New XC contract - what changes would you like to see?

[fishwomp]

The #1 problem is too much overcrowding on certain sections - before COVID was bad enough on some parts, and those parts are now worse and operating on sometimes 1 train per hour.

The OXF-BAN section is 1 tph of 4 car. South of OXF, plenty options, north of BAN - 2tph from Chiltern to BHM. A single cancellation of one XC breaks the entire route south of Banbury for at least an hour. How long should you allow to be safe connecting for a plane from BHI? And then that train 1 hr later will be so full it'll lose time at each stop, if you can get on it at all..

Even LMS-COV has the local hourly service now..

Is there anywhere on the entire XC network that has an hourly service and no other provision from another operator?

Constructively I would - until more rolling stock: cull the Edinburgh-Newcastle. What use is a 4-car train anyway relative to the other 2-3 or sometimes 4 services per hour of other operators. Did I mention diesel under the wires.

Alternatively: try to find a way for GWR to run more Banbury services - even having a 1tph stopper OXF-BAN would close the gap.

Or should the 170s venture wider.. forming a semi-fast in more parts of XC.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there anywhere on the entire XC network that has an hourly service and no other provision from another operator?

Leicester to Peterborough

A single cancellation of one XC breaks the entire route south of Banbury for at least an hour.

GWR run locals in some hours, and there is a second XC service in some hours, although not many.

 

[GoneSouth]

Hopefully some decent prices advances for the full journey aswell, although that may be wishful thinking.

Not a regular XC user I assume!

TOne service at peak time isn’t going to be cheap (affordable). Bag yourself some GWR and LNER advances instead

 

[fishwomp]

Leicester to Peterborough

True. I still think of XC as the Voyager network, incorrectly.

GWR run locals in some hours, and there is a second XC service in some hours, although not many.

3 hour gaps in the morning from GWR and the 2nd XC.
Conveniently, 4 of the 5 gap-filling XCs are within 30 mins of the GWR services.. meaning there are a lot more hours with 1 train in than there are with 2..

 

[Bluejays]

Not a regular XC user I assume!

TOne service at peak time isn’t going to be cheap (affordable). Bag yourself some GWR and LNER advances instead

There'd be no point, I've got a pass . I know xc are masters of letting people down, but people ain't half negative on this thread !

 

[GoneSouth]

I know xc are masters of letting people down, but people ain't half negative on this thread !

My only real problem is the cost, it always seems to be much more expensive than using GWR where they have services overlap, but anywhere north of Cheltenham is really expensive (and unfairly so as there is no alternative)

 

[Bluejays]

My only real problem is the cost, it always seems to be much more expensive than using GWR where they have services overlap, but anywhere north of Cheltenham is really expensive

Very true.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The changes I'd like to see are...

1. Similar interior colours to the CrossCountry HST's.

2. The 06:35 Bristol Temple Meads to Edinburgh started at Cardiff Central and say the 16:07 from Edinburgh to Bristol Temple Meads. This leaves 7 Voyagers to strengthen other services!

3. The following additional Reading - Newcastle diagram:
06:24 York to Reading.
10:45 Reading to Newcastle.
16:35 Newcastle to Reading.
This should reduce overcrowding on the 2 4-coach 06:45 York to Plymouth and 15:08 Edinburgh to Plymouth services up to Birmingham New Street.

4. The Voyagers fitted with batteries (was talked about I believe) that turns the engines off at stations such as Birmingham New Street.

5. Cheaper Advance Singles.

6. More reliable First Class catering for customers!!!

Hope works better when it has a basis in reality and what's gone before. Did you hope or expect a change of operator on the route? Or that a new fleet of trains would be ordered to replace the Voyagers or something? They are only halfway through their design life at this stage.

But yet the oldest TPE trains were new in 2005/2006.

Hopefully things will get better!

 

[JD2168]

Some things I would like are:
At least 5 cars on every Train.
At least every 30 minutes at Peak times between York & Bristol Temple Meads via Leeds, Sheffield & Birmingham.
Full interior & seat refurbishment on every train.
More services extending to Penzance during the summer months.

 

[A S Leib]

Constructively I would - until more rolling stock: cull the Edinburgh-Newcastle. What use is a 4-car train anyway relative to the other 2-3 or sometimes 4 services per hour of other operators. Did I mention diesel under the wires

I know that it's half an hour shorter each way and doesn't have the issue of diesel under the wires, but I'd guess that Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth have less demand to Cheltenham, Birmingham and further north than there is from Edinburgh to Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham and further south (and Leeds now the TPE services from Edinburgh via Huddersfield have gone), particularly outside of holidays.

Some things I would like are:
At least 5 cars on every Train.
At least every 30 minutes at Peak times between York & Bristol Temple Meads via Leeds, Sheffield & Birmingham.
Full interior & seat refurbishment on every train.
More services extending to Penzance during the summer months.

I'd like to see a mixture of more Penzance, Newquay and Paignton services, but I'd guess that the current 1tp2h is the most frequent which can be run to Newquay with the current infrastructure, and an extra train per hour would probably be more useful between Plymouth and Penzance than between Newton Abbot and Paignton (which has 2 tph from Exmouth, a few from Paddington - I think - as well as buses well into the early hours even in mid-September).

My own targets would be at least 600 seats on all services except possibly Birmingham - Leicester stoppers and Nottingham - Birmingham terminators, and to have three trains per hour between Sheffield and Bristol in the peak, with two via Leeds and one via Doncaster.

 

[GoneSouth]

More services extending to Penzance during the summer months.

The problem with Penzance at the moment are the timings are just not right. Arrivals are all late evening compared to the old BR days when tourists could arrive at 5pm instead of 9 or 10 pm, which is not great for checking into hotels and then finding an evening meal (no meals available on XC either BTW)

Leaving Penzance is also not quite right, The first train gets a peak fare penalty (Mon to Fri) for tourists, who is going to book on that when you can leave an hour later and save 50 quid, albeit with a change in Plymouth.

I realise I am probably playing into the hands of XC who want to use small numbers of passengers to justify killing the Penzance service, and have done for years!

I think there’s definitely a market for XC to carry a lot of people into Cornwall from the north and midlands but the truth is it takes one of their valuable units out of the core Bristol to Newcastle for a long time. Maybe getting extra units from Avanti will mean they can run the services to Cornwall at a decent time for the first time in 20+ years

 

[RobShipway]

No one has to go to Victoria to get to Euston if they don't want to. Any XC service to Brighton would be hopelessly slower than taking Thameslink to St Pancras and walking 10 minutes to Euston, St Pancras or King's Cross for fast journeys north.

The opening of St Pancras Thameslink Station was a step change in connectivity northbound from Brighton which just about closed off any thought that there need to be XC journeys to Brighton.

What about those who are blind, have luggage or have difficulty walking

My partner did the walk with luggage and had to do it quickly due to delayed trains and had an asthma attack (at the time the tube was not available)

It's not an easy walk

And it's unfair those who are able to say it is

I'm not arguing for services to Brighton but just arguing the fact that crossing London is not easy for all

There is no connections prior to Victoria where you could travel to Euston and as @FlyingPotato stated if you are blind or disabled in some way there is no way that you are going to make the walk from St Pancras to Euston with luggage. Whilst there are options for people travelling from Brighton and I know that there is not the paths for XC trains to travel to Brighton.

The issue I have is people complaining about the poor tube, when people in the South East have little or no other option especially if they have luggage to be using the tube to be getting to either Paddington or Euston. The only option where the tube does not need to be used is if someone takes the Thameslink link service to Farringdon and change to the Elizabeth Line to travel to Paddington.

If it was me though and I was going to say Birmingham, I would travel on Thameslinl to East Croydon and then use the Southern service to Watford Junction to get the LNWR (West Midland Trains) service to Birmingham New Street. Unless I can time it such, that I can get a AWC service going Northbound.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The problem with Penzance at the moment are the timings are just not right. Arrivals are all late evening compared to the old BR days when tourists could arrive at 5pm instead of 9 or 10 pm, which is not great for checking into hotels and then finding an evening meal (no meals available on XC either BTW)

Leaving Penzance is also not quite right, The first train gets a peak fare penalty (Mon to Fri) for tourists, who is going to book on that when you can leave an hour later and save 50 quid, albeit with a change in Plymouth.

I realise I am probably playing into the hands of XC who want to use small numbers of passengers to justify killing the Penzance service, and have done for years!

I think there’s definitely a market for XC to carry a lot of people into Cornwall from the north and midlands but the truth is it takes one of their valuable units out of the core Bristol to Newcastle for a long time. Maybe getting extra units from Avanti will mean they can run the services to Cornwall at a decent time for the first time in 20+ years

Before the pandemic (for at least presumably 5 years up to 2019) XC did run an HST from York to Penzance at around 7:45am, arriving around 8 hours later. It returned at 16:25 to Leeds, arriving about 23:55.

XC also ran an 07:05ish from Manchester to Newquay arriving around 14:30. It returned around 15:30/35 arriving back at around 22:35.

So if only the rest of the 221's could transfer then things would return to normal for passengers only with bigger trains.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

The problem with Penzance at the moment are the timings are just not right. Arrivals are all late evening compared to the old BR days when tourists could arrive at 5pm instead of 9 or 10 pm, which is not great for checking into hotels and then finding an evening meal (no meals available on XC either BTW)

Leaving Penzance is also not quite right, The first train gets a peak fare penalty (Mon to Fri) for tourists, who is going to book on that when you can leave an hour later and save 50 quid, albeit with a change in Plymouth.

I realise I am probably playing into the hands of XC who want to use small numbers of passengers to justify killing the Penzance service, and have done for years!

I think there’s definitely a market for XC to carry a lot of people into Cornwall from the north and midlands but the truth is it takes one of their valuable units out of the core Bristol to Newcastle for a long time. Maybe getting extra units from Avanti will mean they can run the services to Cornwall at a decent time for the first time in 20+ years

That last part is true, whilst the world has now returned to normal and holidays in Europe are fully accessible, many people have realised how nice our own country is and not everyone wants the 5/6/7/8 hour drive down to the south west.

I know that it's half an hour shorter each way and doesn't have the issue of diesel under the wires, but I'd guess that Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth have less demand to Cheltenham, Birmingham and further north than there is from Edinburgh to Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham and further south (and Leeds now the TPE services from Edinburgh via Huddersfield have gone), particularly outside of holidays.

I'd like to see a mixture of more Penzance, Newquay and Paignton services, but I'd guess that the current 1tp2h is the most frequent which can be run to Newquay with the current infrastructure, and an extra train per hour would probably be more useful between Plymouth and Penzance than between Newton Abbot and Paignton (which has 2 tph from Exmouth, a few from Paddington - I think - as well as buses well into the early hours even in mid-September).

My own targets would be at least 600 seats on all services except possibly Birmingham - Leicester stoppers and Nottingham - Birmingham terminators, and to have three trains per hour between Sheffield and Bristol in the peak, with two via Leeds and one via Doncaster.

It's much quicker via Donny but probably has more customer potential via Leeds. Decisions decisions.....

 

[irish_rail]

I know that it's half an hour shorter each way and doesn't have the issue of diesel under the wires, but I'd guess that Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth have less demand to Cheltenham, Birmingham and further north than there is from Edinburgh to Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham and further south (and Leeds now the TPE services from Edinburgh via Huddersfield have gone), particularly outside of holidays.

I wouldn't be so sure. Edinburgh isn't exactly massive, yes, its population is bigger than Plymouth Totnes and Newton Abbot combined, but not by that much. Also, from Edinburgh southward, people have other options, from Plymouth northwards, they really don't, its XC or nothing (other than going way way out of the way via London).
In my view Edinburgh to Newcastle would be axeable as like other pointed out there is so much choice with full length trains on that stretch of route. Id probably also can Plymouth to Penzance as well if I'm completely honest, or at very least move the timings so it hits Penzance in the daytime not late evening.

 

[RobShipway]

The problem with Penzance at the moment are the timings are just not right. Arrivals are all late evening compared to the old BR days when tourists could arrive at 5pm instead of 9 or 10 pm, which is not great for checking into hotels and then finding an evening meal (no meals available on XC either BTW)

Leaving Penzance is also not quite right, The first train gets a peak fare penalty (Mon to Fri) for tourists, who is going to book on that when you can leave an hour later and save 50 quid, albeit with a change in Plymouth.

I realise I am probably playing into the hands of XC who want to use small numbers of passengers to justify killing the Penzance service, and have done for years!

I think there’s definitely a market for XC to carry a lot of people into Cornwall from the north and midlands but the truth is it takes one of their valuable units out of the core Bristol to Newcastle for a long time. Maybe getting extra units from Avanti will mean they can run the services to Cornwall at a decent time for the first time in 20+ years

The problem as I see it is the time of the journey's from Penzance to Aberdeen/Edingburgh where people making that journey are possibly more likely to fly than travel by train possibly?

For instance the 08:37 from Penzance gets to Edingburgh at 20:04. So that is over 11 hours of being on a four coach class 220 Voyager, in the case for today it is 220032. The service for Aberdeen starts at 06:28 using today 221135 and gets to Aberdeen 20:47, so that is over 12 hours of travelling.

You can fly from Newquay Airport with either Loganair or Ryanair to Edingburgh and with use Loganair to Aberdeen. So for example you could leave Newquay at 12:30pm with Loganair which arrives at 14:15 at Edingburgh Airport. Now this option would set you back £157.69 one way. Whereas you look at the same on the XC site and it would cost you £290.90 and it suggest that you change trains at Birmingham New Street for a quicker AWC service to Edingburgh Waverley.

Now, admittedly you still got the cost of getting from Penzance to Newquay Airport.

On the basis of the above, I can understand why there is possibly not many people that would be doing the full journey between Penzance to Edingburgh/Aberdeen. This is why I do wonder if there should be Penzance to birmingham New Street shuttle services?

 

[lachlan]

The problem as I see it is the time of the journey's from Penzance to Aberdeen/Edingburgh where people making that journey are possibly more likely to fly than travel by train possibly?

For instance the 08:37 from Penzance gets to Edingburgh at 20:04. So that is over 11 hours of being on a four coach class 220 Voyager, in the case for today it is 220032. The service for Aberdeen starts at 06:28 using today 221135 and gets to Aberdeen 20:47, so that is over 12 hours of travelling.

You can fly from Newquay Airport with either Loganair or Ryanair to Edingburgh and with use Loganair to Aberdeen. So for example you could leave Newquay at 12:30pm with Loganair which arrives at 14:15 at Edingburgh Airport. Now this option would set you back £157.69 one way. Whereas you look at the same on the XC site and it would cost you £290.90 and it suggest that you change trains at Birmingham New Street for a quicker AWC service to Edingburgh Waverley.

Now, admittedly you still got the cost of getting from Penzance to Newquay Airport.

On the basis of the above, I can understand why there is possibly not many people that would be doing the full journey between Penzance to Edingburgh/Aberdeen. This is why I do wonder if there should be Penzance to birmingham New Street shuttle services?

IIRC, last time I checked it was quicker and cheaper to split a Stonehaven to Bristol journey in two places than to take the direct CrossCountry train. A relative made this journey and opted for the direct train on the basis of wanting an easy journey without interchanges or airports.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The problem as I see it is the time of the journey's from Penzance to Aberdeen/Edingburgh where people making that journey are possibly more likely to fly than travel by train possibly?

For instance the 08:37 from Penzance gets to Edingburgh at 20:04. So that is over 11 hours of being on a four coach class 220 Voyager, in the case for today it is 220032. The service for Aberdeen starts at 06:28 using today 221135 and gets to Aberdeen 20:47, so that is over 12 hours of travelling.

You can fly from Newquay Airport with either Loganair or Ryanair to Edingburgh and with use Loganair to Aberdeen. So for example you could leave Newquay at 12:30pm with Loganair which arrives at 14:15 at Edingburgh Airport. Now this option would set you back £157.69 one way. Whereas you look at the same on the XC site and it would cost you £290.90 and it suggest that you change trains at Birmingham New Street for a quicker AWC service to Edingburgh Waverley.

Now, admittedly you still got the cost of getting from Penzance to Newquay Airport.

On the basis of the above, I can understand why there is possibly not many people that would be doing the full journey between Penzance to Edingburgh/Aberdeen. This is why I do wonder if there should be Penzance to birmingham New Street shuttle services?

I believe Regional Railways ran a 12:30 from Penzance to Birmingham New Street using a 2-car Class 158, formed off the 07:05 from Swindon.

 

[The Planner]

On the basis of the above, I can understand why there is possibly not many people that would be doing the full journey between Penzance to Edingburgh/Aberdeen. This is why I do wonder if there should be Penzance to birmingham New Street shuttle services?

On top of what there is now? what for? Its hardly a shuttle either!

 

[RobShipway]

On top of what there is now? what for? Its hardly a shuttle either!

Replacing what is there now. Yes, it is hardly a shuttle, but if there is the paths available and stock, I think that you are going to get more regular trains between Penzance to Birmingham New Street where passengers can change to services further north and vice versa if travelling south.

 

[The Planner]

Replacing what is there now. Yes, it is hardly a shuttle, but if there is the paths available and stock, I think that you are going to get more regular trains between Penzance to Birmingham New Street where passengers can change to services further north and vice versa if travelling south.

That is bonkers, why would you can the part going further north? What is going to replace it? The current Penzance services connect into the Avanti in a way that cannot be improved.

 

[RobShipway]

That is bonkers, why would you can the part going further north? What is going to replace it? The current Penzance services connect into the Avanti in a way that cannot be improved.

But there is only two current Pezance services and by the time that those reach Birmingham New Street you have a very limited services that you can connect with there. In providing more services from Penzance, say on an hourly to 2 hourly basis to Birmingham New Street, that would actually provide more flexibility in times when people can travel from Penzance rather than having to leave between 6am - 9am to get anywhere further north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there is only two current Pezance services and by the time that those reach Birmingham New Street you have a very limited services that you can connect with there. In providing more services from Penzance, say on an hourly to 2 hourly basis to Birmingham New Street, that would actually provide more flexibility in times when people can travel from Penzance rather than having to leave between 6am - 9am to get anywhere further north.

I get the idea of adding more services to Penzance, but why would you do that by removing services to Newcastle? Surely you'd just be extending the Plymouths or Bristols?

 

[sprinterguy]

3. The following additional Reading - Newcastle diagram:
06:24 York to Reading.
10:45 Reading to Newcastle.
16:35 Newcastle to Reading.
This should reduce overcrowding on the 2 4-coach 06:45 York to Plymouth and 15:08 Edinburgh to Plymouth services up to Birmingham New Street.

That's a good shout, I like it: A modest but targeted way to enhance capacity where it's most needed.

My own targets would be at least 600 seats on all services except possibly Birmingham - Leicester stoppers and Nottingham - Birmingham terminators, and to have three trains per hour between Sheffield and Bristol in the peak, with two via Leeds and one via Doncaster.

Even assuming that there is a great deal of suppressed demand for Crosscountry travel, 600 seat trains would be overkill, especially at that sort of frequency. Under the current timetable, if every train was a 9-car Voyager pair (Offering 52 First, 410 Standard seats) then there would still be a lot of empty seats over at least some sections of many services.

Granted it would probably be quite possible to fill many of these seats by offering cheaper advance fares, and given that the York/Leeds - Birmingham service is largely just hourly these days then it really does need something more than 4 and 5-car Voyagers: Personally, I feel that the Crosscountry inter-city network would be in a better place from a passenger perspective if it returned to something approaching the train capacities (26-48 First, 350-400 Standard) and utilisation of the overhead wires that it had 25 years ago. Even 5/6-car Bi-mode Hitachi sets offering 300+ Standard class seats would be a satisfactory move in the right direction, but it looks like squeezing the existing assets will largely be the name of the game into the next decade (Though admittedly, even just the 7 additional ex-Avanti 221s could result in increased seating to some extent across quite a few services per day in the medium term).

But there is only two current Pezance services and by the time that those reach Birmingham New Street you have a very limited services that you can connect with there. In providing more services from Penzance, say on an hourly to 2 hourly basis to Birmingham New Street, that would actually provide more flexibility in times when people can travel from Penzance rather than having to leave between 6am - 9am to get anywhere further north.

If the units were available, I would suggest extending alternate (or even just a couple at appropriate times across the day) Bristol - Manchester trains to start back from Penzance, though the connection into the northbound Avanti service at New Street would be quite lengthy, and the Liverpool connection quite tight. And it does complicate the unit diagramming when services aren't just starting or finishing their in marginal time at the start or end of diagrams.

 

[irish_rail]

If the units were available, I would suggest extending alternate (or even just a couple at appropriate times across the day) Bristol - Manchester trains to start back from Penzance, though the connection into the northbound Avanti service at New Street would be quite lengthy, and the Liverpool connection quite tight. And it does complicate the unit diagramming when services aren't just starting or finishing their in marginal time at the start or end of diagrams.

If XC where to run 2 hourly out of Penzance to say Manchester, that would help to see off the GWR castle sets I would have thought. If the voyagers are available post Avanti then maybe this would be a way of taking some pressure off the GWR fleet whilst giving XC some decent use able services connecting NW and SW. Also provides some genuine competition in Cornwall.

 

[Devonian]

Even assuming that there is a great deal of suppressed demand for Crosscountry travel, 600 seat trains would be overkill, especially at that sort of frequency. Under the current timetable, if every train was a 9-car Voyager pair (Offering 52 First, 410 Standard seats) then there would still be a lot of empty seats over at least some sections of many services.

Granted it would probably be quite possible to fill many of these seats by offering cheaper advance fares, and given that the York/Leeds - Birmingham service is largely just hourly these days then it really does need something more than 4 and 5-car Voyagers: Personally, I feel that the Crosscountry inter-city network would be in a better place from a passenger perspective if it returned to something approaching the train capacities (26-48 First, 350-400 Standard)

I would rather see empty seats (aka "space for passengers to spread out in comfort") with the potential for growth on some sections than regularly crowded trains on other sections discouraging long-distance travel. In the unlikely event that we end up with more surplus Voyagers than takers, suggest reform them into longer single trains to give better capacity than doubled-up trains, improve distribution of passengers through busy trains, reduce crew requirements and improve access to catering. Two five-cars reformed with one first class and one standard class driving car dropped would give just over 460 seats (roughly 26 F, ?438 S), versus about 400 (52 F, ?348 S) on a double-four-car Voyager of the same length.

I'd also like to see refurbished interiors with more tables - too many families have to sit apart from their children at present - and possibly replace at least one accessible WC with two adjacent space-saver WCs (as on many continental trains) to improve lavatory provision to an average of one WC per carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd also like to see refurbished interiors with more tables - too many families have to sit apart from their children at present - and possibly replace at least one accessible WC with two adjacent space-saver WCs (as on many continental trains) to improve lavatory provision to an average of one WC per carriage.

The Class 397 arguably looks a lot more like XC could do with looking, though I think I'd probably go for slightly fewer tables as that arguably has too many, not everyone likes them (the Class 158 original layout alternating tables with a pair of airlines is probably about bob-on - legroom was poor, but that was mostly because of poor seat design, it's cavernous with the same layout with ironing boards). But to do that without losing capacity it means longer trains - Avanti Voyager Coach D is lovely, but the capacity is incredibly low.

 

[JonathanH]

Also provides some genuine competition in Cornwall.

Is it really XC's role to run half of the stopping services in Cornwall, or would the extra stops go in the London services?

 

[A S Leib]

Is it really XC's role to run half of the stopping services in Cornwall, or would the extra stops go in the London services?

There's still six trains per day from Cardiff which don't go south of Taunton; would extending those be any easier than CrossCountry services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If XC where to run 2 hourly out of Penzance to say Manchester, that would help to see off the GWR castle sets I would have thought. If the voyagers are available post Avanti then maybe this would be a way of taking some pressure off the GWR fleet whilst giving XC some decent use able services connecting NW and SW. Also provides some genuine competition in Cornwall.

Integration, not competition, would be of benefit to internal Cornwall journeys. The fares aren't that high anyway. The integration of FGW and Thames Trains/Wessex Trains really has brought a lot of benefit.