New trains for the DLR?

[Busaholic]

http://www.nce.co.uk/features/geotechnical/geotechnical-bank-underground-station/8660630.article

Looking at the picture of the tunnel layout at Bank it looks like it's physically impossible to extend the DLR at Bank and looking at Tower Gateway station on Google Earth I can't see them extending westward from there either as it would either mean demolishing buildings or boring a tunnel and moving Tower Gateway underground

I did say the idea had come from someone who'd spent their formative years on Mars or Venus and was probably planning to return there at some stage.

 

[Clip]

There's probably scope for extra trains on the Woolwich and Lewisham branches themselves.

The Woolwich branch already has them to the detriment of the Beckton branch and a new timetable coming in this august too but Im unsure of what other changes there may be to them.

 

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I am unable to view the image in question; the link requires a membership and a log in.

There was this drawing from skyscrapercity a while back that shows its pointing in the wrong way to go further west

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thanks; that's a really useful and informative drawing.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't see a railway bridge going across the Thames downstream of Cannon Street - the height requirement would be pretty heady.

TFL have stated (here) that they will build the Overground extension to Barking Riverside in a way that does not prevent the possibility of later extending it to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood. The new Barking Riverside station will be very close to the Thames and as far as I'm aware is not in a tunnel, so that would seem to suggest that TfL believe a railway bridge can be built in that area.

 

[edwin_m]

TFL have stated (here) that they will build the Overground extension to Barking Riverside in a way that does not prevent the possibility of later extending it to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood. The new Barking Riverside station will be very close to the Thames and as far as I'm aware is not in a tunnel, so that would seem to suggest that TfL believe a railway bridge can be built in that area.

But after the station the route would either have to go up to cross a bridge clear of the largest ship (think QE2 bridge height!) or down into tunnel. I suspect the distance down to the tunnel would be less, so that is the more likely solution. I'm assuming nobody wants to consider a moveable span bridge!

 

[Nym]

So TfL want to build a massive rail bridge for a 4tph link over the Thames, forgive me for thinking that's a bloody big waste of money...

 

[jon0844]

If anyone can waste loads of money for little obvious (or, to be fair, immediate) gain then it's TfL.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Would any new tunnel be 'captive' to the TfL network in the same way that the ELL and Crossrail are? As in, would they be designed to normal Network Rail standards so that any arbitrary rolling stock would be able to use them, or would they be designed so that only a small set of EMUs would be able to use it? If the tunnel were entirely standard, then it could be used by freight trains from the Gospel Oak line (and the lines which feed into it) to reach the south without having to go all the way around to the WLL.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So TfL want to build a massive rail bridge for a 4tph link over the Thames, forgive me for thinking that's a bloody big waste of money...

This is somewhat getting off-topic, but, I'd point out that building the bridge (or tunnel, if Edwin_m is correct) is currently a long term aspiration, it's not something they are planning immediately. And it certainly doesn't look like a waste of money to me:

• If they built it, I'd say it's pretty safe bet that passenger use would very quickly rise to the point of requiring more than 4 trains per hour (look what happened to the DLR at Woolwich!). It would provide the huge suburb of Thamesmead with its first ever rail service, would link large numbers of people in both Barking and Thamesmead to Crossrail, and would provide a means of making orbital journeys in that part of London by public transport - something which is not currently possible and appears to be quite a gaping hole in the transport network in that area.
• TfL are currently planning to build no less than 2 road bridges across the Thames in that area as well as a new road tunnel a little further West. (Most of that is arguably is a waste of money to the extent that building those will probably end up doing far more harm than good in terms of increasing congestion. But if they reckon there's enough demand to support 3 new North-South road crossings, it doesn't seem much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest there must be sufficient demand to support one new North-South rail crossing

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Would any new tunnel be 'captive' to the TfL network in the same way that the ELL and Crossrail are? As in, would they be designed to normal Network Rail standards so that any arbitrary rolling stock would be able to use them, or would they be designed so that only a small set of EMUs would be able to use it? If the tunnel were entirely standard, then it could be used by freight trains from the Gospel Oak line (and the lines which feed into it) to reach the south without having to go all the way around to the WLL.

An interesting idea. I don't think the plans are well advanced enough to give any idea of the answer to that, though.

 

[edwin_m]

Good to make provision for a river crossing. But it's only about 2km downstream from the newish DLR and forthcoming Crossrail crossings to Woolwich, both of which offer a better range of destinations, I can't see building it as a high priority. I wonder if there is scope to extend the DLR from Woolwich through a selection of stations in Thamesmead to finish at Abbey Wood.

 

[Nym]

That would make more sense, as it would provide a service to Abbey Wood, although it would mean that the direct route took longer, and we all know that no direct train may as well be no train...(!)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I appreciate that as someone with no engineering qualifications this may get shot down very quickly, but speaking hypothetically (so putting cost issues on the back burner for the time being) would it be possible to extend West from Tower Gateway as an 'elevated' railway above the streets, thus negating the need to tunnel or demolish buildings? Such things are fairly common in North American cities and not a million miles away from large parts of the existing DLR network.

 

[Stats]

Good to make provision for a river crossing. But it's only about 2km downstream from the newish DLR and forthcoming Crossrail crossings to Woolwich, both of which offer a better range of destinations, I can't see building it as a high priority. I wonder if there is scope to extend the DLR from Woolwich through a selection of stations in Thamesmead to finish at Abbey Wood.

Woolwich station is facing the wrong way. You would be better serving Thamesmead by extending the DLR from Gallions Reach by building in a DLR route on the proposed road bridge at Gallions Reach and re-routing the Stratford International to Beckton service (when reinstated with a bigger fleet) to Thamesmead.

 

[Chris125]

I appreciate that as someone with no engineering qualifications this may get shot down very quickly, but speaking hypothetically (so putting cost issues on the back burner for the time being) would it be possible to extend West from Tower Gateway as an 'elevated' railway above the streets, thus negating the need to tunnel or demolish buildings? Such things are fairly common in North American cities and not a million miles away from large parts of the existing DLR network.

They aren't especially common and I believe were unpopular due to the obvious impact on the streets below - it really wouldn't be acceptable in Central London even if the roads were straight and wide enough.

 

[JaJaWa]

I appreciate that as someone with no engineering qualifications this may get shot down very quickly, but speaking hypothetically (so putting cost issues on the back burner for the time being) would it be possible to extend West from Tower Gateway as an 'elevated' railway above the streets, thus negating the need to tunnel or demolish buildings? Such things are fairly common in North American cities and not a million miles away from large parts of the existing DLR network.

I'm sure that would do wonders for the Tower of London's UNESCO status.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Good to make provision for a river crossing. But it's only about 2km downstream from the newish DLR and forthcoming Crossrail crossings to Woolwich, both of which offer a better range of destinations, I can't see building it as a high priority. I wonder if there is scope to extend the DLR from Woolwich through a selection of stations in Thamesmead to finish at Abbey Wood.

As others have pointed out, the DLR at Woolwich is facing the wrong way, so it wouldn't really be an extension - more like a new DLR line. It's an interesting idea and would have the advantage that you could put several stations in Thamesmead, thus serving the complete area very well. However, I could see it being very hard to link it to the existing DLR at Woolwich. Woolwich Arsenal DLR is underground, and, after leaving the station, the lines head straight into the tunnel under the Thames. I imagine any attempt to build a junction there so lines can run off to Thamesmead would be extremely expensive, and would involve closing Woolwich Arsenal DLR for an extended period.

The other problem is that you'd end up with a new DLR line that just runs from Woolwich to Thamesmead. While you rightly say there are a lot of potential destinations at the Woolwich end (although not that many more than would be provided at Abbey Wood for an Overground extension), you have the problem that there is only one possible destination at the Thamesmead end: Thamesmead. So the only patronage would basically be people who live in Thamesmead - no scope for through journeys to other places. That contrasts sharply with the proposed Overground extension, which has a lot of possible interchanges at both ends, and I imagine it could be a problem for any business case.

Woolwich station is facing the wrong way. You would be better serving Thamesmead by extending the DLR from Gallions Reach by building in a DLR route on the proposed road bridge at Gallions Reach and re-routing the Stratford International to Beckton service (when reinstated with a bigger fleet) to Thamesmead.

That would probably work well - it would give good interchanges at both ends of the route. And it certainly strikes me as a better use of money than building a road bridge at Galleons' Reach. But I'm not clear what advantages it would have over an Overground extension, especially given that CrossRail will already provide a fast Abbey Wood-Excel link.