New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[hexagon789]

Modern Railways now reporting that the current EMT HST fleet will indeed be replaced by ex-LNER stock

https://mobile.twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1190216151516758016?s=09

Interesting to see how many sets AND if they remain 2+9, presumably not and they'll be shortened by a TS.

If so, why get LNER sets? They can get the GWR sets right now but the LNER ones are still in service. They could have got rid of the HSTs ages ago.

Not sure the high-density seating will go down well.

 

[43096]

3 sets, but only 2 sets used on a daily basis, the 3rd spends most of the time sat on EP without powercars attached

2 diagrams for 3 sets, then. Much clearer.

 

[43096]

Interesting to see how many sets AND if they remain 2+9, presumably not and they'll be shortened by a TS.

They could do something more radical and shorten them to 2+6 or 2+7, which would give similar performance to the 222s, but with similar (or greater) seating capacity to a 7-car 222. They could then work all the fast Sheffield and Nottingham services, which would improve platform working at St. Pancras (Nottinghams wouldn't need a 70min turn-round as incoming Nottingham could go to Sheffield and v.v.) and allow strengthening of other 222 workings as pairs.

Only the fast Nottingham and some peak workings would see a seating capacity drop (currently 8-car HSTs), but there would be plenty of strengthening on other trains in compensation.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Interesting to see how many sets AND if they remain 2+9, presumably not and they'll be shortened by a TS.



Not sure the high-density seating will go down well.

The further performance hit from 2+9 operation, plus the short platforms at Wellingborough and Kettering make me think it'll be 2+8 (or less)

Agree that there could be scope to use 2+6 ex LNER sets to create a whole fleet with similar performance, match capacity to demand and allow the 222 fleet to be shuffled around. However, unless someone has the demand data for EMR, the impact of electric services and the proposed post Dec 2020 timetable, I think we'll all be speculating about the value of doing anything other than like for like swaps.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Historically, there was a reason for the HSTs to be at confined to the fast Nottinghams (and I know that these call at Harborough, but that's only a result of one of the slows going to Corby and obviously missing Harboro'). There were periods when the failure rate of the HSTs was very high (I spent many a commute ambling along on an OPCO HST) and this was blamed on their unsuitability for use on services with comparatively frequent stops, and the solution was to confine them to workings with a limited number of calls.
Now I know this was in the days of the original type of Paxman engine, but it does seem that there was been a reluctance from the Nat Exp MML days and throughout the Stagecoach ones not to follow this practice (and I know it's different on Sundays and there are possible explanations for this).
Of course, it may be that the re-engine LNER ones are seen as not having this short-coming, but it would suggest that there will just be like-for-like swaps. And, as an aside, aren't there enough soon-to-be redundant LNER HSTs to replace the ex Grand Central ones as well, without the need for 180s, exciting as the prospect of the latter might be?

 

[Doomotron]

heaven help anyone with a std class ticket who was asked to travel on an ex GWR HST set...I assume you are familiar with the interiors?

Yes, I have been on one before. Very nice interior. Would travel again.

 

[43096]

Historically, there was a reason for the HSTs to be at confined to the fast Nottinghams (and I know that these call at Harborough, but that's only a result of one of the slows going to Corby and obviously missing Harboro'). There were periods when the failure rate of the HSTs was very high (I spent many a commute ambling along on an OPCO HST) and this was blamed on their unsuitability for use on services with comparatively frequent stops, and the solution was to confine them to workings with a limited number of calls.
Now I know this was in the days of the original type of Paxman engine, but it does seem that there was been a reluctance from the Nat Exp MML days and throughout the Stagecoach ones not to follow this practice (and I know it's different on Sundays and there are possible explanations for this).
Of course, it may be that the re-engine LNER ones are seen as not having this short-coming, but it would suggest that there will just be like-for-like swaps. And, as an aside, aren't there enough soon-to-be redundant LNER HSTs to replace the ex Grand Central ones as well, without the need for 180s, exciting as the prospect of the latter might be?

The reason under Stagecoach was the tightened timings on the fast Sheffield workings where a 222 has better power:weight ratio compared to a 2+8 HST.

No idea why people would see the MTU engine power cars as superior to VP185 examples, which is what you are suggesting. The Midland fleet has been reliable for many, many years and indeed was the first HST fleet to break the 10,000 miles per casualty barrier.

 

[ExRes]

Historically, there was a reason for the HSTs to be at confined to the fast Nottinghams (and I know that these call at Harborough, but that's only a result of one of the slows going to Corby and obviously missing Harboro'). There were periods when the failure rate of the HSTs was very high (I spent many a commute ambling along on an OPCO HST) and this was blamed on their unsuitability for use on services with comparatively frequent stops, and the solution was to confine them to workings with a limited number of calls.
Now I know this was in the days of the original type of Paxman engine, but it does seem that there was been a reluctance from the Nat Exp MML days and throughout the Stagecoach ones not to follow this practice (and I know it's different on Sundays and there are possible explanations for this).

We did have big problems in the early 2000s which is probably the period you're thinking of, there was some sort of mechanical failure which caused oil contamination and each power car had to be checked daily, this led to regular one power car working causing subsequent delays until the situation was sorted, that was the cause of the hire in of Fragonset 47s and the Mk2 set for one daily service in each direction, good fun for us if not the passengers as I'd not expected to work 47s again .....

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, I have been on one before. Very nice interior. Would travel again.

enjoyed the lack of leg room, inability to get a decent view from the window and having a seat back right in front of your face?

Use of the ex GW HSTs on the route to and from my home would be a major incentive for me to cease spending the £00s per year on travel on the MML that I now spend and get in my car, which suffers from none of those problems.

 

[hexagon789]

They could do something more radical and shorten them to 2+6 or 2+7, which would give similar performance to the 222s, but with similar (or greater) seating capacity to a 7-car 222. They could then work all the fast Sheffield and Nottingham services, which would improve platform working at St. Pancras (Nottinghams wouldn't need a 70min turn-round as incoming Nottingham could go to Sheffield and v.v.) and allow strengthening of other 222 workings as pairs.

Indeed they could, are the 2+8 sets as they are ever full and standing or is than an issue mainly with the 222s

The further performance hit from 2+9 operation, plus the short platforms at Wellingborough and Kettering make me think it'll be 2+8 (or less)

That was my thinking that some platforms wouldn't be able to fit them and the further drop in acceleration compared to a 222 would also preclude using them as 2+9, but stranger things have happened...

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed they could, are the 2+8 sets as they are ever full and standing or is than an issue mainly with the 222s


.

Pretty full when I use the HSTs on every occasion I have recently traveled (4 times in last 2 weeks) - tho not as full as before the Bedford stops were removed in order to push people on to thameslink.

There would be little to no point in running HST short sets. They use the Angel sets for some less busy diagrams (eg a late eve departure from St P for example) and these sets are already shorter.

The ex GW HST sets IIRC are no more DDA compliant than the others so can't see any point whatsoever in using them instead of the existing or indeed LNER sets for the period concerned until the bi-modes are delivered.

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed they could, are the 2+8 sets as they are ever full and standing or is than an issue mainly with the 222s



That was my thinking that some platforms wouldn't be able to fit them and the further drop in acceleration compared to a 222 would also preclude using them as 2+9, but stranger things have happened...

It's mainly a problem with the 222s, but the HSTs can be quite busy, if you're removing a coach then a TF should be removed

 

[Doomotron]

enjoyed the lack of leg room, inability to get a decent view from the window and having a seat back right in front of your face?

Use of the ex GW HSTs on the route to and from my home would be a major incentive for me to cease spending the £00s per year on travel on the MML that I now spend and get in my car, which suffers from none of those problems.

I had none of these issues. I did not have any issues with legroom, I had a lovely (albeit boring) view from the window, and the high seat backs made me feel very safe and cosy. Also, on the LNER HSTs, the seat backs are worse because they don't taper at the top, so somehow you've made favouritism out of a train carriage.

 

[43096]

It's mainly a problem with the 222s, but the HSTs can be quite busy, if you're removing a coach then a TF should be removed

How very Great Western...

If they are going 2+8, then remove a TS, so they stay the same as now. If they go 2+7, remove two TS and convert the TRFB with standard class seats (so each class loses half a coach compared with now).

 

[hello]

Are all the Lner hst sets transferring, and is it power cars and coaches or just coaches?

 

[Domh245]

My guess is that they'd transfer power cars as well. Different ROSCOs (LNER are angel, EMR's are porterbrook) and I'd be surprised if they didn't offer it as a whole package

 

[cactustwirly]

How very Great Western...

If they are going 2+8, then remove a TS, so they stay the same as now. If they go 2+7, remove two TS and convert the TRFB with standard class seats (so each class loses half a coach compared with now).

Yeah because First class carries fresh air most of the time.
Standard is quite busy

 

[43096]

Yeah because First class carries fresh air most of the time.
Standard is quite busy

Quite busy. So there’s fresh air in standard as well.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Quite busy. So there’s fresh air in standard as well.

Technically every coach in every train carries fresh air.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Unless its 225 then their is no difference between either HST stock. EMR seem to not have a consistent plan when it comes to precuring stock

I presume this wont stop the 180s from being transferred over?

MTUs on the ex LNER vs Valenta on EMR fleet, I’d imagine it wins a few environmental points to go MTU.

 

[Qwerty133]

How very Great Western...

If they are going 2+8, then remove a TS, so they stay the same as now. If they go 2+7, remove two TS and convert the TRFB with standard class seats (so each class loses half a coach compared with now).

I think its pretty much universally accepted (except by those who believe Stagecoach can do no wrong) that the proportion of first class on the MML has been too high for the last decade. If there is a no cost (I await someone coming along to point out such insignificant costs such as that a change in formation will cause a need for the safety posters to be reprinted...) opportunity to reduce this proportion even if only on some services the arguments in favour are much stronger than keeping too much first class for the sake of consistency.

 

[43096]

MTUs on the ex LNER vs Valenta on EMR fleet, I’d imagine it wins a few environmental points to go MTU.

EMR don’t have Valentas.

 

[MatthewRead]

MTUs on the ex LNER vs Valenta on EMR fleet, I’d imagine it wins a few environmental points to go MTU.

They're no Valentas they're VP185's.

 

[hwl]

EMR don’t have Valentas.

They just have new Valentas with a better turbo design, charge air cooling, a different badge and new fuel injection instead!

 

[hwl]

MTUs on the ex LNER vs Valenta on EMR fleet, I’d imagine it wins a few environmental points to go MTU.

The MTU engine is less "stressed" than the updated Valenta but it does have the idle speed tweaked up to re-use the old alternators so it isn't as clear cut as you might think.

 

[43096]

The MTU engine is less "stressed" than the updated Valenta but it does have the idle speed tweaked up to re-use the old alternators so it isn't as clear cut as you might think.

It isn’t an “updated Valenta”. The VP185 was a brand new design.

 

[hexagon789]

Pretty full when I use the HSTs on every occasion I have recently traveled (4 times in last 2 weeks) - tho not as full as before the Bedford stops were removed in order to push people on to thameslink.

There would be little to no point in running HST short sets. They use the Angel sets for some less busy diagrams (eg a late eve departure from St P for example) and these sets are already shorter.

The ex GW HST sets IIRC are no more DDA compliant than the others so can't see any point whatsoever in using them instead of the existing or indeed LNER sets for the period concerned until the bi-modes are delivered.

In which case they may as well make them 2+8.

 

[hexagon789]

It's mainly a problem with the 222s, but the HSTs can be quite busy, if you're removing a coach then a TF should be removed

I bet they leave them as the same approximate formation as the current 2+8 sets.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Emissions from a VP185 vs MTU must surely put the MTU out front surely? Are there any new services planned or is it just a literal like for like swap?

 

[43096]

Emissions from a VP185 vs MTU must surely put the MTU out front surely?

It’s a common misconception that the MTU is greener than the VP185. It isn’t - they are very, very similar. In fact the “greenest” engine fitted to an HST is the VP185 in 43076, which was modified earlier this year with electronic fuel injection in a partnership between MAN, EMT and Porterbrook.