New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[GodAtum]

Does anyone think there might be a chance that the new TOC might introduce a 19.02 fast service from Guildford that stops at Clapham Junction. Most hours off peak three is an 02 and 34 services. However once the 18.34 service leaves, the next train isn't until 18.55, there being no 18.47 fast. The 18.55 skips Clapham Junction.

The next train is the 19.21 and that too skips Clapham Junction.

To reach Clapham Junction around this time, they recommend getting the 18.55 and waiting at Woking for the 19.22. The total journey time is 46 minutes. That's 15 minutes longer than a direct fast train and only 4 minutes slower than the stopping service. At lest it has loos.

Of course once the new franchise has its new rolling stock, even the metro services from Guildford will have loos so the mainline trains won't hold an advantage in that respect. I suspect that may make a different to which trains I use.

Cureenrlt I'm inclined to get trains with loos on. I will rush to catch the 23.45, following a gig at the O2, in order to avoid the final train with no loos. Be so nice when that is no longer the case.

Of course, going back to the 18.55, some might say there is the headway to stop at Clapham Junction. But if the 19.02 can, why can't the 18.55? Also the 18.17 from Waterloo never stopped at Clapham, despaired the 18.20 being over crowded for quite some years. Suddenly it is. Maybe the Exeter train has become even more crowded but I'd argue it was already crowded enough to justify stopping the 18.17 at Clapham Junction.

So if that can suddenly stop at Clapham Junction, surely the 18.55 could, even if it meant delayed the train behind it for an extra minute.

The reason for mentioning this now is that I wish to go to Tooting Broadway for 8pm and the best train to travel to get their for 8pm is on a fast train at aekund 19.00 and changing at Clapham Junction. Alas no such service exists then.

I hope they have the semi-fasts skipping Clapham stopping there. Particularly if there is disruption where passengers are forced to change at Waterloo, making it even more crowded.

 

[Goldfish62]

Whole page dedicated to it on the swt website found on the homepage ://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/plan-your-journey/planned-improvements/wswupgrade/

There are also countless banners at affected stations (coupled with stickers on doors and windows of much of the swt fleet warning the passengers) that will receive little or no service coupled with the planning and communication that staff are undertaking and receiving within swt.

The terminal only needs to be usable. It is well documented that it will close again to be finished properly ready for 1-24 usage from Dec 2018

If anyone is gullible enough to think that this blockade and works will not take place after the years of planning by network rail for hlos then perhaps they should go and visit a medical professional.

Presumably your final sentence would also apply to those at Modern Railways who thought it was worthy of reporting. After all, NR don't have an enviable track record at running large projects and have as anyone involved in any project will know there is always a strategy building in fir thing not going to be planned, irrespective of however many "years of planning".

Here's a photo of progress that I took yesterday :

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You cannot leave a train stabled at Waterloo all day Monday to Friday.

Although you would have been able to do so before the Waterloo International upheaval started.

But SpacePhoenix's suggestion was pretty ridiculous given the date for changeover is known to be right in the middle of the Waterloo alterations, when it is already known that 8 platforms are out of action and a massively reduced timetable is running...

Where does anyone say that the unveiling will be done somewhere between Monday and Friday?:roll:

It could just as easily be done on a Sunday, which is probably more likely as there'll be less services running anyway.

or will it happen at another station (would probably have to be one that could handle a launch train or 2 parked up all day for the press to look at)?

:roll:

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Could they spare a train for a month? If so could they just park it in one of the 8 platforms that will be out of service but are not themselves being altered? If I understand it correctly 8 platforms will be out of service due to the point work leading to them being changed but only 4 of the platforms are actually being altered.

 

[pompeyfan]

As far as I can tell the company believe the works are going ahead, amended timetables are on NRE/RTT, rosters are in the final stages of being suspended, train planning have already worked out diagrams and 'soft' allocations.

 

[Busaholic]

What are the chances of SW Trains getting to Penzance again, like they used to do on Sundays? I'd be far more inclined to travel by train to London if I could get one to Waterloo, because the journey for me from Paddington to my destination in South London is tedious and time-consuming in the extreme, whereas one bus from Waterloo gets me (almost) there.

 

[pompeyfan]

What are the chances of SW Trains getting to Penzance again, like they used to do on Sundays? I'd be far more inclined to travel by train to London if I could get one to Waterloo, because the journey for me from Paddington to my destination in South London is tedious and time-consuming in the extreme, whereas one bus from Waterloo gets me (almost) there.

Very unlikely, it's not a franchise requirement and there's not really any benefit for them to do so. Could you not just change at Exeter?

Talking of the above service, wasn't it crewed by Wessex/FGW to Exeter? I think they also did a Portsmouth/Brighton service reversing at Westbury? There's lots of services I'd like to see come back, and a couple of new ones but there's no point in train companies running services if there isn't the demand or paths or if it means other services have to be shortened. (Bring back Brighton - Reading fasts! And a new Portsmouth - Reading fast)

 

[louis97]

So if that can suddenly stop at Clapham Junction, surely the 18.55 could, even if it meant delayed the train behind it for an extra minute.

It isn't quite as simple as adding extra time into the service behind, particularly in the London direction. Adding a Clapham stop onto the 1855 adds over a minute onto both its own schedule, plus a number of trains behind.

At present the 1855 arrives into Waterloo at xx29, this gets it into its booked platform before the conflicting xx30 departure. The train behind arrives into Waterloo at xx34, 4 minutes after the conflicting xx30 departure, but into the station ahead of the conflicting xx35 departure. The train behind stops at Clapham, however does not stop at Woking.

Ideally, if you could, you'd move the 1855 to 1900 off Guildford, having it in its usual clockface path which allows for a Clapham stop, that is assuming this fits into the timetable particularly at Woking Junction, Waterloo and for its booked return working.

 

[swt_passenger]

What are the chances of SW Trains getting to Penzance again, like they used to do on Sundays? I'd be far more inclined to travel by train to London if I could get one to Waterloo, because the journey for me from Paddington to my destination in South London is tedious and time-consuming in the extreme, whereas one bus from Waterloo gets me (almost) there.

Minimal. SW were withdrawn beyond Exeter in the fist place to provide stock for the hourly service on the main route. But more importantly GWR are required to operate more Penzance - Exeter services already, in their own franchise spec.

 

[Busaholic]

Minimal. SW were withdrawn beyond Exeter in the fist place to provide stock for the hourly service on the main route. But more importantly GWR are required to operate more Penzance - Exeter services already, in their own franchise spec.

Thanks for the answers. I was living more in hope than expectation, but we'll see. What if providing more Penzance to Exeter services could dovetail with SWT (at times) to provide 'efficiency savings' i.e. save a unit?

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for the answers. I was living more in hope than expectation, but we'll see. What if providing more Penzance to Exeter services could dovetail with SWT (at times) to provide 'efficiency savings' i.e. save a unit?

Would not south London destined pax be generally better off changing at Reading rather than onto the 'stop at all barns' SWT at Exeter?

 

[brtom]

Would not south London destined pax be generally better off changing at Reading rather than onto the 'stop at all barns' SWT at Exeter?

You'd be quicker taking the tube between Padding and Waterloo cos the reading line train is itself a stopper.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[3141]

Very unlikely, it's not a franchise requirement and there's not really any benefit for them to do so. Could you not just change at Exeter?

Talking of the above service, wasn't it crewed by Wessex/FGW to Exeter? I think they also did a Portsmouth/Brighton service reversing at Westbury? )

I don't recall an SWT reversal at Westbury, though I think there was a Wessex service that did that. I do remember travelling on a summer Sunday in about 2005, when 6 coaches arrived at Exeter from Paignton, well-filled with passengers, and at Salisbury this train split, with the rear three coaches continuing to Portsmouth, while the front three coupled onto three more that were waiting in the platform, providing a six-coach train to Waterloo.

 

[pompeyfan]

I don't recall an SWT reversal at Westbury, though I think there was a Wessex service that did that. I do remember travelling on a summer Sunday in about 2005, when 6 coaches arrived at Exeter from Paignton, well-filled with passengers, and at Salisbury this train split, with the rear three coaches continuing to Portsmouth, while the front three coupled onto three more that were waiting in the platform, providing a six-coach train to Waterloo.

Ah I think I might be getting confused then? I routinely remember seeing a Brighton - Paignton service formed of 6 coaches on a Saturday morning, it reversed at Southsea and only called at Fratton on its 'up' journey. I love stumbling across Facebook groups with old ( as in late 90's early 00's) pictures of services that no longer exist.

Back on track, it would appear the MTR staff FAQ has been updated again, quite a few specific question being asked, still no news on if this new Portsmouth - Weymouth train will see Dorset lose 1 train an hour to London though.

 

[Ianno87]

Could they spare a train for a month? If so could they just park it in one of the 8 platforms that will be out of service but are not themselves being altered? If I understand it correctly 8 platforms will be out of service due to the point work leading to them being changed but only 4 of the platforms are actually being altered.

They may however still fall within the formal possession area, ergo you can't just leave a random train in there. Plus the platform surfaces themselves could be being used for materials storage, etc.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They may however still fall within the formal possession area, ergo you can't just leave a random train in there. Plus the platform surfaces themselves could be being used for materials storage, etc.

Bournemouth might be a possibility instead, if Waterloo isn't viable. I believe the track formation allows a train in the down platform to cross over to the up by the carriage sidings and then cross back to the down after the carriage sidings. The western end of the down platform could be used for the brand launch.

 

[Wookiee]

Bring back Brighton - Reading fasts! And a new Portsmouth - Reading fast

Amen!

 

[Wookiee]

Has there been any news on whether or not First/MTR are going to honour the SWT weekend freebies for Gold Card holders yet?

 

[hwl]

Could they spare a train for a month? If so could they just park it in one of the 8 platforms that will be out of service but are not themselves being altered? If I understand it correctly 8 platforms will be out of service due to the point work leading to them being changed but only 4 of the platforms are actually being altered.

P5, 6 & 7 are also too short for 12 car so the P5/6 and P7/8 islands are also getting lenghtened to 12 car (12 x20m) to improve flexibility with platforming on the fasts as well... (Easier to find somewhere for 3x 450 and gives more flexibility in sequences of arrivals and departures to maximise parallel moves)

Current 20m car working lengths:
5 10 car
6 11 car (but 10x 23m)
7 11 car (but 10x 23m)

 

[swt_passenger]

P5, 6 & 7 are also too short for 12 car so the P5/6 and P7/8 islands are also getting lenghtened to 12 car (12 x20m) to improve flexibility with platforming on the fasts as well... (Easier to find somewhere for 3x 450 and gives more flexibility in sequences of arrivals and departures to maximise parallel moves)

Current 20m car working lengths:
5 10 car
6 11 car (but 10x 23m)
7 11 car (but 10x 23m)

There are conflicting descriptions of the works on the suburban side though. The March 2017 CP5 enhancements milestones included this description:

Scope of works
The provision of infrastructure to support 10 car suburban services consists of’
• lengthening platforms 1-4
• shortening platforms 5-6
• narrowing the country end of platforms 7-8
• associated track signalling and power at Waterloo

It would be good to know exactly what they intend doing. That isn't intended as criticism of your description, just to say that there are different versions...

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

OK thank you both , so it appears they will be working on all 8 platforms one way or another.

 

[infobleep]

It isn't quite as simple as adding extra time into the service behind, particularly in the London direction. Adding a Clapham stop onto the 1855 adds over a minute onto both its own schedule, plus a number of trains behind.

At present the 1855 arrives into Waterloo at xx29, this gets it into its booked platform before the conflicting xx30 departure. The train behind arrives into Waterloo at xx34, 4 minutes after the conflicting xx30 departure, but into the station ahead of the conflicting xx35 departure. The train behind stops at Clapham, however does not stop at Woking.

Ideally, if you could, you'd move the 1855 to 1900 off Guildford, having it in its usual clockface path which allows for a Clapham stop, that is assuming this fits into the timetable particularly at Woking Junction, Waterloo and for its booked return working.

I'd be happy for the 18.55 to be it's usual booked path. I wonder what stops it from being so.

There is an 18.59 Newcastle arrival that uses platform 5. A Redhill train departs platform 6 at 18.54. If the Newcastle train could use platform 6, couldn't the 18.55 wait another 5 minutes until 19.00, leaving at the same on the hour time slot the 18.00 leaves.

Alternatively could the 18.55 wait another 5 minutes at Haslemere or simply add an extra minute at various stations on route if they don't wish to have it in one large block.

And to think First / MTR want to add in additional services. I wonder if they will manage this around 18.55.

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[swt_passenger]

I'd be happy for the 18.55 to be it's usual booked path. I wonder what stops it from being so.

There is an 18.59 Newcastle arrival that uses platform 5. A Redhill train departs platform 6 at 18.54.

That Newcastle XC arrival should finish this year.

 

[pompeyfan]

That Newcastle XC arrival should finish this year.

Surely though that empty run will still happen in/around the same path for diversion reasons? I know Laverstock is quicker/easier though.

 

[Pumbaa]

OK thank you both , so it appears they will be working on all 8 platforms one way or another.

1-6 become 200m platforms, everything else above 240.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely though that empty run will still happen in/around the same path for diversion reasons? I know Laverstock is quicker/easier though.

We don't know yet do we? They don't necessarily have to maintain route knowledge by running their own trains, as has been mentioned before, and they also wouldn't necessarily need to run via Guildford and Havant every day.

There certainly aren't daily up and down ECS services via Andover at the moment, all I can find is one up train on a Sunday.

 

[swt_passenger]

1-6 become 200m platforms, everything else above 240.

Is that basically because in the final 24 platform station 1-6 will all be used by inner suburban services all day; I think it has been pointed out that the new S&C requires more platforms for the same throughput of trains.

Hence the normal usage by main fast services moves over to the right a bit as viewed from the concourse; and a 12.450 or 10.444 (or even 10.158/9) should not normally ever need to use P1-P6?

I'm sure I once saw a list in a rail mag, and I think it suggested main fast EMUs would use an expanded platform group, possibly something like P8-P18.

As a supplementary question, will the final platforming plan allow for more DMU services to run as 9 or 10 car?

 

[Suraggu]

Is that basically because in the final 24 platform station 1-6 will all be used by inner suburban services all day; I think it has been pointed out that the new S&C requires more platforms for the same throughput of trains.

Hence the normal usage by main fast services moves over to the right a bit as viewed from the concourse; and a 12.450 or 10.444 (or even 10.158/9) should not normally ever need to use P1-P6?

I'm sure I once saw a list in a rail mag, and I think it suggested main fast EMUs would use an expanded platform group, possibly something like P8-P18.

As a supplementary question, will the final platforming plan allow for more DMU services to run as 9 or 10 car?

I guess there is scope to allow 3x tph for DMU services but I don't think that would be on the cards for some considerable time. But you would think that it has been implemented into the capacity upgrade.

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess there is scope to allow 3x tph for DMU services but I don't think that would be on the cards for some considerable time. But you would think that it has been implemented into the capacity upgrade.

I wasn't actually thinking of more services, just running a few more at maximum length in the peaks, i.e. 10 car.

At the moment the CWNs show Salisbury/Exeter trains operating from any of 5-7, and 9-11, and they presumably are not all 10 car length for DMUs now, so there may be a restriction (perhaps to 8 cars) e.g. if P5 has to be used. From what Pumbaa has written, and my belief about P1-6 all being used by main suburban services all day, I suspect all DMU services will operate from 240m platforms by default.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There's a speed restriction at Waterloo coming out of one or two of the lower numbered platforms for 158/159 sets of 10 mph instead of 15, iirc this is due to the couplers on them sometimes losing electrical connectivity and of course puts the brake into emergency.