No trains to call at Altnabreac for the foreseeable future

[Killingworth]

The installation of the tactile paving slabs is a strange one. Network Rail appeared at night on road rail vehicles to carry out the work yet were filmed and prevented from doing so. .....

I'm interested to know how and when the paving was completed as a few days later it was in place yet the couple have never mentioned it again.

How on earth can the cost of tactile be justified at a station with such low usage - and many of them just collecting station stops?

If I lived there, leaving aside ownership, that would irritate me.

 

[kermit]

The installation of the tactile paving slabs is a strange one. Network Rail appeared at night on road rail vehicles to carry out the work yet were filmed and prevented from doing so. Surely the couple have no argument here as their driveway and so called garden were not used.

I'm interested to know how and when the paving was completed as a few days later it was in place yet the couple have never mentioned it again.

It's difficult to tell from the spin-filled videos, but it looks as though the couple tried to intervene and send the paving workers away from "their" land (which they say now includes the entire area of the "former" station and more besides), but oddy stopped when the BTP, who had shown the patience of saints, uttered the magic words "You do not have to say anything". After which it seems the work was completed in peace.

 

[zwk500]

How on earth can the cost of tactile be justified at a station with such low usage - and many of them just collecting station stops?

If I lived there, leaving aside ownership, that would irritate me.

It's a legal requirement, so the cost is justified against the potential liability for anybody, even a basher collecting stations stops, being injured because of a lack of tactile.

 

[yorksrob]

How on earth can the cost of tactile be justified at a station with such low usage - and many of them just collecting station stops?

If I lived there, leaving aside ownership, that would irritate me.

The railway company maintaining and updating their platform ?

There's a solution if people are irritated by the railway maintaining and updating the platform next to their home.

Don't live next to a railway platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to our dynamic duo the former platform forms part of their garden.

The term they use is "the area in use as a platform" if I recall.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone knows of any good walking guides or routes that interact with this train line I would appreciate the information.

Not done myself, but:

Trails from the Rails 7: Altnabreac to Forsinard

Area: Caithness Local Train Operators: Scotrail Length: About 15 miles Points of Note: Flow of Caithness OS maps – Explorer 449 (1:25,000); Landranger 10 & 11 (1:50,000) (spans both maps) There…

thegawain.wordpress.com

Trails from the Rails 7: Altnabreac to Forsinard
June 7, 2017

Area: Caithness
Local Train Operators: Scotrail
Length: About 15 miles
Points of Note: Flow of Caithness
OS maps – Explorer 449 (1:25,000); Landranger 10 & 11 (1:50,000) (spans both maps)

There is only one word to describe this walk and that word is “unique”. Altnabreac is the most isolated and desolate station in the United Kingdom and the walk away from it is exceptionally barren.

I hope this is useful. However, any further discussion on walks would need to take place in Trip Planning & Reports

 

[reddragon]

I deal a lot with ownership & liabilities with NR.

Railways were constructed under Railway Enabling Acts (private acts of parliament) and include a schedule of land & line of deviation. No railways at the time of construction were registered by the land registry and many still aren't.

It's a well known game for neighbours to extend their gardens and try to claim a bit extra land as the land isn't registered, often using the 21 year rule. This couple are simply gaming the system for personal benefit, but seem to have gone too far & are unable to see sense that what they're doing is wrong.

An original copy of the act, schedule & line of deviation (including plans & sections) should resolve this situation. I note according to NLS old maps, they may have claimed the old railway sidings as their garden?

Could this have been the trigger?

The Friends of the Far North Line - Magazine - February 2022

www.fofnl.org.uk

The Highland Council showed its commitment to modal shift by granting planning permission on 10 December to Caledonia Forest Land Investment Ltd for the construction of a trackside loading facility on the north side of the railway adjacent to Altnabreac Station.

Article on proposed loading platform for logs on old down platform opposite their house.

 

[tspaul26]

No railways at the time of construction were registered by the land registry and many still aren't.

Of course, no railway in Scotland will be registered by the Land Registry.

It's a well known game for neighbours to extend their gardens and try to claim a bit extra land as the land isn't registered, often using the 21 year rule.

Perhaps you might explain what this “21 year rule” is and how it is relevant to this case?

An original copy of the act, schedule & line of deviation (including plans & sections) should resolve this situation. I note according to NLS old maps, they may have claimed the old railway sidings as their garden?

None of this is necessary: Appleby’s title is registered as a cadastral unit and the foundation writ contains sufficient information to enable the relevant boundaries to be surveyed and determined.

 

[Questions]

Not done myself, but:

Trails from the Rails 7: Altnabreac to Forsinard

Area: Caithness Local Train Operators: Scotrail Length: About 15 miles Points of Note: Flow of Caithness OS maps – Explorer 449 (1:25,000); Landranger 10 & 11 (1:50,000) (spans both maps) There…

thegawain.wordpress.com

I hope this is useful. However, any further discussion on walks would need to take place in Trip Planning & Reports

Thank you for this, very kind of you and it looks ideal .
I will use the other part of the forum for further discussion

 

[reddragon]

None of this is necessary: Appleby’s title is registered as a cadastral unit and the foundation writ contains sufficient information to enable the relevant boundaries to be surveyed and determined.

Apparently titles registered as a cadastral unit can overlap and Registers of Scotland has transitional provisions to address situations where existing titles may have overlapping representations, but the goal is to ultimately have a one-to-one relationship between titles and cadastral units.

Maybe that applies here?

 

[tspaul26]

Apparently titles registered as a cadastral unit can overlap and Registers of Scotland has transitional provisions to address situations where existing titles may have overlapping representations, but the goal is to ultimately have a one-to-one relationship between titles and cadastral units.

Maybe that applies here?

Not in this case, no.

 

[reddragon]

According to the Scottish Government it can: -

Transitional provisions

Provisions governing the changes to Scotland's land registration system under the 2012 Act.

kb.ros.gov.uk

Transitional provisions​

Last updated: 07 April 2017
This guidance covers the provisions governing the change from the Land Registration (Scotland) Act 1979 Act (the 1979 Act) to the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Act 2012 (the Act).
The 2012 Act came into force on December 8, 2014, known as the designated day.

specifically: -

Shared and sharing plots

Shared plots have separate title sheets and cadastral units from principal, or sharing plots.

kb.ros.gov.uk

This guidance covers the definition of shared plots, and our approach to including them on the cadastral map.

A shared plot is an area which is:

• owned in common by two or more proprietors
• owned by virtue of ownership of a principal or sharing plot

For example, ownership of a house could lead to shared ownership of an area of amenity ground with all other houses within the estate.

I am no expert on Scottish laws but this shows that an overlap in ownership or shared plt for amenity or access is possible.

 

[Trainbike46]

According to the Scottish Government it can: -

Transitional provisions

Provisions governing the changes to Scotland's land registration system under the 2012 Act.

kb.ros.gov.uk

specifically: -

Shared and sharing plots

Shared plots have separate title sheets and cadastral units from principal, or sharing plots.

kb.ros.gov.uk

I am no expert on Scottish laws but this shows that an overlap in ownership or shared plt for amenity or access is possible.

That something may be possible in general, does not mean that it applies in this specific situation.

 

[tspaul26]

According to the Scottish Government it can: -

Transitional provisions

Provisions governing the changes to Scotland's land registration system under the 2012 Act.

kb.ros.gov.uk

specifically: -

Shared and sharing plots

Shared plots have separate title sheets and cadastral units from principal, or sharing plots.

kb.ros.gov.uk

I am no expert on Scottish laws but this shows that an overlap in ownership or shared plt for amenity or access is possible.

I am an expert, and none of this is relevant to this case.

I note that you have not explained your reference to a putative “21 year rule” either.

 

[Krokodil]

I note that you have not explained your reference to a putative “21 year rule” either.

Presumably it's a reference to adverse possession (fence off a piece of unregistered land, use it for a couple of decades without objection and you can claim it as yours - I am not a lawyer but this is the gist). No idea if there is an equivalent in Scots law.

 

[reddragon]

I am an expert, and none of this is relevant to this case.

I note that you have not explained your reference to a putative “21 year rule” either.

Twenty Year Right Of Way Rule Explained - Stephensons Solicitors LLP

The acquisition of rights of way through long-term use is a notable aspect of property law within the United Kingdom. The concept of the 20 year rule right of...

www.stephensons.co.uk

The acquisition of rights of way through long-term use is a notable aspect of property law within the United Kingdom. The concept of the '20 year rule right of way' is significant, particularly for homeowners, property developers, and landowners, as it can fundamentally impact property rights. Understanding precisely what constitutes a 'right of way', how it can be obtained, and its implications can be crucial.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Probably best not to rely on a quote from a Manchester firm about "property law within the United Kingdom", unless they demonstrate any understanding of the (many) differences between English and Scottish law!

 

[tspaul26]

Presumably it's a reference to adverse possession (fence off a piece of unregistered land, use it for a couple of decades without objection and you can claim it as yours - I am not a lawyer but this is the gist). No idea if there is an equivalent in Scots law.

There is a Scots law equivalent, but it operates quite differently. The situation you describe in brackets could not found title in Scotland.

Twenty Year Right Of Way Rule Explained - Stephensons Solicitors LLP

The acquisition of rights of way through long-term use is a notable aspect of property law within the United Kingdom. The concept of the 20 year rule right of...

www.stephensons.co.uk

This is irrelevant to (a) land in Scotland generally and (b) acquisitive prescription of title specifically.

 

[BRX]

I deal a lot with ownership & liabilities with NR.

Railways were constructed under Railway Enabling Acts (private acts of parliament) and include a schedule of land & line of deviation. No railways at the time of construction were registered by the land registry and many still aren't.

It's a well known game for neighbours to extend their gardens and try to claim a bit extra land as the land isn't registered, often using the 21 year rule. This couple are simply gaming the system for personal benefit, but seem to have gone too far & are unable to see sense that what they're doing is wrong.

An original copy of the act, schedule & line of deviation (including plans & sections) should resolve this situation. I note according to NLS old maps, they may have claimed the old railway sidings as their garden?

Could this have been the trigger?

The Friends of the Far North Line - Magazine - February 2022

www.fofnl.org.uk

Article on proposed loading platform for logs on old down platform opposite their house.

I have a few questions about lines of deviation .... But have put them in a new thread here:

"Lines of deviation" on old railway plans - what did they actually mean?

I've been looking at quite a few old railway plans recently - the ones that were "deposited" in order to gain a parliamentary bill. They are from the 1860s - 1890s. The proposed routes are generally shown with a solid continuous line and then two dotted "lines of deviation", one each side of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

It's a legal requirement, so the cost is justified against the potential liability for anybody, even a basher collecting stations stops, being injured because of a lack of tactile.

I understand the requirement when any new work is done. I wonder how many have been injured anywhere because of a lack of tactile tiling?

The cost of adding them to the length of this particular platform is way out of line with any conceivable benefit and seems almost designed to be inflammatory. That said, has the platform been dug up to insert concrete tiles, or are they plastic stuck on with glue?

 

[mcmad]

I understand the requirement when any new work is done. I wonder how many have been injured anywhere because of a lack of tactile tiling?

The cost of adding them to the length of this particular platform is way out of line with any conceivable benefit and seems almost designed to be inflammatory. That said, has the platform been dug up to insert concrete tiles, or are they plastic stuck on with glue?

There have been at least 2 deaths of visually restricted people attributed to the lack of tactiles hence the ORR mandating their installation on all platforms in a time limited programme

 

[Killingworth]

There have been at least 2 deaths of visually restricted people attributed to the lack of tactiles hence the ORR mandating their installation on all platforms in a time limited programme

Clearly a subject for its own thread but there may be a difference between deaths where there were no tactile tiles and deaths where presence of tactile tiles would have prevented the deaths - something it's probably impossible to prove.

However my point is that to install them at this remote, almost unused station, at night, was an extravagant provocation in an already delicate situation. It could have been deferred.

That said this is the most ridiculous dispute whatever the legal niceties of who owns exactly what and which deed proves this that or the other. The Highland Railway must have owned a substantial site with sidings and buildings, see National Library of Scotland copy of 6 inch OS map revised 1905; https://maps.nls.uk/view/75804216

For the practical operation of a railway used by very few passengers (incredibly few of whom use this station) who owns this gate or that fence seems rather petty. Just get on with it.

However, is the bigger issue the potential for loading large quantities of timber onto trains, at night, directly opposite the station house? There's an awful lot of timber up there that needs to come out sooner or later. If by road much of it would have to cross the railway - maybe at Altnabreac?

Apologies if this aspect has been discussed before.