Night shift fatigue (RAIB report)

[G136GREYHOUND]

Night rate ? Where's that come from ? Can I have it ? Never had it in 20 years . This is the elephant in the cupboard in very sleepy pyjamas . As said I am one of the very few where I drive with the gumption to phone in and say : " I'm ferked , I'm not coming in " I know it makes me as popular as mud, equally I know there is nothing they can do. The railway is a dinosaur in this way, reactive not proactive, never was a report better named than Hidden.

Legislation is needed to firmly tie down these unsafe shift patterns and some claims for diabetes etc need to be made

 

[Bromley boy]

Night rate ? Where's that come from ? Can I have it ? Never had it in 20 years . This is the elephant in the cupboard in very sleepy pyjamas . As said I am one of the very few where I drive with the gumption to phone in and say : " I'm ferked , I'm not coming in " I know it makes me as popular as mud, equally I know there is nothing they can do. The railway is a dinosaur in this way, reactive not proactive, never was a report better named than Hidden.

Legislation is needed to firmly tie down these unsafe shift patterns and some claims for diabetes etc need to be made

When you do this, so they dock you pay or try and argue that you should go sick?

It’s absolutely the right thing to do. If you are feeling too tired to drive it’s simply dangerous to do so.

 

[greatkingrat]

Where do you get that from? There's no such thing as "night rate", nights are pass and parcel of the regular shift structure.

Each TOC will have their own terms and conditions, just because your company may not pay anything extra doesn't mean nobody pays an enhanced rate.

 

[greatkingrat]

It's clear that 12 hours between shifts simply isn't sufficient. When crew are being rostered little more than that bare minimum in some cases, and then have to include travelling home and back again, eating, sleeping and generally functioning as a human being within that time between finishing work and returning, the problem is glaringly obvious. Similarly, the generations old practice of completing a late shift on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, having a nominal 'day off' on Sunday and then being expected to rise again in the early hours of Monday morning, very clearly makes being properly rested a complete impossibility. This is a particular concern when the start of a week of early shifts is marked by substantial fatigue. Simple proposals such as extending the 12 hour barrier to 14 or 16 hours, grouping early and late shifts into blocks of two weeks or more rather than alternating weekly, and ensuring that late - to - early shift rotations include a barrier period of more than single day off, are long overdue for serious consideration.

I think part of the problem is people living further away from their workplace. If you live within 30 minutes of the depot, then with a 12 hour turnaround that gives you 11 hours to eat, sleep etc. which I think is sufficient to be properly rested for the next shift. The problem comes when other people are living an hour or more away.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Never been docked pay. I've never taken the mick and only done it genuinely, usually on where we had a week of nights , Sunday "off" ha de ha, and then in at 0400 Monday for 90 stop worse turn in link.

Night rate ? On my 5th toc and foc and never heard of night rate !

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Thirty minutes of the Depot ? Ok . Plus sufficient time to get in not to be late plus get up time plus swapping earlies to late . It does have a bearing obviously but few companies allow your application if you live over an hour away in any case and I've seen them make people move house when they try to blag it

 

[ComUtoR]

If you live within 30 minutes of the depot, then with a 12 hour turnaround that gives you 11 hours to eat, sleep etc. which I think is sufficient to be properly rested for the next shift.

Compare that to a 'typical' 9-5'er who is getting 16hrs between shifts. We get less time between shifts and we are 'safety critical' 12hr between turns hurts. Thankfully it doesn't occur that much and when changing from late/early we have a rostering restriction that helps

 

[TractiveEffort]

Compare that to a 'typical' 9-5'er who is getting 16hrs between shifts. We get less time between shifts and we are 'safety critical' 12hr between turns hurts. Thankfully it doesn't occur that much and when changing from late/early we have a rostering restriction that helps

A 9-5er does exist, but many have to do more than that, even if they don’t they are stuck with Sat & Sun off and back in Monday, many railway shifts are longer than 8 hours and encompass unsocialable hours, but many roles are 35hr PW or 37hr PW and result in extended periods of days off. Depends on what suits.

 

[Bromley boy]

Each TOC will have their own terms and conditions, just because your company may not pay anything extra doesn't mean nobody pays an enhanced rate.

True, but I can’t think of a single TOC that pays a “night rate”, so the previous statement that there is a “greed element” to night shifts is dubious to say the least.

EDIT: I see another driver has posted above that he has worked at five TOC/FOCs and has never heard of “night rate”, so could whhistle please explain what he has based his comment on.

I rather suspect “night rate” is a figment of his imagination.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

True, but I can’t think of a single TOC that pays a “night rate”, so the previous statement that there is a “greed element” to night shifts is dubious to say the least.

EDIT: I see another driver has posted above that he has worked at five TOC/FOCs and has never heard of “night rate”, so could whhistle please explain what he has based his comment on.

I rather suspect “night rate” is a figment of his imagination.

There are a couple of TOCs who have a "book on fee" for shifts starts at what would be considered the extreme end of anti-social (nights), it's an old BR T&C that hasn't been sold yet, but is is very nominal in comparison to the hourly rate, not normally more than 10% of what would be earned from the shift anyway so I wouldn't believe greed comes into it either.

 

[whhistle]

Where do you get that from? There's no such thing as "night rate", nights are pass and parcel of the regular shift structure.

Hmm.
I see where you're coming from, but perhaps you have simply mis-understood my terminology.

Some payslips will have a lower value because there has been no night premium added for that 4-weekly period. However, others will be higher as the "night rate" has been applied to X number of shifts during that 4-weekly period. There can also be weekend rates and in some cases, overtime rates. Gets more fun when you have an overtime Sunday night shift - that's three additional premiums added to the basic wage for that shift.

Perhaps some companies pay the same amount every month, which already includes premiums for night working when averaged over the year.

EDIT: I see another driver has posted above that he has worked at five TOC/FOCs and has never heard of “night rate”, so could whhistle please explain what he has based his comment on.
I rather suspect “night rate” is a figment of his imagination.

Congratulations on boiling down to simply being rude... or trying to be funny by being offensive. Which is it? I don't check this forum every day - give a few days for a reply at least...
I based my comments on my experience of being paid from working in the rail industry in a variety of roles for different train companies.
Out of interest, what makes you think I am a he?

Compare that to a 'typical' 9-5'er who is getting 16hrs between shifts. We get less time between shifts and we are 'safety critical' 12hr between turns hurts. Thankfully it doesn't occur that much and when changing from late/early we have a rostering restriction that helps

The problem with that calculation is it doesn't take into effect rush hour traffic either.

Let's take the the 30-minute away from depot meaning 11 hours between shifts as a basis.

9-5 worker would have to leave at least an hour before they're due to start. That leaves only 14 hours between shifts. If others catch the train to work and work on the train, that gap closes on the 11 hours a Train Driver would have.

But then if Drivers are unhappy with the conditions, sort it through the Union - I mean, that's what they're there for aren't they?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with most of the comments here and I read with interest the report. At least one TOC is cutting the working week by an hour to help with this too.

I'm also certain there was an EU Directive that is due/was due to make provisions to include commuting time within the working hours. This would mean the 12-hour rest period would start when you got home rather than when you left work. I suppose they'd have to base it on "as the crow flies" instead of actual timings.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When a driver is doing nights, will that sometimes involve them parking a train up at a designated location and "shutting it down"?

 

[Bromley boy]

Hmm.
I see where you're coming from, but perhaps you have simply mis-understood my terminology.

Some payslips will have a lower value because there has been no night premium added for that 4-weekly period. However, others will be higher as the "night rate" has been applied to X number of shifts during that 4-weekly period. There can also be weekend rates and in some cases, overtime rates. Gets more fun when you have an overtime Sunday night shift - that's three additional premiums added to the basic wage for that shift.

Perhaps some companies pay the same amount every month, which already includes premiums for night working when averaged over the year.

Well, thanks for clarifying what you meant, but I think we have established "night rate" is something that is no longer present in drivers' Ts and Cs at the vast majority of TOCs. Increasingly "weekend rate" isn't present either with Sundays falling inside the working week for more and more drivers.

Congratulations on boiling down to simply being rude... or trying to be funny by being offensive. Which is it? I don't check this forum every day - give a few days for a reply at least...
I based my comments on my experience of being paid from working in the rail industry in a variety of roles for different train companies.
Out of interest, what makes you think I am a he?

I was neither being rude nor trying to be being funny.

I took exception to your previous (quite rude!) post where you appeared to blame the issues being discussed on staff resisting change and were very quick to link fatigue issues to greed in seeking enhanced rates, which simply do not exist for the majority of drivers, as has been established on this thread.

No idea of your gender but it becomes laborious to type out "he or she" constantly and the vast majority of forum contributors are male.

 

[baz962]

Interested to know if anyone treat's the day before the night shift as a night. If I do a night it is only on ot as my job does not have night's but other jobs in my company do, so I finish on a late 11pm but stay up till 4 or 5 then sleep in the day and go to work that night.

 

[Bromley boy]

When a driver is doing nights, will that sometimes involve them parking a train up at a designated location and "shutting it down"?

Shutting down (or "cutting out")' is usually done by the driver who leaves the unit at its overnight stabling point (which can be a platform or a siding). In third rail land it is usually only done where an isolation is due to taken place for engineering work. Depending on location the platform staff/shunters inform drivers if their unit needs to be cut out.

The reason for doing it is that, if units were not cut out, they would switch to emergency battery power when the current was isolated. The battery would be exhausted in 45 mins or so and the next driver would find the unit completely dead and impossible to power up again, even after current was restored.

Night shifts include train preps which would involve cutting the units in (assuming power had been restored). This can be time consuming as air pressure has to build up sufficiently for the brakes to be released. This can take 15-20 minutes or longer.

 

[alxndr]

Interested to know if anyone treat's the day before the night shift as a night. If I do a night it is only on ot as my job does not have night's but other jobs in my company do, so I finish on a late 11pm but stay up till 4 or 5 then sleep in the day and go to work that night.

I tend to stay up late if I can, until 3-4am, but that's more because I'm a night owl and have an "excuse" to do so than conscious preparation.

 

[Flywaver1]

Each TOC will have their own terms and conditions, just because your company may not pay anything extra doesn't mean nobody pays an enhanced rate.

Where do you get that from? There's no such thing as "night rate", nights are pass and parcel of the regular shift structure.

On XC there is Night Rate.Also if you sign on before 5am it is half Night Rate.

 

[driver_m]

On XC there is Night Rate.Also if you sign on before 5am it is half Night Rate.

So does VTWC. It's a single payment though per night shift done. Also the same for booking on before 5am.

 

[Bromley boy]

So does VTWC. It's a single payment though per night shift done. Also the same for booking on before 5am.

I'll extend an apology to whhistle, it's a bigger thing than I realised - although I maintain my position, in that I doubt any drivers maximise night shifts to benefit from a relatively small uplift.

It's certainly not known to those of us who slum it down in third rail land. We could do with it, with the house prices down here .

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think it's high time the Hidden rules were reviewed. There is talk about fatigue constantly in the railway industry, and yet the one thing that never changes are the shift patterns that cause that fatigue. Steadily, more and more of the responsibility for managing fatigue has been loaded onto staff, whilst there appears to be precious little desire to pass rulings that would tame such damaging workloads. With each briefing, notice or training session staff are further reminded of their obligations not to come to work tired, and yet as we see here there are scant few affected individuals who feel comfortable taking action if they are. And indeed, most are seemingly fatigued regularly. It's the elephant in the room, and Tramlink have found to their enormous cost how dangerous it can be. It's worthy of note that motorists are now being steadily encouraged to view 'driving tired' as the new drink driving, alcohol being a massive no-no on the railway. Food for thought.

It's clear that 12 hours between shifts simply isn't sufficient. When crew are being rostered little more than that bare minimum in some cases, and then have to include travelling home and back again, eating, sleeping and generally functioning as a human being within that time between finishing work and returning, the problem is glaringly obvious. Similarly, the generations old practice of completing a late shift on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, having a nominal 'day off' on Sunday and then being expected to rise again in the early hours of Monday morning, very clearly makes being properly rested a complete impossibility. This is a particular concern when the start of a week of early shifts is marked by substantial fatigue. Simple proposals such as extending the 12 hour barrier to 14 or 16 hours, grouping early and late shifts into blocks of two weeks or more rather than alternating weekly, and ensuring that late - to - early shift rotations include a barrier period of more than single day off, are long overdue for serious consideration.

Excellent post!
You've a great point, in particular, about extending the minimum "barrier" from booking off to booking on.
Waking up 2 hours earlier than you woke up the previous day is tiring and unpleasant, and probably the limit of what should someone in safety-critical work should be doing routinely. This equates to 14h minimum barriers on 8h shifts - but why not take into account the (often greater than 8h) shift length, and impose a minimum booking on to booking on time limit of 22h? Even go one further and take a page out of the bus/truck rules, and limit the frequency of these - max. 2 22h cycles in a week, and the rest need to be at least 24h?

 

[tsr]

Interested to know if anyone treat's the day before the night shift as a night. If I do a night it is only on ot as my job does not have night's but other jobs in my company do, so I finish on a late 11pm but stay up till 4 or 5 then sleep in the day and go to work that night.

This is exactly what I used to do when I did night turns - it’s also what one or two people in my family have done in the medical industry.

I used to do late shifts which took me up to about 0100, then stay up until 0530, try to sleep until at least 1300 ish, and then treat the upcoming night turn as a “very late” turn - complete with breakfast about 1500!

It was easier to catch up on sleep by then having 5-6 hours in the morning straight after the last night, wake up about lunchtime, then feel shattered at a normal bedtime about 2230 and try to cram in 9 hours. If possible!

I don’t do nights now, though it could theoretically be required of me in extreme circumstances. If I change jobs in my current circumstances then I’d be likely to pick them up again, with a vengeance. And I’d probably try to go back to the above described pattern.

Excellent post!
You've a great point, in particular, about extending the minimum "barrier" from booking off to booking on.
Waking up 2 hours earlier than you woke up the previous day is tiring and unpleasant, and probably the limit of what should someone in safety-critical work should be doing routinely. This equates to 14h minimum barriers on 8h shifts - but why not take into account the (often greater than 8h) shift length, and impose a minimum booking on to booking on time limit of 22h? Even go one further and take a page out of the bus/truck rules, and limit the frequency of these - max. 2 22h cycles in a week, and the rest need to be at least 24h?

Broadly speaking I’d be inclined to agree with your post and the one you quoted.

But even less extreme sounding things need looking at too. The whole system can be fairly brutal.

I have experienced plenty of bits of railway rostering where the lates actually start in the morning and then you wander around the booking on times until 1700 on Friday - or the exact opposite sequence. This really destroys any sort of reliability within family life. But perhaps the worst I found for fatigue is a set of relatively benign early turns ranging around 0600, then ending the sequence with a 10+ hour final shift at 0500 Saturday. Utterly bonkers and despised by almost everyone who’s done it...

 

[InOban]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41666563
A summary of the evidence concerning shift work.

As a passenger, reading this thread makes me wish for driverless trains!

 

[ComUtoR]

As a passenger, reading this thread makes me wish for driverless trains!

Me too. I can catch a nap through the core \o/

In the mean time for the next 20 odd years or so. I better stay awake.

 

[RPM]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41666563
A summary of the evidence concerning shift work.

As a passenger, reading this thread makes me wish for driverless trains!

Except that driverless trains would still require a member of staff to control the doors, who would need to be alert and not suffering from fatigue...

 

[Cavan]

Fatigue is going to be a hot topic over next few months with various raib reports suggesting fatigue as a contributing factor.

Think many tocs are going to have to look again at the old 12hr vs 8hr debates. I think eights are going to be back in favour with obvious implications on pay and staff numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And proper breaks. When working in an office I find a significant difference in alertness at the end of the working day between having worked lunch/sat at my desk to eat it and having taken a full hour lunch break including going out for a walk. So much so that I generally prefer to work late than not to take a full hour for lunch.

 

[Llanigraham]

And proper breaks. When working in an office I find a significant difference in alertness at the end of the working day between having worked lunch/sat at my desk to eat it and having taken a full hour lunch break including going out for a walk. So much so that I generally prefer to work late than not to take a full hour for lunch.

Try doing a 12 hour shift in a single manned signal box, when you have to fit meals, drinks and loo visits between trains!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try doing a 12 hour shift in a single manned signal box, when you have to fit meals, drinks and loo visits between trains!

Not something that would appeal to me I'm afraid, the solitude would kill me. (I know by contrast there are many people who find that the most appealing part of the job).

 

[Sunset route]

Fatigue is going to be a hot topic over next few months with various raib reports suggesting fatigue as a contributing factor.

Think many tocs are going to have to look again at the old 12hr vs 8hr debates. I think eights are going to be back in favour with obvious implications on pay and staff numbers.

Not just TOCs but also NR and the signaller community. We’ve been having some lively debates about the amount of days away from work you get with a 12hr rosters against the length of the working day including the commute to and from work, but in the end there is no real clear winner between 8hr or 12hr that fits all life styles and family commitments, so we compromised and went for one 8hr roster and one 12hr roster and the signallers chose what they believed was better for them.

 

[Antman]

Try doing a 12 hour shift in a single manned signal box, when you have to fit meals, drinks and loo visits between trains!

Aren't you legally required to have a proper break with no work related distractions?