New trains cab ends not painted yellow.

[Intercity Guy]

Does anyone know why new stock such as Class 196, 197 don't have their cab ends in yellow like most other trains across the country?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Does anyone know why new stock such as Class 196, 197 don't have their cab ends in yellow like most other trains across the country?

I believe the requirement for yellow ends is exempt to trains with three high intensity headlights? The standard was reviewed a few years ago in the light (sorry ) of advances in LED technology.

 

[Harvey B]

Does anyone know why new stock such as Class 196, 197 don't have their cab ends in yellow like most other trains across the country?

I believe it's because there was a law in place that mandated Cab ends to be yellow. That law was repealed about 5 or 6 years ago

 

[Intercity Guy]

Shame, to me yellow looks better.

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know why new stock such as Class 196, 197 don't have their cab ends in yellow like most other trains across the country?

If the headlights are compliant to new standards, then yellow warning panels aren't required.

 

[southern442]

Shame, to me yellow looks better.

There is something very 'british' about having yellow ends, although I really cannot imagine them looking at all good on, say, the class 345.

 

[physics34]

Shame, to me yellow looks better.

As a driver i have to say getting rid of yellow ends is a poor decision. The familiarity of seeing that big blob of yellow in the distance outweighs anything cosmetic. During the day headlights dont really have the same effect.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the headlights are compliant to new standards, then yellow warning panels aren't required.

Aren't there exceptions to this? Seem to recall that the reason Greater Anglia 755s still have yellow ends was something to do with the large number of level crossings in that region?

 

[hexagon789]

Aren't there exceptions to this? Seem to recall that the reason Greater Anglia 755s still have yellow ends was something to do with the large number of level crossings in that region?

Not sure about that, but the point on 755s you raise sounds familiar, yes, but I don't whether it is actually the case or simply a rumour and GA may then have kept the yellow for aesthetics etc as a few other TOCs have.

 

[irish_rail]

As a driver i have to say getting rid of yellow ends is a poor decision. The familiarity of seeing that big blob of yellow in the distance outweighs anything cosmetic. During the day headlights dont really have the same effect.

Seconded. I also find there can be quite a glare when the sun reflects off shiny black fronts of Crossrail stuff. Yellow brings a nice uniformity that the current setup is lacking. Maybe if Labour do renationalise they will introduce set liveries and hopefully plump for yellow fronts!

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe it's because there was a law in place that mandated Cab ends to be yellow. That law was repealed about 5 or 6 years ago

It wasn’t a “law”, it was a railway “group standard”. There was never a requirement for full yellow ends anyway, just a 1 square metre panel, with a minimum dimension of 0.6m. Many yellow areas were a livery designers choice, not an actual requirement.

The change was introduced about 10 years ago by rewriting the relevant standard, as already said it relies on the headlight type. It then took a few years before the first stock appeared without yellow.

 

[theageofthetra]

If the headlights are compliant to new standards, then yellow warning panels aren't required.

That all falls apart if you lose all lights as in the derailment near Grange over Sands. Had that occured during winter there would have been a train blocking the adjacent line with no lights in the dark and no yellow front.

(Engine and battery pack ripped off during accident)

It was purely luck the signal went back to danger as a semaphore cable was cut by the accident. Driver has no Comms either due to the imbecilic decision to not fit GSMR with a dedicated battery back up (though that's going off topic)

 

[Harvey B]

Maybe if Labour do renationalise they will introduce set liveries

Aren't "Set Liveries" already a thing? Northern, TPE, Southeastern, TfW and ScotRail have all come back into public Ownership and they've not had their liveries changed since.

 

[birchesgreen]

There is something very 'british' about having yellow ends, although I really cannot imagine them looking at all good on, say, the class 345.

Class 701 looks fine to me.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember some years ago there was a report in one of the gricers' magazines that all steam locos on the main line would have to have their front ends painted yellow in order to comply with group standards on visibility. This caused apoplexy amongst the enthusiast fraternity until it was pointed-out that the report was dated 1st April. Best railway-related April Fool ever!

 

[irish_rail]

Aren't "Set Liveries" already a thing? Northern, TPE, Southeastern, TfW and ScotRail have all come back into public Ownership and they've not had their liveries changed since.

True but the Labour plan is I believe for something a little more joined up.

 

[Speed43125]

Aren't "Set Liveries" already a thing? Northern, TPE, Southeastern, TfW and ScotRail have all come back into public Ownership and they've not had their liveries changed since.

The scotrail livery was set up by the Scottish government about 15 years ago. First then Abellio all had to keep to that livery. I don't believe any other franchise has this requirement though?

 

[iphone76]

Another issue we have with the 345s (and I imagine any stock without yellow fronts) is that when the headlights fail, we have to proceed at 20mph whether or not a portable lamp is available. In 315 days, you could use a portable lamp and continue at a maximum speed of 70mph. This usually results in the train being removed from service. (Although to be fair, this is an extremely rare occurance).

 

[Harvey B]

The scotrail livery was set up by the Scottish government about 15 years ago. First then Abellio all had to keep to that livery. I don't believe any other franchise has this requirement though?

I thought Northern and TPE had the same requirement. (But I think thats because all the branding is owned by TfN who co-manage both franchises)

 

[185]

Shame, to me yellow looks better.

Have to agree.

The original point of them was safety - a uniform front colour is quickly recognisable by track-workers, whereas a headlight may blend in with other bright lights.

These new EU tsi-compliant headlights have been described as horrifically bright by many other drivers, dazzling & blinding when they pass.

It's rather telling that many other nations and foreign operators are painting their fronts yellow... at the same time here they are slowly being painted a grim shade of black.

 

[Harvey B]

True but the Labour plan is I believe for something a little more joined up.

What do you mean?

 

[Deepgreen]

I remember some years ago there was a report in one of the gricers' magazines that all steam locos on the main line would have to have their front ends painted yellow in order to comply with group standards on visibility. This caused apoplexy amongst the enthusiast fraternity until it was pointed-out that the report was dated 1st April. Best railway-related April Fool ever!

Indeed. I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to my question of why 35028 'Clan Line' is able to run on the main line with its relatively low-intensity marker lights only, when all other steam locos I can think of have a detachable, high-intensity headlight. I'm very glad it does, but I can't get to the bottom of the reason.

What do you mean?

I imagine that the plan is for a national livery, or at least it should be for a national network. Undoing all the damaging disintegration caused by privatisation is going to take a very long time, but a return to a unified livery would be an obvious element of re-integration.

 

[Sorcerer]

I think there is a certain charm to the yellow front which gives a certain British feel to it, but as far as safety is concerned I do question whether or not there is actual solid evidence to suggest they make railway operations safer. I know yellow is more visible in low-light conditions than other colours but when a train is approaching from far away how likely are you to actually see it before it comes close enough where it can actually be determined as a moving train?

It's rather telling that many other nations and foreign operators are painting their fronts yellow... at the same time here they are slowly being painted a grim shade of black.

Are they? Which ones are you referring to because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

 

[theageofthetra]

Another issue we have with the 345s (and I imagine any stock without yellow fronts) is that when the headlights fail, we have to proceed at 20mph whether or not a portable lamp is available. In 315 days, you could use a portable lamp and continue at a maximum speed of 70mph. This usually results in the train being removed from service. (Although to be fair, this is an extremely rare occurance).

Very good point

 

[zwk500]

Are they? Which ones are you referring to because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

SNCB in Belgium and NS in the Netherlands have Yellow fronts, although SNCB can vary quite a lot from just framing of the windscreen to a full yellow end, while NS has corporate colours of Yellow and Blue so the yellow is part of the bodyside livery as well.

 

[172007]

As a driver i have to say getting rid of yellow ends is a poor decision. The familiarity of seeing that big blob of yellow in the distance outweighs anything cosmetic. During the day headlights dont really have the same effect.

Being a driver on a console/computer simulator or preserved railway is totally different from a set of LED headlights coming at you that could be seen from the moon on the real railway. Yellow front ends are simply not that visible especially in bright sunshine compared with modern spec LED train headlights.

 

[DanNCL]

It's rather telling that many other nations and foreign operators are painting their fronts yellow... at the same time here they are slowly being painted a grim shade of black.

Are they? Which ones are you referring to because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

SNCB in Belgium and NS in the Netherlands have Yellow fronts, although SNCB can vary quite a lot from just framing of the windscreen to a full yellow end, while NS has corporate colours of Yellow and Blue so the yellow is part of the bodyside livery as well.

It’s a requirement in Ireland. SNCB and NS generally have it too as part of the livery but never recalled it being a requirement for either of them. That said, NS’s SNG fleet is getting yellow fronts added to the existing livery which previously had blue fronts.

 

[Sorcerer]

SNCB in Belgium and NS in the Netherlands have Yellow fronts, although SNCB can vary quite a lot from just framing of the windscreen to a full yellow end, while NS has corporate colours of Yellow and Blue so the yellow is part of the bodyside livery as well.

I was aware that NS had yellow trains but as far as I knew that was just part of the corporate branding rather than requirements, so it isn't really that telling like the message I was replying to claimed. SNCB I cannot speak of but I do now remember some of them having yellow fronts in videos I've seen.

It’s a requirement in Ireland. SNCB and NS generally have it too as part of the livery but never recalled it being a requirement for either of them. That said, NS’s SNG fleet is getting yellow fronts added to the existing livery which previously had blue fronts.

Is the Irish requirement in any related to British laws or did they decide it independently? I would guess it was related to the UK standards since, as I understand it, the loading gauges are also similar.

 

[physics34]

Being a driver on a console/computer simulator or preserved railway is totally different from a set of LED headlights coming at you that could be seen from the moon on the real railway. Yellow front ends are simply not that visible especially in bright sunshine compared with modern spec LED train headlights.

I tend to disagree... being a mainline driver.

Familiarity is also a part of it. Yes, ive heard of 'you cant teach an old dog new tricks'... but a bright light is a bright light.. a yellow blob in the distance is a train front..

 

[superalbs]

Have to agree.

The original point of them was safety - a uniform front colour is quickly recognisable by track-workers, whereas a headlight may blend in with other bright lights.

These new EU tsi-compliant headlights have been described as horrifically bright by many other drivers, dazzling & blinding when they pass.

It's rather telling that many other nations and foreign operators are painting their fronts yellow... at the same time here they are slowly being painted a grim shade of black.

Very very few have done this, unless yellow is part of their brand identity. Who exactly are you referring to?