New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[Bletchleyite]

I would be surprised if that happened as that would blur the line between retail and operations which have traditionally (at least since privatisation) been quite separate departments.

Although of course many years ago under BR, a stationmaster (or later Senior Railman / Chargeman etc) could sell tickets, sweep the platforms, operate a ground frame, couple/uncouple locos and undertake any other duties as required!

Merseyrail small station staff are basically "mini station masters", they do everything near enough. They even used to go out when known-busy trains arrived and collect tickets, that only stopped when Penalty Fares started because you can't really have them not in the booking office where there isn't a TVM.

One thing I don't really get is why more places aren't set up for the booking office to also staff the gateline - it could be easily done at Bletchley for one - and is at some stations e.g. Slough on the "offside". I guess if all offices are closed the "inclusivity" issue solved in London by way of Freedom Passes will be solved by them having a handheld ticket machine but not shouting about it much.

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The big question here might be whether members in the guard grade, who will likely be very much aware that their strike action has done the vast majority of the heavy lifting here, will consider that their aspect of the deal is worth settling for, and if so whether they are willing to continue taking action to support the other grades on their union's say so. It's a complicated dynamic!

It really doesn't help that guards and booking office staff are under the same strike, to be honest, as the issues are quite different.

 

[12LDA28C]

Station staff at many national rail locations are already multi faceted and perform a range of roles including dispatching trains, assisting passengers and undertaking cleaning duties.

Station (platform) staff yes. Not ticket office staff AFAIK, at least certainly not at larger stations.

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One thing I don't really get is why more places aren't set up for the booking office to also staff the gateline

Indeed, this would seem to be logical, and the staff would still be part of the retail department.

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Merseyrail small station staff are basically "mini station masters", they do everything near enough. They even used to go out when known-busy trains arrived and collect tickets, that only stopped when Penalty Fares started because you can't really have them not in the booking office where there isn't a TVM.

Not dispatching trains though surely, that would be down to the guard.

 

[Fred26]

Which is why once the pay deal has been sorted, the various changes to Ts & Cs will be devolved to each individual TOC to sort out.

If that was the case there would be no need to lump them in with a pay deal.
As with DOO, that is now off the table and has been given to the TOCs to deal with.

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I would be surprised if that happened as that would blur the line between retail and operations which have traditionally (at least since privatisation) been quite separate departments.

Although of course many years ago under BR, a stationmaster (or later Senior Railman / Chargeman etc) could sell tickets, sweep the platforms, operate a ground frame, couple/uncouple locos and undertake any other duties as required!

At GTR GN, all station staff are retail.

 

[Philip]

The more I think about it the more I can see how this will seem like a pretty poor offer for ticket office staff, as I gather they generally don’t do any of the general station work such as cleaning(?)

Your typical platform staff will do cleaning including toilets etc. and of course work much more extreme shifts than ticket office opening hours, including nights at many locations, so that’s a likely indication of what they may be expected to do going forward.

The outstation ticket office staff do clean and look after their stations and I don't think you could force staff not currently working nights to start working them, without completely re-writing their contracts - besides I don't think there are many stations with dispatch staff who work nights.

 

[Scott1]

Station (platform) staff yes. Not ticket office staff AFAIK, at least certainly not at larger stations.

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Indeed, this would seem to be logical, and the staff would still be part of the retail department.

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Not dispatching trains though surely, that would be down to the guard.

Depends on the station, at my TOC it's common. There's only 1 staff member at most of the smaller stations, many are gaurd dispatch, but we do have a fair few that are dispatched by the staff member who is also the ticket office clerk/cleaner/security gaurd!

 

[12LDA28C]

If that was the case there would be no need to lump them in with a pay deal.
As with DOO, that is now off the table and has been given to the TOCs to deal with.

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At GTR GN, all station staff are retail.

That is the case, as the Ts & Cs vary wildly from TOC to TOC so one size does not fit all.

Is GTR not DOO?

 

[KM1991]

The outstation ticket office staff do clean and look after their stations and I don't think you could force staff not currently working nights to start working them, without completely re-writing their contracts - besides I don't think there are many stations with dispatch staff who work nights.

There will be a review into rosters under this proposal.

 

[12LDA28C]

Depends on the station, at my TOC it's common. There's only 1 staff member at most of the smaller stations, many are gaurd dispatch, but we do have a fair few that are dispatched by the staff member who is also the ticket office clerk/cleaner/security gaurd!

So how does that work if a train is required to be dispatched and the one staff member is busy selling tickets? Does the train wait, or does a queue build up whilst the member of staff excuses him/herself to go and dispatch the train?

 

[KM1991]

Is GTR not DOO?

Farringdon, St Pancras and other General Purpose Relief station staff are competent in both train dispatch (if necessary) and ticket office. They do not work gateline though.

 

[GN Boy]

Is GTR not DOO?

Indeed we are (GN/TL side. Believe Southern are too).

 

[12LDA28C]

Farringdon, St Pancras and other General Purpose Relief station staff are competent in both train dispatch (if necessary) and ticket office. They do not work gateline though.

Interesting. So for budgeting / accounting purposes, are they classed as retail or operations? Or is no distinction made?

It makes more sense (to me at least) to have ticket office staff also work the gateline rather than carrying out safety-critical duties like dispatch.

 

[Philip]

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Indeed, this would seem to be logical, and the staff would still be part of the retail department.

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At busier stations a lot of ticket offices are on the go fairly consistently, especially between around 10am-2pm and so they need to be on hand at the desk to sell tickets and answer questions and don't much of a chance to go outside and stand at the barriers. The nature of customer requests' nowadays is frequently more complex and long winded than it used to be (online ticket collection/problems, excessing tickets, refunds etc) which again makes it less practical having the staff operating barriers at the same time.

 

[KM1991]

Interesting. So for budgeting / accounting purposes, are they classed as retail or operations? Or is no distinction made?

Not sure to be honest. One week they’re rostered on platforms, the next week in the Ticket office etc

 

[iecc2001]

What about the RMT and Network Rail, as a Signaller here in Glasgow we have continually felt left in the dark regarding negotiations. Think this is now 14 days without info other than last night email about no offer in writing yet ( my arse).

 

[12LDA28C]

Indeed we are (GN/TL side. Believe Southern are too).

Indeed, so station staff would not normally be required to dispatch trains.

 

[yorksrob]

I hope that this offer marks a change in policy which leads to keeping ticket offices in larger stations and hubs (whilst accepting that some of the smaller morning only offices may need to be re-deployed).

 

[12LDA28C]

At busier stations a lot of ticket offices are on the go fairly consistently, especially between around 10am-2pm and so they need to be on hand at the desk to sell tickets and answer questions and don't much of a chance to go outside and stand at the barriers. The nature of customer requests' nowadays is frequently more complex and long winded than it used to be (online ticket collection/problems, excessing tickets, refunds etc) which again makes it less practical having the staff operating barriers at the same time.

A fair point and having worked in a ticket office myself, I'm aware of that. My point is that the two roles seem complementary, falling as they do both under the retail / customer facing umbrella, whereas train dispatch is quite a different proposition.

 

[Scott1]

So how does that work if a train is required to be dispatched and the one staff member is busy selling tickets? Does the train wait, or does a queue build up whilst the member of staff excuses him/herself to go and dispatch the train?

The customers wait while the train is dispatched. Its a compromise on service to keep the cost down. Most locals are used to it, and they probably realise that without it they just wouldn't have a ticket office any more.

A fair point and having worked in a ticket office myself, I'm aware of that. My point is that the two roles seem complementary, falling as they do both under the retail / customer facing umbrella, whereas train dispatch is quite a different proposition.

I agree gate line lines up more with ticket office than dispatching. Queries on the desk now seem to mostly be people with online tickets who can't use them, understand them or find their train, which can take a while to sort out, and is not recognised as anything because nothing goes through the till, so these queries don't exist as far as the DfT are concerned.

 

[12LDA28C]

What about the RMT and Network Rail, as a Signaller here in Glasgow we have continually felt left in the dark regarding negotiations. Think this is now 14 days without info other than last night email about no offer in writing yet ( my arse).

No update or improved offer has been made regarding the RMT dispute AFAIK, but talks are ongoing.

 

[Railwayowl80]

So are all grades at risk with regards to there T and Cs changing and taking on dual roles like what’s been mentioned one min your at the Barriers the next your dispatching a train we’ll maybe, we don’t know what there plan is.

Reason I ask is with the removal of the DOO does that help bring a guard onboard with a possible yes vote to accept also as someone mentioned quite a few posts ago different tocs different roles so some people may be doing countless roles and feel well I do the purposed changes already so it’s a yes from me.

i work permanent nights already and Sundays as an example but I personally wouldn’t want to vote yes to sell someone else’s terms and conditions down the drain.

 

[thedotlair]

Being transparent, I'm a passenger and I have no intention of becoming involved in the wider debate as it's none of my business; however, I want to ask a question based on the recent post from the RMT that I thought was peculiar.

· Terms & Conditions: there are various other proposals on contractual terms and entitlements, including:-
o New Technology / Equipment to be adopted without additional payment

The line above struck me as I may be misunderstanding - but why would the introduction of a new piece of technology (say for instance a new handheld device for printing tickets/taking payment or provide a quicker method to get access to updated train/running information) necessitate additional payment? Would this be because of the daily usage or to assist with training and therefore unable to perform your normal duties that day, etc.? The latter (training) I completely agree with, as without training it's just another piece of technology that nobody understands, but the former I don't understand as if it makes life easier or assists with your duties, surely that's the payment in itself.

I can only liken it to in my job (IT Security) asking for more money because I've been given new type of laptop or an upgraded Operating Systems (like Windows 7 to Windows 11) - which would see me very quickly laughed at by my management team for being disruptive as it makes no difference to how I undertake my responsibilities.

Again, I don't mean to be disruptive or disrespect - merely looking to understand the rational and further my understanding.

 

[david1212]

It is indeed, and both RDG and the minister for transport have said that they must be savings.

Which needs to be defined for the running of trains and certain linked things e.g. ticket offices and station operation.
The saving could be absolute or a reduction in subsidy required.
If the latter getting more revenue for the same cost or a lower increase in cost would meet the objective.

For infrastructure directly a saving has to be a cut in expenditure. The big picture is required to see if maintaining or increasing expenditure overall generates a gain and hence a reduction in subsidy.

Well I’m a believer in the adage “pay peanuts, get monkeys” so I’d rather not see station staffing hollowed out to the zero hours contract/minimum wage lowest common denominator.

Exactly. You need the right people and for them to be properly trained and motivated to deliver good customer service. Poor service drives the discretionary customer away.

... DOO, that is now off the table and has been given to the TOCs to deal with.

.. so just moved to another table ( i.e. buck passed ) not off the table at all.

 

[Mainsideman]

Which needs to be defined for the running of trains and certain linked things e.g. ticket offices and station operation.
The saving could be absolute or a reduction in subsidy required.
If the latter getting more revenue for the same cost or a lower increase in cost would meet the objective.

For infrastructure directly a saving has to be a cut in expenditure. The big picture is required to see if maintaining or increasing expenditure overall generates a gain and hence a reduction in subsidy.



Exactly. You need the right people and for them to be motivated to deliver good customer service. Poor service drives the discretionary customer away.



.. so just moved to another table ( i.e. buck passed ) not off the table at all.

Tocs like merseyrai, SWR and GA all have deals with guards so would these still be honored

 

[Bantamzen]

Being transparent, I'm a passenger and I have no intention of becoming involved in the wider debate as it's none of my business; however, I want to ask a question based on the recent post from the RMT that I thought was peculiar.



The line above struck me as I may be misunderstanding - but why would the introduction of a new piece of technology (say for instance a new handheld device for printing tickets/taking payment or provide a quicker method to get access to updated train/running information) necessitate additional payment? Would this be because of the daily usage or to assist with training and therefore unable to perform your normal duties that day, etc.? The latter (training) I completely agree with, as without training it's just another piece of technology that nobody understands, but the former I don't understand as if it makes life easier or assists with your duties, surely that's the payment in itself.

I can only liken it to in my job (IT Security) asking for more money because I've been given new type of laptop or an upgraded Operating Systems (like Windows 7 to Windows 11) - which would see me very quickly laughed at by my management team for being disruptive as it makes no difference to how I undertake my responsibilities.

Again, I don't mean to be disruptive or disrespect - merely looking to understand the rational and further my understanding.

I must admit I was wondering much the same. If will be interesting to see what objections there are and the reasons for them. Certainly in my job new software and hardware is par for the course, and the only reason to consider a change in grade would be a change in responsibilities.

 

[Trainbike46]

Tocs like merseyrai, SWR and GA all have deals with guards so would these still be honored

Merseyrail is not a DfT TOC, so is not party to this offer anyway. The deals that have recently been accepted by RMT and Aslef on merseyrail aren't affected by the offer RDG made to the DfT TOCs.

I don't know the specifics of SWR and GA, so can't really comment

 

[Some guy]

I don't doubt it, the government are as weak as a damp sheet of kitchen roll.

Reform is essential. DOO is imperative.

You don't like DOO?

OK, we'll just make that for TOC negotiation, so you can show off by having another 15 TOC strikes over the next 15 years, just like the last.

It just wouldn’t work they can’t do away with safety critical guards who are fully trained in emergencies especially on 11 carriage trains. That will never ever happen unless the Tories force it through illegally

 

[12LDA28C]

As I understand it, and I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong, but any pay rise granted to staff has to pay for itself in productivity improvements and/or savings elsewhere to cover the cost of the increase.

In which case, why can't a 6 or 7% pay rise be offered with the TOCs agreeing to implement savings to cover this cost? What difference does it make to the DfT how much pay rise is given if it's self-financing as has been demanded?

 

[Smidster]

The line above struck me as I may be misunderstanding - but why would the introduction of a new piece of technology (say for instance a new handheld device for printing tickets/taking payment or provide a quicker method to get access to updated train/running information) necessitate additional payment? Would this be because of the daily usage or to assist with training and therefore unable to perform your normal duties that day, etc.? The latter (training) I completely agree with, as without training it's just another piece of technology that nobody understands, but the former I don't understand as if it makes life easier or assists with your duties, surely that's the payment in itself.

Hasn't it been the case at some stages that staff have been paid for doing things like scanning e-tickets (seem to remember seeing something that TPE staff getting 2p per scan)

Apologies if this is incorrect but if true it is completely nuts.

 

[Towers]

.. so just moved to another table ( i.e. buck passed ) not off the table at all.

As far as TOCs trying to implement DOO at a local level goes, I think it's highly unlikely that any of them are really going to think it's a good idea to launch the same attack that the DfT themselves have just failed with, particularly if the already deeply untrustworthy DfT have awarded themselves even more scope to distance themselves from it and pretend it's all the TOCs and union's fault. Under the National Rail Contract structure it's difficult to see what the incentive would be, given that a TOC is paid a set fee to provide the service and staff costs are obviously baked in to this. Overall it's pretty unlikely I think, this is merely the DfT backing down without openly admitting it.

 

[Some guy]

Hasn't it been the case at some stages that staff have been paid for doing things like scanning e-tickets (seem to remember seeing something that TPE staff getting 2p per scan)

Apologies if this is incorrect but if true it is completely nuts.

Northern conductors get 2p which is one of the highest a scan but that will probably because it’s DFT controlled