New railcard

[LexyBoy]

If you aren't going to be travelling with someone else, then you don't get the discount. If you claim the discount but don't qualify, then you have to pay full price. How is this complicated?

It's complicated because there's not only the railcard to forget, but also the other person! Result: more people being charged penalty fares (i.e. SOS) and disliking the railway as a result.

A reasonable compromise would be if one person in possession of both sets of tickets were allowed to travel, but I doubt this will be the case.

 

[AlterEgo]

A reasonable compromise would be if one person in possession of both sets of tickets were allowed to travel

Ooh, I smell common sense!

I await the guidance in NFM with interest. I too, share some of the concerns jonmorris0844 has raised. I don't think it is being introduced out of cynicism, but equally I am concerned about the implementation...

 

[firespire]

If you have a Groupsave where you have got three tickets for the price of two but the third person cancels and the pair left are in possession of all three tickets. What is the current procedure?

 

[nedchester]

A simple solution as I have already said is to have the Network card extended Nationwide with a few restrictions (or course it would be really sensible to have a non restricted card like in Germany and Switzerland).

Maybe an all Network card would be £50 with 16-25, Senior, F&F at £25 with similar conditions.

At the moment the Network card is a real anomaly as 'Network South East' as was no longer exists.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ooh, I smell common sense!

I await the guidance in NFM with interest. I too, share some of the concerns jonmorris0844 has raised. I don't think it is being introduced out of cynicism, but equally I am concerned about the implementation...

I think it is being introduced out of ignorance about how the public use the railways!!

 

[jon0844]

If you have a Groupsave where you have got three tickets for the price of two but the third person cancels and the pair left are in possession of all three tickets. What is the current procedure?

I think you're stung - but that's a system already in use and people must accept the T&Cs. I just don't want something new to be created with draconian punishments.

Groupsave can be abused, as you could just get people to go to a TVM (or ticket window) and buy four tickets for the price of two, even though you're not travelling together at all. Imagine me queuing up and saying to the couple behind 'want to pretend you're with me?' and splitting the savings. We may consequently travel together on the first 'leg' but almost certainly not back together.

This railcard system only works with two named people, so is slightly different. I am not sure I can see how it can be abused, yet I can see how the rules may punish people who have their circumstances change.

 

[WillPS]

I still don't believe this isn't just an elaborate hoax from Justin Smith.

 

[JB1601]

I guess no different to the Family/Friends railcard? If the child in the party can't go, you don't get the discount anymore as that is the key component of it? (I'm guessing, I think that's how it works).

It sounds great to me. I lost my 16-25 discount earlier this year when I hit 27 and most of my journeys are up north with my fiancee to see family. I can see why people end up switching to the car when there is more than one of them as it can work out cheaper, especially when you work office hours and have to travel at peak times when there are fewer advance tickets available, so this is a great incentive for couples (or even friends who do a lot of travelling together!) to use the train more. But I also find the Network railcard a bit mystifying, surely the whole country deserves that kind of card and not just the SE?

 

[theblackwatch]

A simple solution as I have already said is to have the Network card extended Nationwide with a few restrictions (or course it would be really sensible to have a non restricted card like in Germany and Switzerland).

I too had been thinking of Germany and Switzerland when reading this thread.

For those benefit of those who are interested - in Germany, there are several variants of Bahncard - one which offers 25% off costs 57 Euros (approx £50), or 50% off for 230 Euros (around £202), and finally a Bahncard 100% which gives travel on all DB services for a year for 3,800 Euros (approx £3,350). Interestingly, according to Wikipedia "The main motivation for introducing the BahnCard was to increase competitiveness against the automobile." I'm not sure that reason is ever considered in the UK when it comes to rail fares!

In Switzerland, a half fare travelcard costs 165 CHF (roughly £132).

 

[Greenback]

Although this seems to have not gone down to well with most people on here I have to say it would be great for me and my wife as we don't have children, so a railcard that gets us some discount would be superb.

My other half and I often travel together, but not always. As such, it would be useful to us, but I am still concerned as to why ATOC have decided to trial this particular product.

The only logical reason to force someone to travel with someone else (and, in fact, the same person) is to make the card a lot less useful and flexible than a single railcard... and thus, it's to try and reduce the chances of people being able to use it.

It will also hand the media loads of easy stories on a plate when people get in trouble for having bought two tickets but the second person can't travel. Okay, you'll get people who just buy one ticket to get the discount, but what would happen if you had bought two tickets and carried them with you even though the second person wasn't there? Would you get charged extra? This would have 'take it to court' written all over it as the railway would have lost nothing, and in fact gained an extra seat from the person who didn't go.

To expect the person to excess the first ticket would be adding insult to injury, and it makes little sense to create a system whereby someone would have to excess the ticket they used and claim a refund (less an admin fee) for the one they didn't. What a lot of fuss that will make it easier to either pay full price or travel by bus/car/taxi etc.

And I say all this despite being married and therefore, in theory, benefiting from the card. However, we're not joined at the hip and don't always travel everywhere together.

I agree. I make several trips a year on my own for one reason or another, not including business trips, commuting and rover/ranger jaunts.

It's complicated because there's not only the railcard to forget, but also the other person! Result: more people being charged penalty fares (i.e. SOS) and disliking the railway as a result.

A reasonable compromise would be if one person in possession of both sets of tickets were allowed to travel, but I doubt this will be the case.

I doubt it too. One potential problem would be getting split up on a journey. On one occasion Mrs Greenback was on the train whilst I was left on the platform due to overcrowding. Another time we ended up in different parts of the train.

What if the train had emptied out in a couple of stops and the guard then checks Mrs Greenback's ticket?!

I can see why people end up switching to the car when there is more than one of them as it can work out cheaper, especially when you work office hours and have to travel at peak times when there are fewer advance tickets available, so this is a great incentive for couples (or even friends who do a lot of travelling together!) to use the train more. But I also find the Network railcard a bit mystifying, surely the whole country deserves that kind of card and not just the SE?

I think that rolling the Network Card out nationwide would be better than theis new proposal. But the TOC's don't like the Network Card. The couples card has all the hallmarks of being cobbled together by a committee as a compromise so that all the TOC's can agree.

 

[nedchester]

I too had been thinking of Germany and Switzerland when reading this thread.

For those benefit of those who are interested - in Germany, there are several variants of Bahncard - one which offers 25% off costs 57 Euros (approx £50), or 50% off for 230 Euros (around £202), and finally a Bahncard 100% which gives travel on all DB services for a year for 3,800 Euros (approx £3,350). Interestingly, according to Wikipedia "The main motivation for introducing the BahnCard was to increase competitiveness against the automobile." I'm not sure that reason is ever considered in the UK when it comes to rail fares!

The only thing they try and do in this country is extract as much revenue as possible but claim to be green..........

 

[wibble]

Don't forget this is only a trial and the railcard is unlikely to become permanent if the trial shows that the rail card doesn't generate any extra off peak rail travel.

I think part of the thinking around the railcard is to prevent an individual from commuting on a railcard - this was largely tackled by the intorduction of a minimum fare on the Network Railcard. And, the Two Together Railcard would be available nationally, without any pre-qualifying eligibility (i.e. age or geographical location).

Besides, it's easier to create a new product to fit a market rather than take an existing one, hack bits off and add bits on to it.

 

[jon0844]

Firstly, if this fails - we'll NEVER get a single railcard like other Europeans enjoy.

With a reasonable minimum fare and an 'after 1000' restriction, how many people commuted with a railcard? That sounds like a silly reason to try and restrict usage. People who do commute after 1000 and only off-peak aren't a problem and should be encouraged!

Do Europeans who get 25, 50 or 100% off get told that they shouldn't try and use it too much?

ATOC once again proves itself to be greedy, or offer something that sounds good but won't actually be in reality.

 

[lemonic]

I will point out than an interesting condition of the BahnCard 50, not 25 or 100, is that you can't use the card to get a discount on the Sparpreis (equivalent of Advance) fares.

 

[LexyBoy]

I too hope this isn't a case of designing something to fail :roll: Thing is, whilst very restrictive, it will be very useful to a lot of people, so I really hope it does work out.

If you have a Groupsave where you have got three tickets for the price of two but the third person cancels and the pair left are in possession of all three tickets. What is the current procedure?

Officially, the tickets are valid only for the group specified. Of course, there's nothing to stop you making a new friend for the journey back

IME (on FGW), guards don't have a problem with it, as you've obviously paid the correct amount for two people and the third either isn't travelling or will have bought a new ticket.

ScotRail policy is to accept groups smaller than the specified number provided all tickets are held, though I think ScotRail's groupsave offer is slightly different to that in the south.

 

[snail]

Stupid me for not realising they'd make sure you have to buy two tickets.

On that basis; if you buy two tickets but one person can't go - what is the chance that they'll succeed in getting you to excess to a full price ticket - given you've 'lost' the second ticket and the railway has not lost anything at all.

I'd presume the T&Cs will state you must get a refund in pairs too.

How does the Northern Duo work if one person travels? That is issued as one ticket covering two people, so it's impossible for the travellers to split their journeys (e.g. out together, return separately). I would think, as the fare for the Duo ticket is 50% higher than the fare for one person, that it's ok for one person to use the ticket on their own. But then common sense and rail ticketing don't always see eye to eye!

If tickets on this new railcard are issued as one coupon then it reinforces the need for both people to travel together. Simples.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Two Together Railcard is in the new NFM data, it is £28 and can be bought from stations in the postcodes of Birmingham (B), Coventry (CV), Dudley(DY), Walsall (WS) and Wolverhampton (WV) and for use by two people who are both 16 years of age or older and where the first card holder lives in the trial area.

Discounts are available on Off-Peak (BVS, BVR, CDS, CDR, GDS, GDR, OPS, OPR,ODT,SCO, STO, SSS, SSR, SVS, SVR, SVH, 1DR, 1DT, SOP, PDS, PDR, SWS, SRR, C1R, CBA, WRE), Anytime (SDS, SDR, SOS, SOR, GOR, ADT, GPR), Advance (All first and standard types), some rail/sea journeys and also EFS, EFR, ELS, ELR, EOS, EOR, EVS AND EVR fares.

Discounts are not available between 0430 and 0930 Mon-Fri (except Public Holidays) and minimum fares apply to some travelcards.

Not valid on Eurostar, Season tickets, LUL services (except for travelcards), through journeys across London on tickets routed 'Via London', rail-air coaches, Oyster pay as you go, PlusBus and special excursions or charters and on some TOC specific or rail partnership fares.

The rest is pretty standard by the looks of it.

How does the Northern Duo work if one person travels? That is issued as one ticket covering two people, so it's impossible for the travellers to split their journeys (e.g. out together, return separately)....

Duo is issued as two sets of tickets, one at the price of the fare paid and one at zero fare.

 

[RYS]

Initially this seems like a ridiculous and pointless railcard. The only scenario I can think of where this might change people's behaviour is in the following situation:

A person normally gets the first off-peak train of the day, and their friend normally gets the train before that. The friend isn't bothered about saving money and always travels at peak time, but now this railcard persuades them to get the later train from now on because they realise they will be helping their friend save money.

In other words they are targeting people who can afford peak fares but have friends that can't. How many people is this really going to affect?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It could be said this is a disposable railcard in that if the two people travelled from Manchester to London and back they'd save half the price of a railcard on the one trip! (taking into account the cost of the railcard)

 

[snail]

Duo is issued as two sets of tickets, one at the price of the fare paid and one at zero fare.

Not when I have bought them! I've always been given one ticket at the combined fare, with Adult: TWO on it.

 

[JB1601]

Initially this seems like a ridiculous and pointless railcard. The only scenario I can think of where this might change people's behaviour is in the following situation:

A person normally gets the first off-peak train of the day, and their friend normally gets the train before that. The friend isn't bothered about saving money and always travels at peak time, but now this railcard persuades them to get the later train from now on because they realise they will be helping their friend save money.

In other words they are targeting people who can afford peak fares but have friends that can't. How many people is this really going to affect?

How about two people who regularly travel together (a couple, friends?) but are often tempted to use the car as with there being two of them and only one tank of petrol, it might work out cheaper?

I admit I'm biased as I'll benefit a lot from this card but I don't see why it's such a bizarre idea. It could be really popular - indeed it'll be pretty much the only national railcard for those of us who are out of the 16-25 one and who don't have a family yet, aren't disabled, aren't old enough for the senior one, etc etc.

 

[snail]

I admit I'm biased as I'll benefit a lot from this card but I don't see why it's such a bizarre idea. It could be really popular - indeed it'll be pretty much the only national railcard for those of us who are out of the 16-25 one and who don't have a family yet, aren't disabled, aren't old enough for the senior one, etc etc.

I agree. I find the Northern Duo is good on the Furness line. There the fares are relatively small, so it's not a massive saving but if I was going farther afield then the savings would begin to add up. It discriminates against the solo traveller, but then so do many other places, especially hotels!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not when I have bought them! I've always been given one ticket at the combined fare, with Adult: TWO on it.

Interesting, different machines must issue them differently, it has always been two sets when I have issued them, unless there is a way to combine them that I haven't found yet.

 

[jon0844]

I get the idea about encouraging a couple to travel by train because you get a discount and this is a great idea and may well prove popular.

But then one day this couple may find that one of them needs to rush home early or can't go at all - so the other person then gets stung because they're on a discounted ticket that they're no longer entitled to. OR they now have to queue up to get an excess on one, and a refund on the other.

Now if it was a full price ticket with another one free (thus in effect a nice 50% discount), or a ticket marked as being valid for two people, it may be okay as you'd presumably not get stung for not having the second person with you (being free, there's clearly no loss to the railway). The problem is that with the railway industry as it is, someone would probably claim there is some loss to the railway with only one person travelling on a train when there is supposed to be two!

As soon as the couple experience the hassle of changing tickets or being hit with a penalty on a train, they'll probably not bother next time around.

It seems to me that it would make far more sense to go for the buy one get one free (but only with one pre-registered partner) as it solves the problem and would almost certainly prove popular. Couples could of course be made up of anyone.

 

[snail]

Interesting, different machines must issue them differently, it has always been two sets when I have issued them, unless there is a way to combine them that I haven't found yet.

I generally buy them from a station booking office at Virgin stations on the WCML. Last one was at Lancaster a few weeks ago when we decided to go on to Arnside for lunch, definitely issued as one ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....But then one day this couple may find that one of them needs to rush home early or can't go at all - so the other person then gets stung because they're on a discounted ticket that they're no longer entitled to. OR they now have to queue up to get an excess on one, and a refund on the other.....

This situation already potentially exists with the Family and Friends Railcard so I'm not sure that it is such a big issue.

....Now if it was a full price ticket with another one free (thus in effect a nice 50% discount), or a ticket marked as being valid for two people, it may be okay as you'd presumably not get stung for not having the second person with you (being free, there's clearly no loss to the railway). The problem is that with the railway industry as it is, someone would probably claim there is some loss to the railway with only one person travelling on a train when there is supposed to be two!....

So for £28 you want a years travel?

....As soon as the couple experience the hassle of changing tickets or being hit with a penalty on a train, they'll probably not bother next time around.

It seems to me that it would make far more sense to go for the buy one get one free (but only with one pre-registered partner) as it solves the problem and would almost certainly prove popular. Couples could of course be made up of anyone.

People do generally seem to manage with Family and Friends Railcards and Groupsave, so I'm not sure how this is any different.

 

[jon0844]

So for £28 you want a years travel?

I didn't ask for it to be £28!

I'd quite like a national railcard that I could pay £50-100 for, up front, giving the industry a bit of money while also giving me an incentive to travel by train when I might otherwise not bother.

If it's all for off-peak travel, but perhaps with some other form of loyalty (such as a partner being able to travel with you for no extra charge at weekends) then I fail to see how this is a problem.

If someone works flexible hours and can now use this railcard to get cheaper travel for work than buying a normal season ticket (generally only beneficial for those who travel at peak times) then that's not 'getting around the system' but actually using it. Every ticket sold is a good thing isn't it?

The problem is the TOCs would want a system that discourages too much usage, while the country should be after a system to get people out of their cars.

I also think TOCs are of the opinion that some people are forced to take the train, so they should be milked for as much money as possible. Those who can pick and choose aren't worth 'fighting for'.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I didn't ask for it to be £28!....

So how much is a years travel worth to you?

....Every ticket sold is a good thing isn't it?....

That depends, if you are discounting by a third, you need a new ticket for every two tickets already being sold just to break even. So, if for every new ticket you are discounting twenty existing tickets, it isn't very good at all.

The problem is the TOCs would want a system that discourages too much usage, while the country should be after a system to get people out of their cars.

I also think TOCs are of the opinion that some people are forced to take the train, so they should be milked for as much money as possible. Those who can pick and choose aren't worth 'fighting for'.

As a business, any company would do the same, it's not restricted to the railway.

 

[jon0844]

So how much is a years travel worth to you?

I am not sure I get you? I pay £3,500 at the moment for a year of travel in London and out to Hatfield (In Germany, that would effectively buy me an ALR). I get weekends in London free, but outside of that I get 33% off within the former NSE area and can also bring other people with me for the same discount.

If I want to travel further, I get NO discount at all. I'd pay for a European-style discount card at a fairly high price if I got a sizable discount for and perhaps others with me. In other words, the Network Railcard extended to the whole of the UK.

By all means introduce a minimum (£13 is already high enough that it makes usage impossible for my wife in the week) and certain restrictions on times - but to say that any business would do it seems to be at odds with how other railways abroad work. Why am I allowed to get the 33% off in the NSE area then? Why not just get rid of the benefits of the Gold Card as I would need to commute regardless.

Just because we'll probably never get one doesn't stop me wanting a national railcard. Of course, why should the railway want to encourage regular travel if it's trying to price people OFF the railway to cope with the increased demand. Fewer people paying more means the same revenue.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You said....

....Now if it was a full price ticket with another one free (thus in effect a nice 50% discount), or a ticket marked as being valid for two people, it may be okay as you'd presumably not get stung for not having the second person with you (being free, there's clearly no loss to the railway)....

....So how much extra would you pay for one person to go 'free'?

 

[jon0844]

I don't know how much I'd pay. Let ATOC do some market research and come up with something, then ask me!

I would say that I'd expect it to be more than £28 a year though! If someone then thinks a railcard is too expensive, they don't have to buy one and can pay the normal price. Just as someone who travels a lot might buy an ALR.

I am pretty sure that some TOCs did once offer unlimited use of their own 'network' at weekends (beyond the validity of your season ticket) and I believe some also allowed a partner to come along free too. But that obviously required the purchase of annual season ticket - which is cash in the bank for a TOC.

I've suggested to FCC many times that as fares go up, they consider upping the freebies given the season ticket holders who may start to think about alternative means of getting to work (cycling, car, coach or whatever).

I guess they've done the maths and worked out that most people are stuck using the train so there's no need to do anything at all. Hence, over the years I've gone from getting a bunch of first class 'rover' passes for me and a partner, usable on the whole of FCC's network at weekends, to two standard class scratchcards for just one person (in other words, just one free journey for me and my wife as I have to use a card for myself if I want to go beyond the area covered by my season). What's more, it's only valid on a single point to point journey that must be written on in advance - so no unlimited usage (although, that said, staff didn't seem to check them that closely or stamp/mark them so I suppose I could).