Night working for passenger TOCs

[SteveL9]

How likely is night working for passenger TOCs?

Obviously it seems fairly common for freight, but given most passenger services (near me at least) finish around midnight and don’t start again till around 5am, it doesn’t seem like there’s any need to work through the night? Even taking in to account getting trains to and from depots etc.

Is it more a case of some very early starts and very late finishes?

 

[DaveTM]

Early starts and late finishes are not a good reason for rostering nights. A driver who books on very early is available during the morning rush and is working when later early starts are having breaks. A late finisher starts in time for the evening rush and is working when earlier later starts are having breaks. A night turn driver is not available to cover anyone's breaks and is not around when the service needs the most drivers.

Of the 60 or so weekday jobs at my depot (which doesn't run trains in passenger service between about 1am and 5am), 2 are night turns. During that time trains are shunted between platforms and depot for cleaning, emptying of toilets, and external washing. There is also the possibility in winter time that the night turn driver may be required to run a ghost train, with the purpose of breaking ice off the third rail before the start of passenger service.

Therefore at our depot, about 1 in 30 of the shifts will be night turns. However, the night jobs and latest spare turns are rostered to the bottom link. If a booked night turn driver is sick/holiday/gap-in-roster, the night turn goes to the latest spare driver, which is again usually a driver in the bottom couple of links. Top link drivers will almost never see night turns unless they work rest days, and so bottom link drivers see the lion's share of nights. As a newly qualified driver here you will see a lot of night turns!

 

[greatkingrat]

There are usually some drivers who prefer nights, so you can probably swap off your night turns if you don't want to do them.

 

[SteveL9]

I’m in the application process so just enquiring out of curiosity at the moment. I wouldn’t mind the odd night shift but I imagine it’s better sleep wise if you can still go to bed late or get up very early, rather than having to sleep in the middle of the day.

Useful to understand that there are some logistical reasons for passenger night shifts.

 

[ExRes]

I’m in the application process so just enquiring out of curiosity at the moment. I wouldn’t mind the odd night shift but I imagine it’s better sleep wise if you can still go to bed late or get up very early, rather than having to sleep in the middle of the day.

Useful to understand that there are some logistical reasons for passenger night shifts.

From personal experience I'd always rather work a night than get up at, let's say, 3am to get into work to start a shift, the most trouble I ever had with fighting off drowsiness was from early starts especially with the added problem of an hours commute to the depot

 

[choochoochoo]

How likely is night working for passenger TOCs?

Obviously it seems fairly common for freight, but given most passenger services (near me at least) finish around midnight and don’t start again till around 5am, it doesn’t seem like there’s any need to work through the night? Even taking in to account getting trains to and from depots etc.

Is it more a case of some very early starts and very late finishes?

Night shifts usually involve moving trains into depots at the end of the day and moving them out again in the morning. Drivers are sometimes required to shunt units around yards during night shifts. They are also sometimes required to prepare (perform checks on) trains for the next day service. There are also test trains that may need to be driven for various purposes during the night.

That's what most of the night work is made up of where I am.

 

[Starmill]

It's location dependent. Some passenger depots will have night turns, though they're likely to be a small percentage unless it's a depot that works frequent all-night services e.g. London Overground, Thameslink. Most won't have them.

 

[whoosh]

How likely is night working for passenger TOCs?

Obviously it seems fairly common for freight, but given most passenger services (near me at least) finish around midnight and don’t start again till around 5am, it doesn’t seem like there’s any need to work through the night? Even taking in to account getting trains to and from depots etc.

Is it more a case of some very early starts and very late finishes?

Great Northern:

Hornsey Inner Link every five weeks! Outer Link approximately every 7 weeks.

Welwyn Garden City 6 weeks in 48, or 6 weeks in 40 depending which Link.

Cambridge 9 weeks in 52 (average between 1 in 5 and 1 in 6), or 7 in 42 (average 1 in 6) depending which Link.

Hitchin every 7 weeks.

Kings Cross 5 weeks in 35.

Peterborough 8 weeks in 64, or 3 in 24 depending which Link.

Not sure if Kings Lynn have nights at the moment. Some timetables they have had nights and others not.

So, more than you think, I'd imagine?

From personal experience I'd always rather work a night than get up at, let's say, 3am to get into work to start a shift, the most trouble I ever had with fighting off drowsiness was from early starts especially with the added problem of an hours commute to the depot

Me too. If you're at work between 2 and 4 am, you should be on nights in my opinion, not finishing an "afternoon" shift, and certainly not starting a morning one. Especially as if it is a morning shift, it could potentially be surrounded by more sociable morning shifts on the other days that week, so starting work at that time would really throw your body clock!

 

[Horizon22]

There’s a few, but there definitely aren't many at each depot - perhaps 1 in 20 or 25, maybe even less. Even if they are doing the very last and very first depot duties, there’s often a lot of down time on diagrams I’ve seen. Often the driver turn might be involved in prepping berthed trains for the morning service if they’ve sat in stations overnight.

Some passenger TOCs do of course run through trains through the night; off the top of my head I can think of Thameslink & GWR Paddington - Reading and of course Caledonian Sleeper and Night Riviera although those are specialised. But these are generally few and far between.

So it’s a part yes, but normally a very small part as other duties are covered by the very earliest starts (0300-0400) and the very latest finishes (0100-0200). I personally really wouldn’t want to do that and would rather just do a night, but I think most TOCs pay a night rate of some sort so try and cut this down with the extreme early & late shifts. But then again everyone has their shift preferences!

 

[driver9000]

Nights will be location and workload dependent and the closer to a large depot you are would likely increase the chances of nights. My depot has a small yard nearby which we stable trains in but we don't have any night turns. Trains are prepared by the early turn Drivers who bring the off in the morning. We had a night turn for a short while a couple of years ago which involved taking the last train to Longsight and then dossing in the mess room until it was time to bring the first train of the morning off. I don't like nights so I was glad when the jobs were recast meaning we didn't need it anymore.

 

[Magdalia]

Great Northern:

Hornsey Inner Link every five weeks! Outer Link approximately every 7 weeks.

Welwyn Garden City 6 weeks in 48, or 6 weeks in 40 depending which Link.

Cambridge 9 weeks in 52 (average between 1 in 5 and 1 in 6), or 7 in 42 (average 1 in 6) depending which Link.

Hitchin every 7 weeks.

Kings Cross 5 weeks in 35.

Peterborough 8 weeks in 64, or 3 in 24 depending which Link.

Not sure if Kings Lynn have nights at the moment. Some timetables they have had nights and others not.

So, more than you think, I'd imagine?

A long time ago, in the days of FCC, I once got to see a set of drivers' diagrams. They were very cleverly designed into earlies, lates and nights, with only small variations in start and finish times. The night turns were mostly a few end of service trains, a lot of shunting in sidings, and then one or two early morning trains to finish. It was an impressive piece of work. The one exception was Kings Lynn, which at that time had no night turns. Someone had to finish on the 2315 from Kings Cross and someone had to start on the 0455 to Kings Cross. Fortunately at Kings Lynn the last 2 trains in and the first 2 out are stabled in the platforms, so no need for any overnight shunting.

 

[IKB]

As above - nights are location dependant. If your home depot is a berthing depot then there is a high chance of night turns. With depots that don't involve beginning or end of service trains (ie those located mid-route) then nights are less likely.

It's not all bad news. Some of the old boys like nights as it often involves minimal driving, so swaps are possible.

 

[Class2ldn]

At thameslink as has been mentioned we work trains through the night, trying to maintain concentration at 0240 working a train for an all stations service which takes over 3 hours back down south can be a bit tough, especially after only having around 45-50 minutes break after already working one up to Bedford.
Its funny because at my depot you can never get rid of them lol.
7 of them on the bounce is not enjoyable either and because of our shift pattern you finish on nights Wednesday morning, Friday you're back in on earlies. Basically the 2nd week you're shattered.
Think they are about every 12 weeks give or take.
Most people book them off , they are always uncovered especially Friday and Saturday lol

 

[IKB]

At thameslink as has been mentioned we work trains through the night, trying to maintain concentration at 0240 working a train for an all stations service which takes over 3 hours back down south can be a bit tough, especially after only having around 45-50 minutes break after already working one up to Bedford.
Its funny because at my depot you can never get rid of them lol.
7 of them on the bounce is not enjoyable either and because of our shift pattern you finish on nights Wednesday morning, Friday you're back in on earlies. Basically the 2nd week you're shattered.
Think they are about every 12 weeks give or take.
Most people book them off , they are always uncovered especially Friday and Saturday lol

Note to self : never work for Thameslink

 

[Class2ldn]

It used to be so much better, the shifts can be quite tough, generally you start on late earlies after but then you end up working till 3,4pm so you feel like you're at work all day for the next week after.
At my old depot we used to have a lot of jobs that done quite a few empty trips but at this depot its just constant working through the night, hardly any downtime. All stations on the mml isn't ideal especially when you're only picking up a handful of passengers in a 12 car.
Signallers are notorious around London bridge for putting you all over the shop as well so you really have to keep your wits about you, very easy to get a wrong route up there on nights

 

[Sm5]

Before covid, my last train home arrived around 01.15.. the station was unmanned from about 9pm ish, and the guy at the nearby main station would drive around the local half dozen and lock them up.

Post covid, my last train arrives 11.30, and everything is done by midnight… good for rostering, but I have to now leave London before last orders, and in some cases before a Show or a Movie ends.

If not I can join the late night Battle of Billinton Hill, with hundreds (yes it really is between Thus-Sat nights) of taxi queuers trying to get home to their now silent dead end branchline homes which are slowly devaluing, increasing in interest rates whilst becoming less desirable commuting hubs.

1st train out used to be 5am, now its 6am, though admittedly I’m not up for either, before or after Covid.

its becoming a daytime only railway in the south.

 

[IKB]

It used to be so much better, the shifts can be quite tough, generally you start on late earlies after but then you end up working till 3,4pm so you feel like you're at work all day for the next week after.
At my old depot we used to have a lot of jobs that done quite a few empty trips but at this depot its just constant working through the night, hardly any downtime. All stations on the mml isn't ideal especially when you're only picking up a handful of passengers in a 12 car.
Signallers are notorious around London bridge for putting you all over the shop as well so you really have to keep your wits about you, very easy to get a wrong route up there on nights

That sounds tough. I can cope with a few shunts and preps on a night duty but driving service trains all night is grim.

 

[Class2ldn]

Its why they are constantly uncovered and cancelled, because of the 2 airports they have an obligation to run them through the night but everybody hates them.

 

[43066]

There are usually some drivers who prefer nights, so you can probably swap off your night turns if you don't want to do them.

This. I haven’t done a night shift for years.

Obviously getting rid of them will likely be more difficult at depots with significant night operations.

 

[choochoochoo]

At thameslink as has been mentioned we work trains through the night, trying to maintain concentration at 0240 working a train for an all stations service which takes over 3 hours back down south can be a bit tough, especially after only having around 45-50 minutes break after already working one up to Bedford.
Its funny because at my depot you can never get rid of them lol.
7 of them on the bounce is not enjoyable either and because of our shift pattern you finish on nights Wednesday morning, Friday you're back in on earlies. Basically the 2nd week you're shattered.
Think they are about every 12 weeks give or take.
Most people book them off , they are always uncovered especially Friday and Saturday lol

Anyone got a diagram of a Thameslink night turn ? Just so when I complain about doing nights, I can look at it and think how lucky I am.

 

[387star]

At my depot trains are refuelled sent through the washer prepped for the next day and have their toilet tanks emptied at night. They also need to be stabled in a certain order. We have no depot drivers so despite not running a 24 hour train service we have two night turns plus a very early start to accommodate depot duties

At thameslink as has been mentioned we work trains through the night, trying to maintain concentration at 0240 working a train for an all stations service which takes over 3 hours back down south can be a bit tough, especially after only having around 45-50 minutes break after already working one up to Bedford.
Its funny because at my depot you can never get rid of them lol.
7 of them on the bounce is not enjoyable either and because of our shift pattern you finish on nights Wednesday morning, Friday you're back in on earlies. Basically the 2nd week you're shattered.
Think they are about every 12 weeks give or take.
Most people book them off , they are always uncovered especially Friday and Saturday lol

Interestingly TL don't run through the night on Saturday from memory? I used to find cover for them at Three Bridges but guess I was lucky plus the depot was tiny then.

Anyone got a diagram of a Thameslink night turn ? Just so when I complain about doing nights, I can look at it and think how lucky I am.

It's awful. I moved from Three Bridges TL Depot to Horsham TL depot partly to escape nights though I believe Horsham TL have them now too?

I remember a midnight departure off Brighton arriving around 0215 in Bedford then I think the 0315 back or something like that. As mentioned you stop at more stations at night as it's all stops on the MML plus staff stops and slow south london diverts with risks of wrong routes everywhere. Throw in smoke alarm activations for people riding the trains high.

 

[Class2ldn]

At my depot trains are refuelled sent through the washer prepped for the next day and have their toilet tanks emptied at night. They also need to be stabled in a certain order. We have no depot drivers so despite not running a 24 hour train service we have two night turns plus a very early start to accommodate depot duties


Interestingly TL don't run through the night on Saturday from memory? I used to find cover for them at Three Bridges but guess I was lucky plus the depot was tiny then.


It's awful. I moved from Three Bridges TL Depot to Horsham TL depot partly to escape nights though I believe Horsham TL have them now too?

I remember a midnight departure off Brighton arriving around 0215 in Bedford then I think the 0315 back or something like that. As mentioned you stop at more stations at night as it's all stops on the MML plus staff stops and slow south london diverts with risks of wrong routes everywhere. Throw in smoke alarm activations for people riding the trains high.

They do run through the night every day mate, basically the same diagrams on weekends with a couple of variations, there's no services to Brighton after about 1am but the Brighton drivers go up to Bedford and come back for the first trains.

 

[43066]

Interestingly TL don't run through the night on Saturday from memory? I used to find cover for them at Three Bridges but guess I was lucky plus the depot was tiny then.

They do now!

I remember a midnight departure off Brighton arriving around 0215 in Bedford then I think the 0315 back or something like that. As mentioned you stop at more stations at night as it's all stops on the MML plus staff stops and slow south london diverts with risks of wrong routes everywhere. Throw in smoke alarm activations for people riding the trains high.

That is utterly grim. Even late evening TL trains often stink of wacky-baccy, so I dread to think what the 0300 ones must be like. Quite a few colleagues commute on them and often feel a bit of a target due to the types who use them.

 

[Polar]

Not all tl or gn depots are like that. Personally I prefer nights. At Cambridge our worst job is work to London into Hornsey then empty to kings Cross in the morning and in service back to cambridge. Most jobs are a trip to London and back and maybe platform one in the morning. Alot less work then a 4am start would do anyway and still easy to give away of you dint like nights.

 

[Class2ldn]

Let's be fair though GN don't do much at anytime of the day let alone nights, especially on Saturdays lol

 

[eastersunday]

Does the Thameslink Cricklewood depot do nights for drivers too? What are their routes like?

 

[Class2ldn]

I'm pretty sure all TL depots have nights, most of their work will probably be preps during the night, maybe a late sutton trip or something.

 

[IKB]

Let's be fair though GN don't do much at anytime of the day let alone nights, especially on Saturdays lol

Shots fired

 

[Chucky]

There can be a significant difference between the content of different night shifts. As seen above, certain operators like Thameslink run passenger trains all night and will get their pound of flesh, other places you might just be doing preps and shunts with a big slice of downtime. Some night shifts you will get a chance to grab a power nap for an hour or two, others you'll have absolutely no chance.

Nights are a big incident risk, especially for anyone working on the mainline towards the end of the duty when every fibre of brain and body is crying out for natural sleep. There was a buffer stop collision at Kings Cross a few years ago as a result of a night shift driver slipping into microsleep.

From the RAIB safety digest:

3. Cause of the accident​

The accident occurred because the driver was suffering from fatigue and apparently experienced a microsleep in the last few seconds of the approach to the buffer stops. The driver reported being aware of passing the TPWS sensor but then briefly closed her eyes because they felt tired and were stinging. When she opened them, she was close to the buffer stops and, although she made an emergency brake application, it was too late to avoid a collision.

Full report here:

Collision with buffer stops at King’s Cross station, London, 15 August 2017

www.gov.uk

 

[Need2]

I'm pretty sure all TL depots have nights, most of their work will probably be preps during the night, maybe a late sutton trip or something.

Except Ashford.
But then again they don’t do much during the rest of the day either!