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New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

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swt_passenger

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From the post above:

at least 95 additional services on weekdays from December 2018
•a doubling of services along the London Waterloo to Reading and Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside routes from 2 to 4 trains an hour

95 single services so about 48 extra return services. An extra 2 tph to Reading, and an extra 2 tph to Windsor, for the majority of the day, will provide the vast majority of that number.
 
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Midmat

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Seems some significant reduction in journey times on surburban routes proposed from 2020? Reverses SWT cushions and some. Examples on main suburban:

Hampton Court - Waterloo: currently c.40 minutes, proposed 33mins
Shepperton - Waterloo: currently c.55mins, proposed 48mins
Strawberry Hill - Waterloo: currently c.44mins, proposed 34mins

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment-a-part3-journey-time-requirements.xlsx

There might be some pathing allowances which the bidder may be able to add on top but is quite significant differences. There is a reference to reducing dwell times (5.8.3) but not sure how the proposed times are achievable...

Am I missing something?
 

pemma

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If extra services are included they can skip more stops than existing services and allow some services to be faster. The headline journey times usually only apply to some services not all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
i.e. 3 days a week or two days a week across flexible days.

I think the easiest way to implement it though would be something like you pay a price and get a set number of journeys between two points (e.g. 150 returns) that you can use whenever you want for a year. Tocs assume a normal season ticket will be used around 300 times a year.

300 times?! That would be the equivalent of using it every Mon to Fri including Bank Holidays plus one day at the weekend around 3 times per month. Have they not heard of legal holiday requirements for full time workers?
 

Midmat

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If extra services are included they can skip more stops than existing services and allow some services to be faster. The headline journey times usually only apply to some services not all.

All the services for the proposed times quoted are all stations stopping, doesn't seem to be any proposed changes to them (e.g. skip stopping) at any time of the day.
 

Class 170101

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i.e. 3 days a week or two days a week across flexible days.

I think the easiest way to implement it though would be something like you pay a price and get a set number of journeys between two points (e.g. 150 returns) that you can use whenever you want for a year. Tocs assume a normal season ticket will be used around 300 times a year.

I think its nearer 40 weeks for five days a week so 200 days per year.

I would be interested to know though how weekends would be included in a part time season ticket which is technically free on a full time season.
 

JamesRowden

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Seems some significant reduction in journey times on surburban routes proposed from 2020? Reverses SWT cushions and some. Examples on main suburban:

Hampton Court - Waterloo: currently c.40 minutes, proposed 33mins
Shepperton - Waterloo: currently c.55mins, proposed 48mins
Strawberry Hill - Waterloo: currently c.44mins, proposed 34mins

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment-a-part3-journey-time-requirements.xlsx

There might be some pathing allowances which the bidder may be able to add on top but is quite significant differences. There is a reference to reducing dwell times (5.8.3) but not sure how the proposed times are achievable...

Am I missing something?

Just checked the service provision document.

There will be a 4tph peak service between Strawberry Hill and Waterloo via Richmond formed of:
  • 2tph (All Day) Kingston Loop, stopping service
  • 2tph (Peak Only) Shepperton, only has to call at Twickenham, Richmond and Clapham Junction (between Strawberry Hill and Waterloo)
This explains how the improved journey times between Waterloo and Strawberry Hill and Shepperton will be produced.

I can't see anything to improve the Hampton Court to Waterloo times. An every 30mins stopping service is shown as having to operate all day. Perhaps the writer was told to take a certain time off the Hampton to Waterloo journey time (because of the fast peak Shepperton services), and took it off the Hampton Court to Waterloo journey time instead?
 
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JonathanH

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From the post above:

at least 95 additional services on weekdays from December 2018
•a doubling of services along the London Waterloo to Reading and Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside routes from 2 to 4 trains an hour

95 single services so about 48 extra return services. An extra 2 tph to Reading, and an extra 2 tph to Windsor, for the majority of the day, will provide the vast majority of that number.

Have they found some solution to the level crossing issues (other than Feltham)? ie Barnes, Mortlake, Pooley Green, Egham, Sunningdale, Star Lane, Wokingham, Datchet etc?
 

JamesRowden

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Have they found some solution to the level crossing issues (other than Feltham)? ie Barnes, Mortlake, Pooley Green, Egham, Sunningdale, Star Lane, Wokingham, Datchet etc?

I think that Airtrack might have required 6tph during the peak between Ascot and Staines rather than the minimum of 4tph in the ITT for this new franchise (which is the same as the present peak service level).

Also, perhaps doubling the off-peak rail service to Waterloo from the stations with level crossings is a sufficient bribe to allow the improved services to be forced through without making a political loss. The Airtrack services were proposed to run to Heathrow (not so useful for people on the line) and proposed to run semi-fast through places with level crossings, where as the planned extra Waterloo services have to run all stations between Ascot and Staines to increase the frequency from 2tph to 4tph off-peak.

The minimum peak service level for Ascot-Staines for the new franchise is the same as the present peak service. Although, the Wessex Route Study showed that another 2tph would be possible between Ascot and Waterloo by the end of CP5. The document showed the potential additional services as 2tph all day between Aldershot and Waterloo via Ascot (which presently runs 1tph peak only). The ITT does not make this service a requirement of the new franchise, but there is nothing stopping a bidder volunteering to run it in addition to the required services.
 
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hwl

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Explict DOO etc references:

5.8.33

e) Initiatives to improve train service operations in ways that will generate long-term passenger benefits or operational improvements that will continue to accrue after the end of the Franchise Term. This could include the implementation of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). Where DCO is proposed, the Department would require the franchisee to undertake appropriate consultation (with passengers and the workforce) including about supporting the continual development of the professional skills of on-train staff, in particular in relation to the on-board customer service passengers attach most value to.


5.9.10
Any new-build rolling stock must be fitted with the equipment necessary to enable the trains to be operated in Driver Only Operation (DOO) in Passenger mode.
 

ainsworth74

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This thread is not for discussing the advantages or disadvantages of DOO. Any further such posts are liable for deletion as being off-topic.
 

infobleep

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Explict DOO etc references:
The word is could not must at least. I don't wish to discuss anything about DOO but it's a point I wanted to highlight.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why are they persisting with still running the Monday morning only 0.50am service from Waterloo to Portsmouth but not running a similar one on Friday nights?

If I ever want to go out in Camden on a Friday night it is impossible to get home. Getting back from the O2 after seeing Paul McCartney only. Occurred because I saw him on the Sunday night and not the Saturday night.

Not everyone owns a vat and / or wants to drive onto London for a night out.

I understand they may need to do works on Sunday morning, so it may not be possible then. However there are multiple ways to reach Guildford. Via Cobham, Epsom and Woking. To get to Woking three are two routes. Then is even via Aldershot.

I admit these are just minimums so is their an incentive to improve upon these?

I assume. I'm reading the documents correctly of course.

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swt_passenger

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Why are they persisting with still running the Monday morning only 0.50am service from Waterloo to Portsmouth but not running a similar one on Friday nights?

IIRC it is a fairly long standing service designed for Naval personnel returning to Portsmouth after the weekend. They aren't returning on Saturday mornings...
 

infobleep

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IIRC it is a fairly long standing service designed for Naval personnel returning to Portsmouth after the weekend. They aren't returning on Saturday mornings...
I know but with government cuts, you'd think they wouldn't still want to fund such a service.

It can't be cheap to fund. How busy is such a train? I've only been on it a few times at most I don't remember it being packed. Not as packed as I'm sure a Friday night train might be. Or am I wrong about that and just biased because I might like a later Friday night train myself at times.

I was hoping this next franchise document might lead to such a service as that on other nights of the week. I mea they run a 1.10 to Bournemouth every might of the week and I don't think that is 4 track all the way to Bournemouth, although it might be for all I know. It is part of the way.

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bb21

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I was hoping this next franchise document might lead to such a service as that on other nights of the week. I mea they run a 1.10 to Bournemouth every might of the week and I don't think that is 4 track all the way to Bournemouth, although it might be for all I know. It is part of the way.

There is no 0110 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0005 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0105 to Southampton, which is liable to be curtailed at Basingstoke depending on possession works, and sent all over the places in the suburbs.
 

fgwrich

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There is no 0110 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0005 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0105 to Southampton, which is liable to be curtailed at Basingstoke depending on possession works, and sent all over the places in the suburbs.

And it remains a very busy service. I used it a few weeks ago on a Thursday night with an 8 car 450 (unusually departing from Waterloo's Platform 1 - the NSE launch platform) and it was full with a few standees - bearing in mind I was in the front coach as well, to have people even standing or sitting on the floor, shows how well used and popular this service is. I'm not sure what it's booked to run with, but It now usually ends up being ran with a pair of 450s or 444.

It can also be subject to running via a variety of routes - via the Windsor lines & District to Wimbledon, Via Staines Upon Thames and Virginia Water to Woking, Via Epsom and Guildford (reverse to Woking), down the mainline at full speed, via the mainline and reduced speed - reversible working (or Bang Road) from Woking to Basingstoke, through to Eastleigh or Southampton or Terminating at Basingstoke and bus replacement to Southampton Central - or a combination of the above.
 
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infobleep

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There is no 0110 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0005 to Bournemouth.

There is a 0105 to Southampton, which is liable to be curtailed at Basingstoke depending on possession works, and sent all over the places in the suburbs.
Sorry I was doing it from memory. Is it four tracks all the way to Southampton or two tracks beyond Basingstoke.

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fgwrich

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Sorry I was doing it from memory. Is it four tracks all the way to Southampton or two tracks beyond Basingstoke.

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Four tracks to Worting Junction - West of Basingstoke. 2 tracks to Shawford, then briefly 4 through to Eastleigh, 3 to Airport Parkway, 2 to St Denys where it pans out to 4 after the junction (depending on if you include the loops) and 2 back to Southampton Central.
 

infobleep

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And it remains a very busy service. I used it a few weeks ago on a Thursday night with an 8 car 450 (unusually departing from Waterloo's Platform 1 - the NSE launch platform) and it was full with a few standees - bearing in mind I was in the front coach as well, to have people even standing or sitting on the floor, shows how well used and popular this service is. I'm not sure what it's booked to run with, but It now usually ends up being ran with a pair of 450s or 444.

It can also be subject to running via a variety of routes - via the Windsor lines & District to Wimbledon, Via Staines Upon Thames and Virginia Water to Woking, Via Epsom and Guildford (reverse to Woking), down the mainline at full speed, via the mainline and reduced speed - reversible working (or Bang Road) from Woking to Basingstoke, through to Eastleigh or Southampton or Terminating at Basingstoke and bus replacement to Southampton Central - or a combination of the above.
Is Southampton a more popular destination than Portsmouth when it comes to people travelling?

If that is full then wouldn't a train to Portsmouth also be full or is the Portsmouth line quieter?

Bear in mind I'm talking about changes in place for a new franchise, rather than an existing one with rolling stock constraints. Not saying constraints don't exist going forward, just that with a new franchise, it's possible to agree things that wouldn't happen mid franchise. For example switching to delay repay rather than keeping the older format of compensation.

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Bald Rick

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Bear in mind I'm talking about changes in place for a new franchise, rather than an existing one with rolling stock constraints. Not saying constraints don't exist going forward, just that with a new franchise, it's possible to agree things that wouldn't happen mid franchise. For example switching to delay repay rather than keeping the older format of compensation.

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It is possible to agree anything mid franchise. However for the DfT it is broadly the equivalent process of walking into a second hand car dealership, suggesting that you want that car on the forecourt - and only that car. You will never get a good deal!
 

bb21

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And it remains a very busy service. I used it a few weeks ago on a Thursday night with an 8 car 450 (unusually departing from Waterloo's Platform 1 - the NSE launch platform) and it was full with a few standees - bearing in mind I was in the front coach as well, to have people even standing or sitting on the floor, shows how well used and popular this service is. I'm not sure what it's booked to run with, but It now usually ends up being ran with a pair of 450s or 444.

Tends to thin out after Woking ime. After Basingstoke usually only a handful remains.

It's been busy Friday nights for years. Wedged 8-450s are a common sight since as far back as I can remember. Other nights much quieter, but Thursday seems to have become the new Friday in many areas in terms of going out from what I have seen.
 

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The 01.05 to Southampton is scheduled to run via Putney and Wimbledon. That is to allow track maintenance as appropriate and to maintain driver route knowledge for track possessions during weekends. Longer diversions obviously happen occasionally when they want to close the tracks overnight between Wimbledon and Weybridge.

It's really annoying as it slows the service down just when all the passengers want is to get home as soon as possible!

In my experience, it's always well used, as has been acknowledged by SWT in interviews.
 

infobleep

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The 01.05 to Southampton is scheduled to run via Putney and Wimbledon. That is to allow track maintenance as appropriate and to maintain driver route knowledge for track possessions during weekends. Longer diversions obviously happen occasionally when they want to close the tracks overnight between Wimbledon and Weybridge.

It's really annoying as it slows the service down just when all the passengers want is to get home as soon as possible!

In my experience, it's always well used, as has been acknowledged by SWT in interviews.
The question is, would a 0.50 to Portsmouth be as popular? Could South West Trains make money from it to fund it's apparence.

Do they make enough money from the 1.05 for that to run, irrespective of whether it's a franchise requirement or not. I say this because if that means enough to support itself, could a 0.50 to Portsmouth.

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fgwrich

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Tends to thin out after Woking ime. After Basingstoke usually only a handful remains.

It's been busy Friday nights for years. Wedged 8-450s are a common sight since as far back as I can remember. Other nights much quieter, but Thursday seems to have become the new Friday in many areas in terms of going out from what I have seen.

I think it varies on nights and what's going on in London that evening - Farnborough was when I find it really starts to thin out, with a good proportion coming off here in Basingstoke. Even so, it still seems to run with a reasonable load westwards, and I for one am glad that such a service still exists.

The 01.05 to Southampton is scheduled to run via Putney and Wimbledon. That is to allow track maintenance as appropriate and to maintain driver route knowledge for track possessions during weekends. Longer diversions obviously happen occasionally when they want to close the tracks overnight between Wimbledon and Weybridge.

It's really annoying as it slows the service down just when all the passengers want is to get home as soon as possible!

In my experience, it's always well used, as has been acknowledged by SWT in interviews.

True - I've once had it run from the far platform on the Windsor side of Waterloo before, up to Putney, down to Wimbledon, Mainline to Raynes Park, then down to Epsom / Effingham / Guildford, reverse to Woking, then on the up slow reversible working between Woking and Basingstoke. While interesting, I wasn't expecting to leave London Waterloo and be seeing the sunrise & milkman when I arrived home!

Does seem more often than not (in the past year or so and times when I've used the 01:05) to run straight down the mainline these days, mostly the slow lines - You know because you can feel the difference in ride quality on a Desiro between the Slows and the Fasts.
 

clagmonster

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i.e. 3 days a week or two days a week across flexible days.

I think the easiest way to implement it though would be something like you pay a price and get a set number of journeys between two points (e.g. 150 returns) that you can use whenever you want for a year. Tocs assume a normal season ticket will be used around 300 times a year.
There are already 3 day a week seasons on the Western Region. An example is below: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EXD&dest=EXT&rte=140&tkt=PSS
They are available in any combination of the 3 weekdays and all include weekends. The fare is the same for any combination of 3 days. For this flow, the base rate for the 3 day a week solution is £3.50, for the regular season £5.70.

I suppose the other way would be a carnet or some form of ITSO solution.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Well as old school all I can see is no real marked improvements at all from when I first started.

Waterloo - Guildford via either WK or C was 50' and last call Wimbledon.
Waterloo - Dorking was 40' and Chessington 30' dead.

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the so called mainline "fast" services.

They need serious improvements on:

Waterloo - Portsmouth via Guildford as it used to be about 80', with calls at Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Southsea & Harbour, I managed to do one in just 66' Guildford - Havant, Southsea & Harbour.

They really should worry about the times there because the Hindhead tunnel gives you a car journey time of about 40' from Guildford to Portsmouth.

Waterloo - Bournemouth & Weymouth need to be reduced back to where they were in the 80's again to be competitive. As does the WoE line.
 

The Ham

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The question is, would a 0.50 to Portsmouth be as popular? Could South West Trains make money from it to fund it's apparence.

Do they make enough money from the 1.05 for that to run, irrespective of whether it's a franchise requirement or not. I say this because if that means enough to support itself, could a 0.50 to Portsmouth.

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Could SWT, test the market for a late Portsmouth service by splitting the Southampton service at Eastleigh. As that would at least minimise the costs and amount of track that they have to keep open.

Obviously it wouldn't bring all the benefits of the more direct service, but people would rather use a service that takes hours than wait until the morning, especially when it's cold and/wet.
 

infobleep

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Well as old school all I can see is no real marked improvements at all from when I first started.

Waterloo - Guildford via either WK or C was 50' and last call Wimbledon.
Waterloo - Dorking was 40' and Chessington 30' dead.

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the so called mainline "fast" services.

They need serious improvements on:

Waterloo - Portsmouth via Guildford as it used to be about 80', with calls at Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Southsea & Harbour, I managed to do one in just 66' Guildford - Havant, Southsea & Harbour.

They really should worry about the times there because the Hindhead tunnel gives you a car journey time of about 40' from Guildford to Portsmouth.

Waterloo - Bournemouth & Weymouth need to be reduced back to where they were in the 80's again to be competitive. As does the WoE line.
Surely they can't do that with removing stops.... Like that's going to happen.

It would be nice to have faster services heading south in the morning, rather than just the all stations stoppers. Again in the evening it would be nice to have faster services. There's a period where from Portsmouth you just get all station stoppers before the fasts resume once more.

May be the evening service could be every 30 minutes from places like Godalming like it is on the Alton line. Of course the latter may be overkill vers passenger numbers so I'd conceed that one.

One I'd less wish to conceed though is the lack of services from Surbiton to Alton. After the 16.41 there isn't another until 20.11. Then it's every half an hour again. Basingstoke gets one semi fast services at 17.00, a fast at 17.39 and 18.40 and then nothing until 20.00 and then it magically becomes half an hour gaps again. Do more people really want to travel after 20.00 or is it just infrastructure issues?

In the morning there is one at 5.42 and the next one isn't until 8.44, although the 8.14, with a change at Brookwood isn't much slower. The rest in between though are 20 minutes slower.

Basingstoke fares better again in the morning than Basinw and although there might not be direct services one can get fast services from Basingstoke to Woking, which partly offset the additional time spent on the stoppers from Woking to Surbiton.

Of course Woking passengers would really love services that stopped at Clapham Junction in the morning. I know someone who works in Kew and they leave on the last train to stop at Clapham Junction. Miss that and they have to get additional ticket to get to Waterloo and back out again to Clapham Junction or get a stopper to Surbiton and another to Clapham Junction. I also assume if it's cancelled they do similar but in that case it might be that they would be allowed in and out, given its not their fault the service was cancelled.

Of course a lot of what I talk about requires infrastructure changes. If you don't get that then nothing much can be done. So I'd be surprised if much of the above happened for that reason.

One day though it will.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could SWT, test the market for a late Portsmouth service by splitting the Southampton service at Eastleigh. As that would at least minimise the costs and amount of track that they have to keep open.

Obviously it wouldn't bring all the benefits of the more direct service, but people would rather use a service that takes hours than wait until the morning, especially when it's cold and/wet.
The issue is that people living in Guildford, Haslemere and Petersfield would miss out. They don't on a Sunday might.

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SpacePhoenix

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Which of the current Waterloo-Weymouth services would have been at one time the Brokenhurst-Wareham service?
 

The Ham

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The issue is that people living in Guildford, Haslemere and Petersfield would miss out. They don't on a Sunday might.

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I am aware that it wouldn't benefit stations along the line through Guildford, hence my comment about it not having the same benefits as a more direct service.

Depending on loadings having it divide at Woking could mean having to run it as 12 coaches out of London, whilst splitting at Eastleigh could keep it as 8 coaches. Now obviously if there is enough demand either could be worth doing, however a trail splitting at Eastleigh is likely to be cheaper to do.
 

infobleep

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I am aware that it wouldn't benefit stations along the line through Guildford, hence my comment about it not having the same benefits as a more direct service.

Depending on loadings having it divide at Woking could mean having to run it as 12 coaches out of London, whilst splitting at Eastleigh could keep it as 8 coaches. Now obviously if there is enough demand either could be worth doing, however a trail splitting at Eastleigh is likely to be cheaper to do.
The question is, do most passengers returning from London solely want to go to Portsmouth or is their not enough solely for Havant and stations below to Portsmouth but their would be a enough if Petersfield, Haslemere and Guildford werre included?

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