Non-Urgent Information Request - Southern Region 1968

[Union St]

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm completely out of my depth here, but I have a request concerning railway information. (I don't know what a head code is).
In late 1968, say October/November, what were the early passenger train schedules from Brighton to Victoria?
Was it direct, or did they stop? What kind of engine and how many coaches?
Just general information - I'm writing a novel.

Any information gratefully accepted.

Sean

 

[Snow1964]

The Southern Railway and later Southern Region used 2 digit number headcodes, they were more like route numbers (like buses have) so station staff and signallers (and regular passengers) knew what train it was.

Some of the busier stations would have trains to multiple destinations departing every few minutes, and of course if there was disruption identified the train even if it arrived at wrong time. Many stations had finger boards at the time (literally a wooden board with station stops written on it) which platform staff put into a slot above head height. They would be stored end on in racks and often had the route number on the end so station staff pulled out appropriate board. They got replaced by electronic platform displays from 1980s on.

Victoria-Brighton did have fast trains (and the electric Brighton Belle was still going in 1968). This was traditionally non stop. By 1968 faster trains were also calling at any of Clapham Junction, East Croydon and perhaps Gatwick airport. Semi-fast trains only stopped at Clapham Junction, then skipped all the suburban stations to Croydon, then main stations. The stopping trains called everywhere south of Croydon.

Without looking up old timetables, I cannot remember which trains split in 1968, some divided and had portions via Lewes towards Eastbourne, or via Horsham to West Sussex coast. What is making me hesitant is I think Crawley station was new in 1968 and services were revised as a result of it opening.

 

[hexagon789]

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm completely out of my depth here, but I have a request concerning railway information. (I don't know what a head code is).
In late 1968, say October/November, what were the early passenger train schedules from Brighton to Victoria?
Was it direct, or did they stop? What kind of engine and how many coaches?
Just general information - I'm writing a novel.

Any information gratefully accepted.

Sean

The Brighton Main Line was electrified by 1933, since then even the Express services used Electric Multiple Units.

If you are unfamiliar with the term, no offence but I obviously dont know the extent of your knowledge, these are essentially self-propelled carriages with Electric motors - there is no separate locomotive.

By 1968, most services used the 4CIG and 4BIG units in 8 or 12-car formations (these replaced older 1930s units from 1965). You also had the prestigious thrice daily "Brighton Belle" Pullman services which used 1930s era luxury multiple units.

The Brighton Belles were non-stop, the other express services usually made one or two stops.

The Brighton Belles were 'headcode' 4, which meant 'via Quarry Fast Line' - ie routed on the Fast Lines via the Quarry Tunnel route.

Wikipedia gives decent enough info on the 4CIG/4BIG and 5BEL Brighton Belle trainsets; if you do need more detail - the Southern Region E-Mail Group website is a bit more precise.

 

[Snow1964]

In 1968 many of the trains would have been green, although a few would have been in the then new blue colours. The Brighton Belle (which used Pullman carriages) were brown, not green

Although new trains has been built for the Brighton line fast and semi-fast services in 1963. The stopping trains would have still been old 1930s trains. Many of the trains sharing the line would have been near end of their life, having been built mid or late 1930s for Sussex coast electrification schemes.

 

[randyrippley]

thinking of another book Sean?

 

[Union St]

Thank you so much for all the information. I don't need too much specificity, but when do you think the trains would start running from Brighton to Victoria? I mean, what time in the morning? So, they would have been 8-12 coach electric trains, right? And good chance of stopping at Clapham Junction - just where I want to be.
Thank you, Randy. Yes, this will be the third book in the Battersea trilogy. I self-published the first two, but I have an agent now with high hopes.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some old timetables are available at

Timetable World

timetableworld.com

A selection can be freely viewed, and that appears to include a 1963 timetable for Southern Region.
There is a fee to download other timetables (as pdf files), and a May 1968 Southern Region timetable seems to be available. Apart from the absence of summer-dated trains, that will differ very little from the timetable for October 1968.

 

[jfollows]

In 1972 (which is the closest timetable I have to your request) there were
05:58 14 Brighton-Victoria, 07:29 at Clapham Junction (slow train)
06:08 12 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction
07:04 6 Brighton-Victoria, 08:04 at Clapham Junction
07:17 6 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction
07:35 6 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction
07:56 6 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction
08:09 6 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction
08:38 6 Brighton-Victoria, did not stop at Clapham Junction

In this timetable, nothing earlier than the 05:58
The number in the second column is the train's headcode displayed on the front

I don't know if there were major timetable changes between 1968 and 1972

I don't know if Timetable World might have the timetable you need? https://timetableworld.com/ See https://timetableworld.com/product/southern-region-1968-05-great-britain/ for £6 PDF download.

Timetable World also has a 1963 timetable you can view, and the times are very similar to the 1972 ones I extracted - the fast train is 07:02-08:03 to Clapham Junction, for example, the slower 05:58 arrives 07:30 and the other trains don’t stop.

In the 1963 extract below, trains with times with * in the middle at Clapham Junction don't stop, the note means "Change at East Croydon"

 

[Taunton]

When did the hourly, all-night, service from Brighton to London start? This was principally for Gatwick Airport, on the route, and made it one of the very few all-night shorter distance services in the country. Trains from Brighton stopped at Gatwick, East Croydon and Clapham Junction. It wasn't just for air passengers - many of the airport and airline staff lived at the various points along the line. I can see in the above the start of the operation, just Gatwick to Victoria, but think it was pretty soon extended on to Brighton.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Sean - another interesting query from you! My 'home line' that I grew up using (born near Brighton) - tho my familiarity dates more from the 1970s. I thought I had the 1966-67 Southern Region Timetable book, but it turns out it is the 'South Western Division'* only section - that is trains from / to Waterloo broadly, not Victoria - anyway - others have given you good timetable info.

Some context for you might be worth watching the short film made by British Transport Films (British Railways in house film unit) dated 1965 or 1964 called 'Down to Sussex' - it's a tourist promotional film really, so not so many trains - this is on you tube at

Don't be fooled by the fancy dining car service in the first few minutes however, that is the Brighton Belle all Pullman train (Brown and Cream carriages) - another train showing the Electric Units at about minute 10 (crossing the main viaduct on the line).

It would have been rare to see trains with engines and hauled carriages (electric or diesel let alone steam) on the route even before 1968, apart from freight trains or special services.

By 1968 the then new '4 Cig' trains electric multiple unit trains (and their equivalents with buffest card '4 Big') would I think be much more common on the line - internally these trains had a few compartments - with a corridor along side - mostly or maybe all 1st class compartments, and open saloons. Each 'unit of train' was 4 carriages but they could be joined up into 8 or 12 car trains, which passengers and staff could then walk through the length of them. Older trains would have been used on some services however.

The electric service operates using a 3rd electrified rail that the trains pick up the electricity from (as opposed to overhead wires).

* EDIT - checked this more thoroughly and it does contain a summary of principal services to the south coast - so not full stopping patterns but it does give the following departures on weekday mornings from Brighton to London


Timetable: 18 April 1966 to 11 June 1967

Brighton Depart: 07.02 Victoria Arrive: 08.09
Brighton Depart: 07.13 Victoria Arrive: 08.24
Brighton Depart: 07.36 Victoria Arrive: 08.44
Brighton Depart: 07.58 Victoria Arrive: 09.02
Brighton Depart: 08.06 Victoria Arrive: 09.15
Brighton Depart: 08.36 Victoria Arrive: 09.42
Brighton Depart: 09.25 Victoria Arrive: 10.25 (Brighton Belle - 5 or 10 car Pullman trains - but Pullman does not mean sleeping car in the UK)
Brighton Depart: 09.30 Victoria Arrive: 10.32

I suspect the earlier trains mentioned above were not considered 'Principal services' so are not listed in my 1966 summary timetable, but I very much expect they ran too.

Note: there are also trains to London Bridge station in London that do not go through Clapham Jct

Catering: Some of these trains have what is listed as a 'Miniature Buffet' (snacks, bar drinks, tea, coffee minerals)
others have a 'Buffet Car' (hot dishes to order. Light refreshments - bar drinks, tea, coffee minerals)
The Brighton Belle Pullman has 'A la carte meals served at every seat, light refreshments and drinks'

Let me know if you need to know catering for a particular train.

 

[30907]

The timetable was completely rewritten for summer 1967, but in general the expresses didn't stop at Clapham Jn, so your traveller would almost certainly have changed at East Croydon as before.
I have rediscovered the 68-69 timetable book, so (ignoring the stopping trains) your traveller from Brighton would have had
4 0705 arr CLJ 0805 direct then
14 1010 arr 1115
otherwise, changing at ECR:
5 0623-ECR 0720/29-CLJ 0739
4 0718-0808/18-0829
4 0735-0821/25-0836 hot buffet
5 0738-0829/37-0847 cold buffet
5 0820-0907/19-0929
5 0845-0930/38-0949 hot buffet.
14 0915-1006/31-1041

The buffet trains would have been formed 4CIG-4BIG-4CIG, the others probably of CIG or VEP units (2 or 3 of either type, or a mixture)
You can find out details of the trains (probably too much info) on
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/#MultipleUnits.
listed under Southern Region DC Electrics.
Most of the trains up to 0845 would have come empty from the local depot called Lovers' Walk.

Your traveller wouldn't have noticed the headcode, Brighton being a terminus, however I have shown them above (5 was for London Bridge)
.
If they had changed at ECR they would probably have alighted on Platform 3 and remained there for the connection, which would in most cases have come from the Mid-Sussex route via Horsham; if necessary I can work out the headcode for a specific train.

Hope that helps - nice to have you back anyway.

 

[StephenHunter]

Minerals means mineral water, I believe.

 

[30907]

Minerals means mineral water, I believe.

Or more generally any soft drink - not that the choice was vast IIRC, and bottled water in 1968 was more what you drank on foreign holidays

 

[yorksrob]

The timetable was completely rewritten for summer 1967, but in general the expresses didn't stop at Clapham Jn, so your traveller would almost certainly have changed at East Croydon as before.
I have rediscovered the 68-69 timetable book, so (ignoring the stopping trains) your traveller from Brighton would have had
4 0705 arr CLJ 0805 direct then
14 1010 arr 1115
otherwise, changing at ECR:
5 0623-ECR 0720/29-CLJ 0739
4 0718-0808/18-0829
4 0735-0821/25-0836 hot buffet
5 0738-0829/37-0847 cold buffet
5 0820-0907/19-0929
5 0845-0930/38-0949 hot buffet.
14 0915-1006/31-1041

The buffet trains would have been formed 4CIG-4BIG-4CIG, the others probably of CIG or VEP units (2 or 3 of either type, or a mixture)
You can find out details of the trains (probably too much info) on
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/#MultipleUnits.
listed under Southern Region DC Electrics.
Most of the trains up to 0845 would have come empty from the local depot called Lovers' Walk.

Your traveller wouldn't have noticed the headcode, Brighton being a terminus, however I have shown them above (5 was for London Bridge)
.
If they had changed at ECR they would probably have alighted on Platform 3 and remained there for the connection, which would in most cases have come from the Mid-Sussex route via Horsham; if necessary I can work out the headcode for a specific train.

Hope that helps - nice to have you back anyway.

Would the VEP's have reached the Brighton line by 1968 ? Probably more 2BIL's for the slower services at that time.

The Brighton line CIG's had superbly comfortable and stylish interiors.

 

[WesternLancer]

Minerals means mineral water, I believe.

Helpful interpretation.

Or more generally any soft drink - not that the choice was vast IIRC, and bottled water in 1968 was more what you drank on foreign holidays

Yes, useful point of clarity!

 

[Union St]

My apologies for intruding upon your time again with my minor inquiry. I ought to have anticipated that stepping back into this unfamiliar realm - a place teeming with chaps brimming with enthusiasm and expertise - would result in an overwhelming influx of minutia (much of it of the best kind. Really!). The head code aside was a thoughtless remark by me that speaks to my lack of comprehension of the railway industry. Please ignore it. Thanks to your guidance and support, I believe I could pilot Wadebridge with aplomb if the need arose. In all earnestness, I am deeply appreciative of your aid and will carefully contemplate the various timetable options for the Brighton-London journey. I chose CLJ (I am even learning the acronyms now ) because my characters call Battersea home, but in the current situation, they would have accepted any location within the great city, or more fundamentally - just out of Brighton. At three in the morning (at Central Station on Terminus Road, yes?), with the authorities in hot pursuit, my characters would have abstained from driving due to the fear of encountering roadblocks (fleeing from a failed blagging). A vehicle occupied by two burly men at that time would have been highly conspicuous. Now, I must contemplate the sandwiches they may have procured from the buffet . You guys! Your expertise has been invaluable, and I will take the time to thoroughly absorb and comprehend the information provided. While I may not have a train to rob in this scenario, there is the possibility of a bank in Mayfair. This project will likely take the entire year to complete and I am only on the first chapter. Thank you for your gracious welcome back.

 

[StephenHunter]

Wasn't this the height of the dodgy BR sandwich?

 

[WesternLancer]

My apologies for intruding upon your time again with my minor inquiry. I ought to have anticipated that stepping back into this unfamiliar realm - a place teeming with chaps brimming with enthusiasm and expertise - would result in an overwhelming influx of minutia (much of it of the best kind. Really!). The head code aside was a thoughtless remark by me that speaks to my lack of comprehension of the railway industry. Please ignore it. Thanks to your guidance and support, I believe I could pilot Wadebridge with aplomb if the need arose. In all earnestness, I am deeply appreciative of your aid and will carefully contemplate the various timetable options for the Brighton-London journey. I chose CLJ (I am even learning the acronyms now ) because my characters call Battersea home, but in the current situation, they would have accepted any location within the great city, or more fundamentally - just out of Brighton. At three in the morning (at Central Station on Terminus Road, yes?), with the authorities in hot pursuit, my characters would have abstained from driving due to the fear of encountering roadblocks (fleeing from a failed blagging). A vehicle occupied by two burly men at that time would have been highly conspicuous. Now, I must contemplate the sandwiches they may have procured from the buffet . You guys! Your expertise has been invaluable, and I will take the time to thoroughly absorb and comprehend the information provided. While I may not have a train to rob in this scenario, there is the possibility of a bank in Mayfair. This project will likely take the entire year to complete and I am only on the first chapter. Thank you for your gracious welcome back.

Good luck with it.

I'm guessing not much in the way of trains until nearly 6am (and I suspect that in 1968 although Brighton would then as now have a reputation as a racy place) there would not be that many people about on the streets or the station in the time period 3am to 6am - so anyone would risk being spotted, but it may well have been possible to keep a low profile until an early train. You would have had to have got though a staffed ticket check on the barrier line to get to the trains too - so if anyone was watching out for you that might be a bit of an obstacle - I recall person height gates that would typically be opened a bit before the train was due to depart so you kind of had to queue on the concourse area before being granted access tot he platform (certainly that was the case in the 1970s and I suspect it had been like that for years before, but happy to stand corrected.

Others may know if there were trains to other places before 05.58 in those days, but I think it is perhaps unlikely - would be interesting to know however!

Pic here from that kind of era (apols - can't seem to get link to credit the pic but it came up on a search) - shows image of platforms from concourse



Central Station on Terminus Road:
Never heard it called 'central' as it is/was the only station in Brighton - so just called 'Brighton Station'. Technically it is on Queens Road. Terminus Road runs beside the station.
But, yes - this one:

Brighton railway station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wasn't this the height of the dodgy BR sandwich?

No, not really. I suspect most sandwiches (inc shop bought efforts) were fairly sub par... - I think the dodgy BR sandwich got that reputation in the 1970s when others were upping their game. Having said that railway food had had a poor reputation for quite a long time so maybe you can say that about any era.

 

[randyrippley]

Wasn't this the height of the dodgy BR sandwich?

and Lyons individual fruit pies, Kia-Ora soft drinks in collapsible polystyrene cartons, 1/4 pints of milk in waxed cardboard cartons
what else???
Was the coffee Max-Pax by then?

Minerals means mineral water, I believe.

It means fizzy drinks, i.e. what Americans would call "soda" (but not the same as soda water)

 

[30907]

Would the VEP's have reached the Brighton line by 1968 ? Probably more 2BIL's for the slower services at that time.

See the linked site! They were all in service by then, though the LAVs hadn't been withdrawn.

Was the coffee Max-Pax by then?

Mid 70s IIRC

PS without checking, the 0558 stopper was still the first London train - there were slightly earlier trains towards Portsmouth, and the 1963 t/t has a 4.40am to Lewes which connected with the London-Eastbourne newspaper train.