New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[Wookiee]

According to some, the Pompey direct is just a branch line apparently

Might as well be, the speed that trains trundle along it at.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was an 8 car (for the first time I've ever seen or heard about it) on Saturday morning. The majority of stops beteeen Fareham and Southampton will release 7, except for Hamble, Bitterne and St Denys. Don't forget though the service will be semi fast, whatever that means.

Isn't it still to be confirmed whether the existing service (the all stations stopper) or the new 'fast' service will go through to Weymouth? None of the announcements are clear about this do far.

IF the through service combined some of the worst aspects of the existing services for pathing reasons, (e.g. it could be semi fast to Southampton and then take over the Poole all stations calls west of Southampton), then this wonderful new Portsmouth to Weymouth might even include 20 mins sitting in Southampton Central and 35 mins sitting in Brockenhurst P1 doing nothing... roll:

 

[infobleep]

There was an 8 car (for the first time I've ever seen or heard about it) on Saturday morning. The majority of stops beteeen Fareham and Southampton will release 7, except for Hamble, Bitterne and St Denys. Don't forget though the service will be semi fast, whatever that means. One would imagine Harbour, Southsea, Fratton, Cosham, Fareham, Swanwick and possibly Netley or Sholing. I agree though, 8 cars would be overkill. Will be interesting when more details do start to appear. Are there any plans to review the ASDO configuration? A fair few stations can comfortably have an extra carriage or possibly 2 released, and even then there's a few meters grace.

If they can release more carriages, why is it set so low. Wouldn't it make sense to make it the largest amount of carriages, regardless of whether that is needed? Is there much additional cost in making it the maximum number of carriages to start with?

 

[Olaf]

There is no indication that the contract has been signed so there is likely to be an unresolved problem.

 

[pompeyfan]

Isn't it still to be confirmed whether the existing service (the all stations stopper) or the new 'fast' service will go through to Weymouth? None of the announcements are clear about this do far.

IF the through service combined some of the worst aspects of the existing services for pathing reasons, (e.g. it could be semi fast to Southampton and then take over the Poole all stations calls west of Southampton), then this wonderful new Portsmouth to Weymouth might even include 20 mins sitting in Southampton Central and 35 mins sitting in Brockenhurst P1 doing nothing... roll:

Indeed i did think there was potential for the Portsmouth Weymouth service to pick up the Poole stopper calls, which would make travelling on the service directly end to end pointless, but it's not unheard of in similar circumstances. I think information regarding this is wanted soon, but I don't think it'll be forthcoming for a while.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Expect it to be Harbour, Southsea, Fratton, Cosham, Fareham and then Eastleigh where it'll pick up the current Poole stopper timings and extend to Weymouth. The signal spacing between St Denys and Fareham may not support five trains per hour as the sections are quite long.

 

[dctraindriver]

There is no indication that the contract has been signed so there is likely to be an unresolved problem.

Or the Easter holiday period got in the way.....

 

[30907]

London - Basingstoke - Winchester - Southampton was the LSWR's original main line. Over the years the line to Exeter gradually assumed more and more importance, but when express services to Exeter and places further West were concentrated on the Western Region route and regular expresses were withdrawn from the line to Exeter Central (1967 ??) the Southern Region told its staff "This [i.e. the line to Southampton] is our main line now".

The Southampton route was always the busier in terms of express services, however much prestige was attached to the Exeter route.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder if services like the 19.15 Waterloo to Southampton via Guildford or the 19.23 Waterloo to Hampton Court will remain. The later running fast to Surbtion. Selfishly I'd like a fast or semi fast service to Woking around that time from Surbiton. After the 18.40 Surbiton to Woking has left, there isn't a fast train or even semi fast one until 20.00. Then you get 4 an hour again.

Given First / MTR want to make this franchise quality, that would be something I think they could introduce. I can't believe the infrastructure can't support another service or two from Surbtion between 18.40 and 20.00. They have four between 17.00 and 18.40.

They might need rolling stock and crews for it but given they are getting more rolling stock and recasting parts of the timetable, it would be a good moment to introduce such a thing. It may not be in the ITT but I don't think toilets on every mainland train was in the ITT.

 

[Bob M]

Expect it to be Harbour, Southsea, Fratton, Cosham, Fareham and then Eastleigh where it'll pick up the current Poole stopper timings and extend to Weymouth. The signal spacing between St Denys and Fareham may not support five trains per hour as the sections are quite long.

But please, surely, they will try to get rid of the long layovers by the current down Poole stopper?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The 19.15 Waterloo to Southampton via Guildford is used for route knowledge purposes, just as the solitary XC service is.

The reverse working is the 1554 Havant to Waterloo is, that originates at Northam CSD.

 

[TEW]

The 19.15 Waterloo to Southampton via Guildford is used for route knowledge purposes, just as the solitary XC service is.

The reverse working is the 1554 Havant to Waterloo is, that originates at Northam CSD.

Plus the 1644 Fareham-London Waterloo via Guildford, and a couple of ECS movements too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't the above trains run in the normal paths between Waterloo and Haslemere (in either direction), so they'll become part of the 4 tph to Portsmouth new order?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No, they're timed differently as there are no fast trains from Portsmouth in the afternoon as they are all stopping services to pander to public schools along the route, I think that there maybe just two 1615 & 1715, the others are a hotchpotch of stops.

I've never known such an absolutely abysmal piece of rubbish of a timetable. Yet again those who live on the south coast having to pay lip service to those between Haslemere and Guildford. :roll:

 

[Olaf]

Or the Easter holiday period got in the way.....

The contract would normally be a formality at the end of the 10 day stand-off. The close-off date was the 10th so Easter was not the problem. Something raised by Stagecoach perhaps.

 

[Suraggu]

The contract would normally be a formality at the end of the 10 day stand-off. The close-off date was the 10th so Easter was not the problem. Something raised by Stagecoach perhaps.

No staff was updated with the usual no news bar the 10 day standstill period has been completed and First Group/MTR continue to discuss with Stagecoach over the transition in August.

 

[infobleep]

Don't the above trains run in the normal paths between Waterloo and Haslemere (in either direction), so they'll become part of the 4 tph to Portsmouth new order?

The 19.15 certainly does. Not sure about the others.

I'm sure there was a period when the 19.15 didn't go to Southampton. Anyway they can if they so wish, change the service to Southampton to be a different one. That's assuming it's possible with diagrams and so on.

Now I know it's to help retain route knowledge, perhaps less chance.

Still the 19.23 to Hampton Court can't surely be for route knowledge, so there's still a chance that might change in time. For those into timetabling, like myself, there will be interesting times ahead.

 

[infobleep]

No, they're timed differently as there are no fast trains from Portsmouth in the afternoon as they are all stopping services to pander to public schools along the route, I think that there maybe just two 1615 & 1715, the others are a hotchpotch of stops.

I've never known such an absolutely abysmal piece of rubbish of a timetable. Yet again those who live on the south coast having to pay lip service to those between Haslemere and Guildford. :roll:

There is a fast train to London but as it doesn't start from Portsmouth, one ends up on the slow service. I think the fast either starts from Havant or it might be the service from Fareham.

Aomey of these services actually stop at places like Rowlands Catsle too.

This issue only seems to occur going south before 7.30 or going north during the mid afternoon. It doesn't seem to occur going north in the early morning, although I admit some extra calls are made to some stations and nor does it occur heading south in the afternoon on all services.

 

[Goldfish62]

Some stations will not get the 4 tph service, it's the only way they can speed the service up, but none will get a reduced service compared to currently.

Martins Heron currently has all services calling, except one early morning Ascot to Reading positioning working. However the ITT only specified 2tph which suggests up to halving of the service in the peaks.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 19.15 certainly does. Not sure about the others.

I'm sure there was a period when the 19.15 didn't go to Southampton. Anyway they can if they so wish, change the service to Southampton to be a different one. That's assuming it's possible with diagrams and so on.

Now I know it's to help retain route knowledge, perhaps less chance.

Even if they don't run in the exact normal timings south of Guildford or Haslemere for the reasons given above, up trains must still be part of the 4 tph north of Haslemere, so if First Group are saying Portsmouth will get 4 tph "all day" I would then expect these odd ball Havant and Fareham starters to be diverted to or from Portsmouth. The fourth trains to/from Portsmouth every hour aren't likely to be providing any additional trains through Guidford or extra Waterloo arrivals and departures.

(Allowing for the fact that the service will change slightly very early and very late, at which time terminating at Havant or wherever may become more relevant.)

The up train that starts from Fareham used to start from Havant, and was and is an ECS from Northam depot. According to the track access application when it started a few years ago it was made a passenger service to help avoid misrouteing at Cosham Jn. Doesn't seem to have much to so with route learning to me, it's more like the only obvious ECS route rom the depot

 

[godfreycomplex]

Even if they don't run in the exact normal timings south of Guildford or Haslemere for the reasons given above, up trains must still be part of the 4 tph north of Haslemere, so if First Group are saying Portsmouth will get 4 tph "all day" I would then expect these odd ball Havant and Fareham starters to be diverted to or from Portsmouth. The fourth trains to/from Portsmouth every hour aren't likely to be providing any additional trains through Guidford or extra Waterloo arrivals and departures.

(Allowing for the fact that the service will change slightly very early and very late, at which time terminating at Havant or wherever may become more relevant.)

The up train that starts from Fareham used to start from Havant, and was and is an ECS from Northam depot. According to the track access application when it started a few years ago it was made a passenger service to help avoid misrouteing at Cosham Jn. Doesn't seem to have much to so with route learning to me, it's more like the only obvious ECS route rom the depot

That's a part of it, also it's a route refresher for the Northam driver (most of the other route learners are for the benefit of Bournemouth crew)

 

[swt_passenger]

That's a part of it, also it's a route refresher for the Northam driver (most of the other route learners are for the benefit of Bournemouth crew)

It's taking maximum advantage of a move that would have to happen anyway, is the way I'd probably look at it.

Does the guard still get picked up at Southampton Central, in which case starting it in service earlier from Fareham won't have affected crewing much at all.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 19.15 Waterloo to Southampton via Guildford is used for route knowledge purposes, just as the solitary XC service is.

The reverse working is the 1554 Havant to Waterloo is, that originates at Northam CSD.

The 1554 is a Fratton job, I think it's one that starts at Fareham that's a Bournemouth turn.

 

[swt_passenger]

Expect it to be Harbour, Southsea, Fratton, Cosham, Fareham and then Eastleigh where it'll pick up the current Poole stopper timings and extend to Weymouth. The signal spacing between St Denys and Fareham may not support five trains per hour as the sections are quite long.

In that scenario, Matt, what happens to the existing Waterloo to Poole service when it gets to Eastleigh?

Surely you can in theory run an extra train via Netley 6 or 7 mins ahead ahead of the Southern service from Victoria to Southampton?

However that would mean the extra fast train has to leave Portsmouth roughly on the half hour opposite the Southampton stopper, so wouldn't that be about the same time as the Waterloo via Eastleigh.

Problem is the two existing services provide a fairly well balanced half hourly service from Portsmouth and Southsea towards Fareham, and feeding a third "SW" service into the mix fouls things up a bit.

Also, would they want to operate the second fast service roughly half hourly compared to the Cardiff service as far as Southampton. People do seem to prefer 2 tph to be roughly half hourly if at all possible.

 

[Wookiee]

The signal spacing between St Denys and Fareham may not support five trains per hour as the sections are quite long.

Most (if not all) of the signals in that section are two-aspect, or at least they were the last time I looked - could things be improved by making them three-aspect?

 

[monsento]

read through a email going around the LSWR logo was indeed a fake to quote however nice it was, looks like it might be sometime before we hear anything concrete, i wonder if stagecoach will be more firm on removal of branding network wide as is swt is very stagecoach, do they have to do it or first?

some yellow line paint for the platforms would be place to start before the trains though, there is alot to change or make neutral, stairrails lifts station support poles, ticket machines, posters.
even the animations on the ticket machine themselves.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Most (if not all) of the signals in that section are two-aspect, or at least they were the last time I looked - could things be improved by making them three-aspect?

They are. The only 3 aspect signals over there are at Bitterne & Fareham, the one that protects Adelade level crossing, E800 & E811 (protects Fareham Junction) respectively if I remember correctly.

 

[swt_passenger]

...there is alot to change or make neutral, stairrails lifts station support poles, ticket machines, posters.
even the animations on the ticket machine themselves.

Never heard of an outgoing TOC having to neutralise station colour schemes, or handrails, station canopies etc.

There's a difference between 'branding' and a house colour scheme.

At least most of the station name boards are already neutral dark blue. (That was recommended to become a national scheme at one time, IIRC.)

 

[Muzer]

Most (if not all) of the signals in that section are two-aspect, or at least they were the last time I looked - could things be improved by making them three-aspect?

Just making it three aspect would be pointless - at the moment it's in the configuration of stop signals with associated distants/repeaters/whatever they're called; that is, two lots of two aspect signals in close succession. Making the main signals three aspect would be pointless as there's enough space between a main signal and the next distant along that it doesn't matter what the speed is.

What does need to be done though is the blocks split into smaller blocks, basically allowing more trains on the same stretch of line. That way a late-running fast service put behind a stopper won't have to wait for the stopper to make three different station calls before it can progress into the block at all.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Just making it three aspect would be pointless - at the moment it's in the configuration of stop signals with associated distants/repeaters/whatever they're called; that is, two lots of two aspect signals in close succession. Making the main signals three aspect would be pointless as there's enough space between a main signal and the next distant along that it doesn't matter what the speed is.

What does need to be done though is the blocks split into smaller blocks, basically allowing more trains on the same stretch of line. That way a late-running fast service put behind a stopper won't have to wait for the stopper to make three different station calls before it can progress into the block at all.

This is very true - however for that to happen it'll be re-signalling - which is unlikely to happen during this franchise on account of all the required resources being tied up with Feltham re-signalling.
However you're right that smaller sections are needed; the headways on the Netley line under the current signalling system are worse than under the previous absolute block system that was replaced in the early 80s (I'm told)