Non stopping at Bolton, then stopping

[umontu]

Yesterday I had the unfortunate displeasure (formed by a set with no air con working in the passenger compartment..) of traveling on 1S75, the 1600 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh service run by Transpennine.

I boarded at Piccadilly and whilst waiting three separate announcements were made informing passengers that the train would not be stopping at Bolton, due to "The Engineering work"; one can only assume that meant the WCML work.

When boarding the train the guard announced again that the train was non stopping at Bolton and at Oxford Road he reiterated this again.

When we approached Bolton... The PA system kicked in announcing the train was stopping, followed by the guard announcing it and then the train stopping!

Many of the passengers were confused and were worried about whether the announcement was actually meant to say a different station.

I checked on Open Train Times, for a fellow passenger, and found the service still booked to stop at Bolton.

What the hell are TPE playing at?? Can anyone shed light on this?

 

[Train jaune]

That train is usually packed like a sardine tin between Manchester and Bolton so it would have been a nightmare in this heat and no air con yesterday. Wonder if they were trying to discourage Bolton passengers from boarding and easy the pressure for Edinburgh passengers. Dread to think what the next Northern departure was like in one of their cattle trucks. Delhi comes to mind.

 

[umontu]

That train is usually packed like a sardine tin between Manchester and Bolton so it would have been a nightmare in this heat and no air con yesterday. Wonder if they were trying to discourage Bolton passengers from boarding and easy the pressure for Edinburgh passengers. Dread to think what the next Northern departure was like in one of their cattle trucks. Delhi comes to mind.

It was very busy in any case but after Bolton was fully packed.

Are TOC's allowed to lie to passengers?

The person who sells drinks in first class kindly informed me the air con was working in the rear drivers cab with no one in it!

 

[AlexS]

I've had it happen a few times where a long distance train is very busy with local passengers (usually Birmingham to Wolverhampton) and a similar announcement has been made to try and clear a few locals off on to the regular alternative services to produce a bit more room for long distance passengers.

I once had two chav mommas on a packed Sunday evening 2 car 158 going to Aberystwyth from New Street, they completely ignored the request to board the empty 9 carriage 390 departing immediately behind from the next platform and then complained bitterly about having to fight their way off the train at Wolves as even more people tried (some failing) to pile on.

 

[ryan125hst]

(formed by a set with no air con working in the passenger compartment..)

The air conditioning wasn't working in all three carriages? That must be rare. I've never heard of it before, but I suppose it's possible given the high temperatures we've had over the last few weeks.

Did they give a reason (was there an electrical problem or something)?

 

[Thomas6187]

Wonder if they were trying to discourage Bolton passengers from boarding and easy the pressure for Edinburgh passengers.

That's the exact reason. The TPE Scotland have been hammered this week because of the Wigan block, resulting in lots of extra passengers. The same thing happen with the 17:15 from Piccadilly too.

 

[reb0118]

In effect the train is becoming uplift only at Bolton. This is quite a common practice on overcrowded express services that also stop at local stations.

As a short term work around it can be quite useful.

What does the forum think, however, about introducing the continental system of supplements for express trains to discourage local travel. All express trains may have to become reservation compulsory!

Say a £3 supplement for all class one express services. £10 if purchased on board. Of course this would not apply where there is only an express service between any two stations i.e. no local service to encourage the use thereof.

 

[Welshman]

I think train fares are expensive enough
How about a reduction of fares on the following local stopper to encourage local passengers to use that instead?

 

[reb0118]

How about a reduction of fares on the following local stopper to encourage local passengers to use that instead?

No, I feel there should be a supplement on the express fare to give the impression of a premium service.

However, the longer distance fares could be initially reduced by the price of the supplement so there is is not an immediate rise in the real term fare.

I once had two chav mommas on a packed Sunday evening 2 car 158.............

Surely £3 is not too much to pay to hopefully ensure that you do not have to share with the above.

 

[snail]

In effect the train is becoming uplift only at Bolton. This is quite a common practice on overcrowded express services that also stop at local stations.

As a short term work around it can be quite useful.

What does the forum think, however, about introducing the continental system of supplements for express trains to discourage local travel. All express trains may have to become reservation compulsory!

Say a £3 supplement for all class one express services. £10 if purchased on board. Of course this would not apply where there is only an express service between any two stations i.e. no local service to encourage the use thereof.

It will become something of a moot point from December when the Scotland services start running via Wigan. You may get some Wigan passengers transferring but I don't think there are the same volumes as Bolton.

The old Virgin services to Scotland did the same thing re Bolton. It wasn't listed to stop there at Piccadilly but I never saw anyone penalised for trying to get off there.

As for announcements, I was on the 1715 ex Piccadilly on Thursday. The Conductor announced a few times that there was a Southport service to Bolton a few minutes behind (the 1722). I hope no one took any notice as the 1715 was 9 minutes late and the Southport service had left on time so was in front of it.

 

[Par]

Going back some years (2004 in fact), I ecountered what was blatant lie about an Arriva Trains Wales service from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on FA Cup Final day in May.

The early morning scheduled service, formed [I think] of a 2-car 158, was operating, but was advertised as running only as far as Crewe. ATW staff and police were insisting that passengers for Cardiff board one of two 'specials' instead.

Only when I insisted (because I know the reality of the situation) was I allowed to board the scheduled service (I held an advance ticket / reservation). If I hadn't insisted, then long distance ticket holders would have been denied boarding.

The service of course ran all the way to Cardiff. An utterly shameful situation.

 

[Hellfire]

Is there any reason why a long distance TOC could not declare some stations as uplift only and have a minimum fare structure to enforce it.

For instance anyone boarding a TPE service to Edinburgh at a Manchester station would have to pay a fare equivalent to a Preston ticket regardless of where they were getting off. That would not affect anyone travelling further.

I remember this sort of arrangement in force many years ago on the Western National bus service 128 from Plymouth to Torquay. To dissuade short
distance riders everyone getting on anywhere in Plymouth had to pay the price of a ticket to the edge of Plymouth no matter how far they were travelling. Obviously anyone journeying beyond the city boundary paid the proper fare.

I appreciate a bus is not a train but the principle is the same.

Would that help solve Flamingo's problems between Reading and Paddington

 

[Tomnick]

Going back some years (2004 in fact), I ecountered what was blatant lie about an Arriva Trains Wales service from Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central on FA Cup Final day in May.

The early morning scheduled service, formed [I think] of a 2-car 158, was operating, but was advertised as running only as far as Crewe. ATW staff and police were insisting that passengers for Cardiff board one of two 'specials' instead.

Only when I insisted (because I know the reality of the situation) was I allowed to board the scheduled service (I held an advance ticket / reservation). If I hadn't insisted, then long distance ticket holders would have been denied boarding.

The service of course ran all the way to Cardiff. An utterly shameful situation.

Shameful? Seems entirely sensible to push through passengers onto the relief trains provided for that purpose, and give those joining at intermediate stations half a chance of boarding the original train. The selfish refusal of passengers to comply with such requests for the greater good is exactly why these 'tricks' have to be employed.

 

[umontu]

Just seems really odd to me that they can lie like that. I don't get it, at least don't actually stop if you say you're not going to.

Also telling passengers to not board one TOC's train and sticking them on another is really shameful.

ryan125hst The set was formed out of two 185's, didn't make that clear sorry. But the air con wasn't one for the whole set I was in. I don't know about the front set but there was no way I could've swapped, nor anyone else..

 

[Tomnick]

If you don't stop, the (potentially) long distance passengers wishing to board at Bolton wouldn't be able to do so! I can see the sense in a long distance TOC trying to mitigate against its trains being packed out by suburban passengers at the extremities of the journey - possibly preventing long distance passengers with no reasonable alternative boarding - as long as the local service is sufficient to meet the demand on its own (which, in fairness, I suspect isn't the case here!).

 

[Par]

Shameful? Seems entirely sensible to push through passengers onto the relief trains provided for that purpose, and give those joining at intermediate stations half a chance of boarding the original train. The selfish refusal of passengers to comply with such requests for the greater good is exactly why these 'tricks' have to be employed.

Shameful in the sense that ATW were hiding the fact the service was running through to its scheduled destination and attempting to deny boarding for passengers who held pre-booked reservations for that service.

 

[Tomnick]

Sadly, if it was advertised as Cardiff, it'd be swamped by through passengers - no matter how much you try to persuade them otherwise, and no matter how close behind the relief train is - meaning that folk would be unable to board at intermediate stations. It does seem odd to offer advance purchase tickets and reservations for the full journey in that case though - although there shouldn't have been a problem with validity on the relief train if you were instructed to use it.

 

[umontu]

If you don't stop, the (potentially) long distance passengers wishing to board at Bolton wouldn't be able to do so! I can see the sense in a long distance TOC trying to mitigate against its trains being packed out by suburban passengers at the extremities of the journey - possibly preventing long distance passengers with no reasonable alternative boarding - as long as the local service is sufficient to meet the demand on its own (which, in fairness, I suspect isn't the case here!).

Point taken but it's lying to customers.

And your suspicions would be correct.

 

[t0ffeeman]

In reverse, is it correct to call a stopping train to Paddington at Reading, destination Ealing Broadway? Ditto Foxton for Cambridge at KX

 

[whizzylizzy]

National Rail Enquires was not showing the 16.15 or 17.15 from Picc as stopping at Bolton. It was however picking up passengers at Bolton (again showing on NRE). Therefore there was no trickery from TPE point. I suggest you check times on NRE which is the official source of train times and not OPen Trains, which quite clearly says on its home page it only uses a small amount of information from NRE therefore isn't the best source to receive ultimate information and alterations.
If Virgins Train had stopped at Piccadilly to transport its passengers to WCML to Preston, TPE wouldn't have had to do this in order to convey its own passengers to Preston and beyond at the expense of the local commuters.

 

[causton]

An utterly shameful situation.

Don't understand why it's shameful! I would rather all the football fans be on a special train where they can shout, throw beer cans at each other, sing loudly etc, with the passengers who were going to catch that train anyway getting half a chance of a decent journey and a seat!

 

[Howardh]

I suppose it's no different than trains leaving Euston for the NW, stopping at watford to pick up but not set down? Wonder how many locals wanting a quick journey home have got off one of such at Watford?

 

[Hellfire]

If you don't stop, the (potentially) long distance passengers wishing to board at Bolton wouldn't be able to do so! .

I did suggest stations like Bolton would be uplift only....not that the train should not stop.

 

[Tomnick]

Apologies, should've included a quote - my post was in response to umontu's suggestion that they don't stop at all if it's not advertised to passengers hoping to alight. Pick-up only calls are a perfectly good idea to manage demand for potentially busier legs of long-distance service .

Just a quick further thought. Diverted Norwich - Liverpool trains, as discussed elsewhere on here, are calling at Derby to attach a portion for the next five weeks - but that stop's not advertised. Is that considered unacceptable too?!

 

[reb0118]

I did suggest stations like Bolton would be uplift only....not that the train should not stop.

This is similar to certain Edinburgh - Inverness express services. Inverkeithing & Kirkcaldy can be uplift only. Passengers for Inverkeithing & Kirkcaldy found on those trains can be excessed to the first station at which the train is booked to call.

If there are no passengers wishing to board at the uplift only stations then the guard does not have to release the doors. Which brings me on to ~ uplift & setdown only stops pay havoc with the automatic announcers!

 

[Hellfire]

This is similar to certain Edinburgh - Inverness express services. Inverkeithing & Kirkcaldy can be uplift only. Passengers for Inverkeithing & Kirkcaldy found on those trains can be excessed to the first station at which the train is booked to call.

That seems to be the solution. Does it have the desired effect?

 

[Tomnick]

I remember reading someone's account (probably on this forum somewhere) of a Down peak (fast) service out of London, booked to call at somewhere like East Croydon to pick up only. Perhaps inevitably, it was generally swamped with commuters travelling to East Croydon. They learnt their lesson when, one day, an additional unadvertised train was run, starting from East Croydon and shadowing the original train which was then able to omit its East Croydon stop altogether. I don't recall whether the hundreds of overcarried commuters had their fares excessed or not .

 

[Eagle]

Sadly, if it was advertised as Cardiff, it'd be swamped by through passengers - no matter how much you try to persuade them otherwise, and no matter how close behind the relief train is - meaning that folk would be unable to board at intermediate stations. It does seem odd to offer advance purchase tickets and reservations for the full journey in that case though - although there shouldn't have been a problem with validity on the relief train if you were instructed to use it.

Scotrail were doing this on Thursday morning at Edinburgh Waverley for the Open at Muirfield. Passengers for the golf were sent to a holding pen in the north hall to wait for the next relief shuttle to Drem—these shuttles appeared on the departure board but with no platform advertised—so that they wouldn't swamp the North Berwick services which would have already been busy with commuters at this time of morning.

(The North Berwick services were announced as calling at Drem though; I'm guessing they were hoping that golf passengers wouldn't notice that and just head for the golfex. Or that they didn't know that Drem was the closest station for Muirfield.)

 

[reb0118]

That seems to be the solution. Does it have the desired effect?

Yes, probably. Certain passengers are in the know* so to speak but not enough to cause major overcrowding. I believe that it is not an overcrowding issue for these trains but a station dwell time problem (could be wrong though?).

* In some cases these passengers have been referring to paper timetables as the time will still be shown at their destination as e.g. 13u57 where the u = uplift only. Some pax do not read footnotes & some will not know what uplift means!

 

[IanD]

So you get on at Manchester Airport heading home to Bolton with your all your luggage and hear this so you alight at Piccadilly to wait for a stopper to Bolton. If it was me I wouldn't be best pleased.