommend rejecting it? What is that based on? A gentlemen’s agreement for this deal in particular?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Well yes, but then we will of course never find out what cuts have to be made to other public services as a result.

Are they? I don't have hard numbers but the TfW trains I see are getting busier. Poor service from Avanti and higher fuel prices are could be part of the reason.


TfW are checking tickets at Bangor. We've had revenue protection people and police at the platforms. I've never seen this before in North Wales. The guards seem to be coming through the carrages more often too.

It used to be common for me to get all the way to Chester or Crewe and never be asked to show a ticket. None of the stations before Chester have barriers. I'm sure a lot of people had gotten used to rarely being asked to pay.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I understand it, the Union is not allowed to recommend rejection of the deal and can only adopt a neutral position or recommend to accept.

The union can recommend what it likes. RMT recommended rejection of the NR deal Last time it was offered.

I’d expect any referendum to be open much longer than the last one was for NR. I’d also expect strike dates to be announced concurrently.

 

[Goldfish62]

Are they? I don't have hard numbers but the TfW trains I see are getting busier. Poor service from Avanti and higher fuel prices are could be part of the reason.


TfW are checking tickets at Bangor. We've had revenue protection people and police at the platforms. I've never seen this before. Not in North Wales. The guards seem to be coming through the carrages more often too.

It used to be common for me to get all the way to Chester and never be asked to show a ticket.

Are they what?

Are you actually replying to the right post?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Are they what?

Are you actually replying to the right post?

Is the Welsh govt. diverting funds to pay for the increase in worker's pay? I'm not sure.

It looks to me like they are trying to increase revenue which may make up the difference.

If they hadn't settled we'd have more strikes which would be an overall loss to the economy. Sadly only on the ASLEF strike days since Network Rail is not part of any agreement the Welsh goverment can make.

 

[12LDA28C]

The union can recommend what it likes. RMT recommended rejection of the NR deal Last time it was offered.

I’d expect any referendum to be open much longer than the last one was for NR. I’d also expect strike dates to be announced concurrently.

I've been told a 14-day ballot period by an RMT rep. Your information may differ.