New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[thisisdash]

Does anyone know why New Malden was only barriered on one side? It surely can't be because they ran out of money, yet why install barriers on one side in the first place?

No room for a second set! As you can see from the image, the underbridge to the southbound platforms opens right onto the taxi rank on the backside of the station. There's no building and no room for a barrier.

They did originally, when installing the gateline, close this exit entirely with metal bar prison-style doors (similar to Vauxhall back entrance) and release these with a ticket inspector at Peak times but there was an uproar and the doors were removed, thus leaving it open again. I guess they thought this was acceptable because the taxi rank (side exit) is off the main high street and isn't clearly signposted, so only those in the know would know it was there.

New Malden side entrance
https://i.imgur.com/AKNmmbMl.png

 

[Goldfish62]

No I didn't, since SWT didn't offer delay repay and punctuality was a bit better back in those days. You're right to bring that point up though and I'm aware the root cause of the punctuality issues is little to do with the TOC. I have, however, used the DR process with several other TOCs numerous times including the much maligned Govia and have never had anything like this level of difficulty with it. I use TfL and Greater Anglia's DR schemes often (I know TfL isn't strictly DR) as they're my local operators and very seldom have any trouble.

Long response times I can deal with, queries regarding more complex claims I can understand, but ignoring emails until you really push hard, setting up their email system to intentionally deceive and deny you the ability to appeal, offering no meaningful telephone support and generally trying to weasel out of even the smallest claims is just not something I see with other operators at all, apart from perhaps the last bit. Even then, they'll usually just give out the compensation for half an hour instead of an hour being claimed or something and leave it at that. We aren't dealing with large sums here yet SWR are making a concerted effort to place the blame on the passenger without cause. Clearly many of the same staff are involved but whoever's managing them is giving a very poor impression.

I've had a couple of very poor experiences with SWT, one where I had to get Passenger Focus to intervene.

A couple of years ago I found a Passenger Focus table showing number of referrals by TOC. SWT was by far the highest even taking into account passenger numbers. Clearly things weren't wonderful in SWT days.

I would guess that staff are still trying to adapt to the higher workload of Delay Repay.

 

[infobleep]

No room for a second set! As you can see from the image, the underbridge to the southbound platforms opens right onto the taxi rank on the backside of the station. There's no building and no room for a barrier.

They did originally, when installing the gateline, close this exit entirely with metal bar prison-style doors (similar to Vauxhall back entrance) and release these with a ticket inspector at Peak times but there was an uproar and the doors were removed, thus leaving it open again. I guess they thought this was acceptable because the taxi rank (side exit) is off the main high street and isn't clearly signposted, so only those in the know would know it was there.

New Malden side entrance
https://i.imgur.com/AKNmmbMl.png

How fascinating. It will be interesting to see how they solve it this time. Maybe the bars and gates will be up and they will just ignore those who moan. They can say it's in the franchise agreement so it has to be done.

The two sides are not so far apart so I don't see it as a major issue, apart from if their isn't enough barriers to serve those entering and exiting.

It's always worse if you have a long walk round to get to the area beside the other side of the station.

Edit: just seen the photo and thought, hi about the build a small shelter with ticket gates in. Other places have done it. Hyawards Heath springs to mind.

 

[Goldfish62]

Latest action announced by RMT:-

1.All Guards, Commercial Guards and Train Driver Members

•Not to undertake any rest day working from 00:01 hours on Friday 16th February 2018 until 23:59 hours on Monday 19th February 2018.

2.Guard and Commercial Guard Members

•From 00:01 hours on Friday 16th February 2018 until 23:59 hours on Monday 19th February 2018, all Guards and Commercial Guard members are instructed to take industrial action by refusing to work in accordance with key sections of the Guards Restructuring Agreement.

So a rest day ban for 4 days. Not exactly going to have the management quaking in their boots. The second point is interesting. I didn't know you could pick and choose which parts of your job you do. ASLEF tried that with 12 car trains on Gatwick and DOO and it cost them a lot of money. Interesting to see if the lawyers get involved in that one

Presumably the last hurrah before they have to reballot.

Not sure about point 2. I'd have thought you can withdraw your labour partially instead of fully and it would still be legal. However, I'd have also thought that a company could withhold pay for the whole shift on this basis. But then I have no idea about the Guards Restructuring Agreement.

 

[TEW]

Presumably the last hurrah before they have to reballot.

Not sure about point 2. I'd have thought you can withdraw your labour partially instead of fully and it would still be legal. However, I'd have also thought that a company could withhold pay for the whole shift on this basis. But then I have no idea about the Guards Restructuring Agreement.

Current ballot is valid for another 2 months or so yet. The union believe the action to be legal and note that the company are not seeking to claim that it is illegal in the courts. The point about pay is interesting. I believe the company potentially could refuse to pay for the whole shift, but if they were going to do that, it is very unlikely that anyone affected would do any work for the whole shift.

 

[XDM]

It is absurd that suburban services from Waterloo have, for years, carried a guard in a rear or middle cab who does nothing except act as a doorman & who stops the train running when she/he fails to turn up.
In the 1960's these Waterloo guards looked after newspapers, pigeons, parcels & even milkchurns from Clandon & the trains had slam doors.
Now these "guards" just add pointlessly to the cost of running these trains & even add to the dwell time. I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors. That is 8 mins wasted on a Shepperton rounder with 15 stops each way. Roll on DOO.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The company has responded internally to this move from the RMT, it's not for me to divulge the content of the email but there may be more to come from the RMT regarding point 2 which is a little unclear to members as things stand.

 

[bb21]

A reminder to please leave out pointless snide comments and stick to sensible discussions please, for or against the industrial action and/or DOO on SWR.

 

[bb21]

I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors.

They do not, not when things are settled and there is nothing wrong.

15 seconds is an awfully long time.

 

[TEW]

It is absurd that suburban services from Waterloo have, for years, carried a guard in a rear or middle cab who does nothing except act as a doorman & who stops the train running when she/he fails to turn up.
In the 1960's these Waterloo guards looked after newspapers, pigeons, parcels & even milkchurns from Clandon & the trains had slam doors.
Now these "guards" just add pointlessly to the cost of running these trains & even add to the dwell time. I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors. That is 8 mins wasted on a Shepperton rounder with 15 stops each way. Roll on DOO.

You almost had a good point until you started talking about a "Shepperton Rounder", Shepperton being a dead end branch line of course.

Oh no, wait, you didn't have a good point at all. Just the usual rant without any facts or evidence.

 

[74A]

It is absurd that suburban services from Waterloo have, for years, carried a guard in a rear or middle cab who does nothing except act as a doorman & who stops the train running when she/he fails to turn up.
In the 1960's these Waterloo guards looked after newspapers, pigeons, parcels & even milkchurns from Clandon & the trains had slam doors.
Now these "guards" just add pointlessly to the cost of running these trains & even add to the dwell time. I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors. That is 8 mins wasted on a Shepperton rounder with 15 stops each way. Roll on DOO.

If you are going to keep a second person on the train closing the doors I would prefer them stay in the back cab and watch the doors via monitors. At least then you would get the performance benefit of DOO despatch.

I have been on the 707 a few times. The door opening wasn't that slow. Where you do lose is despatch. There was an extra 10-20 seconds at each stop compared to a DOO 700 on Thameslink. So with 30 stops thats 5 - 10 minutes wasted.

 

[Monty]

It is absurd that suburban services from Waterloo have, for years, carried a guard in a rear or middle cab who does nothing except act as a doorman & who stops the train running when she/he fails to turn up.
In the 1960's these Waterloo guards looked after newspapers, pigeons, parcels & even milkchurns from Clandon & the trains had slam doors.
Now these "guards" just add pointlessly to the cost of running these trains & even add to the dwell time. I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors. That is 8 mins wasted on a Shepperton rounder with 15 stops each way. Roll on DOO.

What's absurd is your continuing verbal diarrhoea about the role of the guard, you have for the last few years continued (at great pleasure it seems) to antagonise forum members who worry that they may loose their jobs.

Also if you going to post your opinions as facts you should back it up with hard evidence.

 

[Goldfish62]

Current ballot is valid for another 2 months or so yet. The union believe the action to be legal and note that the company are not seeking to claim that it is illegal in the courts. The point about pay is interesting. I believe the company potentially could refuse to pay for the whole shift, but if they were going to do that, it is very unlikely that anyone affected would do any work for the whole shift.

Yes, I agree re Point 2.

 

[wibble]

What's absurd is your continuing verbal diarrhoea about the role of the guard, you have for the last few years continued (at great pleasure it seems) to antagonise forum members who worry that they may loose their jobs.

Also if you going to post your opinions as facts you should back it up with hard evidence.

From my perspective as a customer, having travelled on London Midland, EMT, SWT, GWR and Virgin West Coast, I would question the role of the guard. That's not an attempt to antagonise anyone but more often than not, you don't see them at all - I genuinely don't know what the guard does on the train. That's not a flippant comment, it's based on hundreds of train journeys over the last 20 years.

In most cases, the guard makes an announcement and that's it. On a small number of occasions, you might have a ticket check. Rarely, you'll see the guard more than once in the carriage. As most of my journeys are between 45 and 90min, I think I have a pretty good view of how much work a guard appears to do.

 

[HowardGWR]

The guards on my two SWR routes (Weymouth and Exeter) work hard enough. They have to as, otherwise, not much revenue would be collected. If they could be relieved of door handling, I am sure they could have even more time to deal with customers. A long distance train needs an onboard official because there is a higher percentage of occasional travellers, who need advice and reassurance.

 

[pompeyfan]

From my perspective as a customer, having travelled on London Midland, EMT, SWT, GWR and Virgin West Coast, I would question the role of the guard. That's not an attempt to antagonise anyone but more often than not, you don't see them at all - I genuinely don't know what the guard does on the train. That's not a flippant comment, it's based on hundreds of train journeys over the last 20 years.

In most cases, the guard makes an announcement and that's it. On a small number of occasions, you might have a ticket check. Rarely, you'll see the guard more than once in the carriage. As most of my journeys are between 45 and 90min, I think I have a pretty good view of how much work a guard appears to do.

Okay we’ll flip the question on its head, what would you like the train guard to do? They have to find a fine balance between hammering up and down the train and annoying long distance passengers, and trying to ensure as many different passengers see them, also remember with longer and longer formation services it might be difficult to see a guard.

I agree and accept that there are some/many lazy train guards out there, but that is by no means the rule of thumb.

 

[Matt Taylor]

From my perspective as a customer, having travelled on London Midland, EMT, SWT, GWR and Virgin West Coast, I would question the role of the guard. That's not an attempt to antagonise anyone but more often than not, you don't see them at all - I genuinely don't know what the guard does on the train. That's not a flippant comment, it's based on hundreds of train journeys over the last 20 years.

In most cases, the guard makes an announcement and that's it. On a small number of occasions, you might have a ticket check. Rarely, you'll see the guard more than once in the carriage. As most of my journeys are between 45 and 90min, I think I have a pretty good view of how much work a guard appears to do.

Since becoming a guard I've taken over a quarter of a million pounds in fares, I've assisted countless numbers of passengers with mobility issues, dealt with passengers requiring medical assistance, helped my driver in dealing with a body on the line in front of our train, used the emergency equipment to cut up a tree that we hit and had become wedged under the train, organised police assistance for a violent passenger, broken up a fight on a platform late at night, made an emergency stop due to people train surfing that the driver had no idea about, safely dispatched from over fifty thousand station stops and saved countless delay minutes by being proactive and working expediently.

But apart from that I guess I don't add anything of value.

 

[infobleep]

It is absurd that suburban services from Waterloo have, for years, carried a guard in a rear or middle cab who does nothing except act as a doorman & who stops the train running when she/he fails to turn up.
In the 1960's these Waterloo guards looked after newspapers, pigeons, parcels & even milkchurns from Clandon & the trains had slam doors.
Now these "guards" just add pointlessly to the cost of running these trains & even add to the dwell time. I am told that on the new 707 trains some guards take 15 seconds at each station to release the doors. That is 8 mins wasted on a Shepperton rounder with 15 stops each way. Roll on DOO.

I would argue the biggest delay is in 450 and 444 stock and they aren't even replacing them.

If they are so concerned about time those should be replaced first, as they take longest to open. Some of the Woking morning peak stopper to Surbtion use those.

Personally I value the guards and don't want to see them go.

I would love to see the stats of trains cancelled due to lack of guard vers trains cancelled due to lack of driver. The figures are probably so low they wouldn't want to publish them.

One train was cancelled tonight due to a driver being ill. Even running without guards won't stop that from occurring. They initially just cancelled London Waterloo, which suggests they were trying to find someone else to drive it but eventually it was cancelled throughout. This was the 18:30 to Portsmouth Harbour .

 

[LowLevel]

The problem with the guard's role is that often when it's doing well nothing appears to happen. Day to day like my colleague above I answer questions, take (rather a lot of) revenue, assist passengers who need extra help for whatever reason, make sure luggage is stored safely (I've had a suitcase land on someone's head on my train before. It's not nice) and do menial tasks like tidy litter and attempt to fix broken toilets, doors, seats, air conditioning or windows. There are exceptions but I usually feel I've done a worthwhile day's work.

Then there are the other occasions where my endeavours have involved such joys as -

Monitoring and arranging the safe collection of a man who absconded from hospital with a brain aneurysm having already been told to stress him out could effectively cause the inside of his head to burst and kill him involving 3 way phonecalls to 2 different police forces, a doctor and his wife.

Having to physically intervene with a drugged up man determined to do some damage to a colleague and escort him to safety in a driving cab.

Reassure a small child and her father who were locked in a toilet for almost an hour due to a faulty door, particularly when the fitters were having to resort to breaking in on arrival.

Stopping an express doing 125 mph on the other line with a large part of the front fairing of the locomotive pushing detached at one end striking various lineside structures.

Intervening in a passenger having a serious mental breakdown on board and keeping them and the other passengers safe.

Dealing with a man with a suspected nicked artery in his foot.

Picking up and patching up my driver after he slipped and ripped his leg open on a door step having nearly fell between the train and the platform.

Fights. Fights. Fights. Did I mention fights?

Detecting a serious engine fault and arranging for it to be isolated before a large chunk of it decided to come through the floor (the whole engine block was scrapped).

There are other things but you get the picture. Generally I get up to quite a bit and crucially I get very little or no notice that the journey is about to go to pot.

I object greatly to the Government's way of thinking that we are a nice to have who should be left behind in the name of punctuality.

 

[Wychwood93]

Some of the comments from guards are things that I have done as a non-guard - a Manager at Eastleigh - a guy with a knife at Southampton one day, shuffled customers around and escorted the man off the train. Took me 10+ years to actually mention it to my wife. To me it was what you do - not a hero, just doing something for the 'job'. Other bits and pieces over the years for the sake of keeping things running and on occasion minimising delay. Not all of the things were 'by the rules' but it kept the railway going. Which is the main thing.

This is not a rant to do with guards (or whatever they are called now - a bit like MOMs etc.) - there are good, bad and, to be honest, useless, as with any job. I like to see a member of staff go through the train - check tickets, deal with customers etc. A visible face is what people like -unless they get an excess for travelling on the wrong train - I like it as well. I mean the visible face although witnessing a decent excess can be oddly fun. I assume, by the way, that guards still get a percentage of fares they take on the train?

Over the years there are fewer familiar faces - perhaps ageing has something to do with that.

 

[fairysdad]

I have been following this relatively closely, partially because as somebody who commutes on SWR it affects me personally, and also because of my interest in railways. But I think one of the reasons the RMT is beginning to lose favour with passengers has been demonstrated in the past few posts. This whole argument over Driver Only Operation seems to have been constantly focused on by the media as a fight over 'the doors'. (Quite possibly because the acronym DOO is very similar to the word 'Door' - I only say that half in jest!)

There has been no explanation from the RMT - or, I suppose to be fair, one that's been picked up and published in the media - as to what the role of the guard actually is. I've started a conversation with a few people offline or on other forums/social media I frequent, and the answer to my asking what the guard does is generally along the lines of 'Opens and closes the doors, makes announcements, checks tickets.' And, a lot of the time, I've not really had a counter argument because actually I cannot think of what else a guard does, especially as on the SWR suburban lines, many guards only seem to do the first one, leaving the announcements to the automated system or even not bothering altogether, and doesn't work their way through the train even though sometimes they say they will.

(I am merely an enthusiast, I have no employment on the railway, and, yes, I realise I probably should have steered away from conversations about this subject without having a suitable rebuttal!)

Now, a lot of the responses above have shown what the guard does is often something that happens spur-of-the-moment and isn't exactly a 'duty' of the guard except under the banner 'keeping the train safe', and that is what my usual answer would be. But it would help justify their cause if there was actually something put out there that would explain what a guard does and why they should be kept. Maybe some 'case studies' or something.

 

[700007]

I'm wondering if it could have been a good idea to link the proposed Pompey to So'ton semi-fast to the proposed extended stopping service from Haslemere - nearly all stops on the Portsmouth Direct and then semi-fast (and a stop at both Portchester and Woolston ideally too) to Southampton Central hourly. Surely this would be a good service? It means Portsmouth city centre loses out on a few potential extra train services however growth is still taking place on their rail network and they will still benefit.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm wondering if it could have been a good idea to link the proposed Pompey to So'ton semi-fast to the proposed extended stopping service from Haslemere - nearly all stops on the Portsmouth Direct and then semi-fast (and a stop at both Portchester and Woolston ideally too) to Southampton Central hourly. Surely this would be a good service? It means Portsmouth city centre loses out on a few potential extra train services however growth is still taking place on their rail network and they will still benefit.

But the whole point of the additional service is to increase fast capacity from Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton, not from Havant to Southampton. It’s probably going to ease the crowding on the GWR dmus as well...

 

[infobleep]

it would help justify their cause if there was actually something put out there that would explain what a guard does and why they should be kept. Maybe some 'case studies' or something.

I think having case studies is a great idea. Lots of companies do it to promote why they exist. In fact even public sector bodies use case studies to promote why they are a useful function.

Some case studies are also used to back up arguments.for example having a digital exchange of address locations between emergency services in Wales was brought in after a case study showed why it would be useful. To prove why it would be a good idea they used stats of people who had died because the emergency services didn't arrive soon enough.

Why not something similar for the guards, as fairysdad quite rightly states.

 

[infobleep]

But the whole point of the additional service is to increase fast capacity from Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton, not from Havant to Southampton. It’s probably going to ease the crowding on the GWR dmus as well...

Just make them change trains at Havant

 

[kw12]

Latest action announced by RMT:-

1.All Guards, Commercial Guards and Train Driver Members

•Not to undertake any rest day working from 00:01 hours on Friday 16th February 2018 until 23:59 hours on Monday 19th February 2018.

2.Guard and Commercial Guard Members

•From 00:01 hours on Friday 16th February 2018 until 23:59 hours on Monday 19th February 2018, all Guards and Commercial Guard members are instructed to take industrial action by refusing to work in accordance with key sections of the Guards Restructuring Agreement.

So a rest day ban for 4 days. Not exactly going to have the management quaking in their boots. The second point is interesting. I didn't know you could pick and choose which parts of your job you do. ASLEF tried that with 12 car trains on Gatwick and DOO and it cost them a lot of money. Interesting to see if the lawyers get involved in that one

I am puzzled why the RMT appears to have given less than 14 days notice of this industrial action. I was under the impression that since last March unions have had to give employers a minimum of 14 days notice of industrial action and that this applies to all forms of (official) industrial action, not just strike action. This announcement, on (and dated) Monday 5th, is a lot less than 14 days notice. Perhaps the union informed SWR last Thursday and then waited four days before letting anyone else know.

 

[Goldfish62]

I am puzzled why the RMT appears to have given less than 14 days notice of this industrial action. I was under the impression that since last March unions have had to give employers a minimum of 14 days notice of industrial action and that this applies to all forms of (official) industrial action, not just strike action. This announcement, on (and dated) Monday 5th, is a lot less than 14 days notice. Perhaps the union informed SWR last Thursday and then waited four days before letting anyone else know.

It's the date that an employer is notified. There's no obligation to notify anyone else.

 

[infobleep]

It's the date that an employer is notified. There's no obligation to notify anyone else.

I'm surprised the employer didn't announce it then.

Does anyone know how this differs from the aborted action last December or will that be known once members are more fully briefed on how this works.

I'm pleased to see that on Twitter SWR stff are calling this action for what it is, acyion short of a strike. Cross Country trains incorrectly called the action affecting them a strike, so it's good t see some honesty here.

Still I imagine the press releases that come ou5 will.be worded in such a way to make people think no changes are occurring when change are. The last press release came across l8oe that.

 

[wibble]

Okay we’ll flip the question on its head, what would you like the train guard to do? They have to find a fine balance between hammering up and down the train and annoying long distance passengers, and trying to ensure as many different passengers see them, also remember with longer and longer formation services it might be difficult to see a guard.

I agree and accept that there are some/many lazy train guards out there, but that is by no means the rule of thumb.

Based on my current experience, I would disagree. The RMT harp on about how important the guard is for safety and customer service but most guards (in my view) can't be arsed unless they have to. I'm sure the public already believe that their trains don't have guards!

I don't see a guard walking through the train as being annoying. It's something that SWT/SWR do reasonably well, and significantly better than other TOCs. That sort of reassurance would be helpful for a lot of people that are irregular travellers.

An on train ticket check would be nice every now and then (but as most of the stations I use have ticket gates, they don't feel the need to). I travel on a 5 car train which isn't busy at my ungated station - I've had 1 ticket on-train check in the last dozen journeys and that was revenue staff.

 

[XDM]

You almost had a good point until you started talking about a "Shepperton Rounder", Shepperton being a dead end branch line of course.

Oh no, wait, you didn't have a good point at all. Just the usual rant without any facts or evidence.

A Rounder means a Round trip to Shepperton. Crease.