Norfolk Green (Now Stagecoach Norfolk) to be binned

[backontrack]

Norfolk Green may have been award winning, but so was Reays and Western Greyhound.

History is littered with former operators that looked good on the surface and in those glossy bus magazine spreads when in reality it was a pile of rubbish.

Wait, did Reays fold?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Norfolk Green may have been award winning, but so was Reays and Western Greyhound.

Reays are still going?

 

[overthewater]

I completely agree, I'm just surprised more isn't being made of it on here. The focus always seems to be on First and, to a lesser extent, Arriva. Stagecoach seem to get a free pass, even where their retrenchment is far in excess of what other operators in the area are doing (as is the case with Busways).

Why not create a thread? East Scotland has a thread and there didn't get a easy ride with some of cuts (some were needed but some went to far) Built it and there will come.

 

[Anthony ross]

I think to be fair stagecoach do seem to be a bit of a superior operation to what first are first do seem to make alot of bad decisions which then in time comes back to bite them in the arse which is down to management

 

[tbtc]

I completely agree, I'm just surprised more isn't being made of it on here. The focus always seems to be on First and, to a lesser extent, Arriva. Stagecoach seem to get a free pass, even where their retrenchment is far in excess of what other operators in the area are doing

Why not create a thread? East Scotland has a thread and there didn't get a easy ride with some of cuts (some were needed but some went to far) Built it and there will come.

I did start a "general Stagecoach" thread (given that we have a "general" one for First) - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...stagecoach-buses-megabus-magicbus-etc.159205/ - but it doesn't seem to be particularly busy.

I don't think that Stagecoach get a "free pass" on the Forum (especially when it comes to running trains), but First seem to be the "tall poppy" who attract criticism for things that other operators also do (in the way that people complain about Apple phones being made in sweat-shops but don't seem to have the same worries about Samsung phones... people complain about Mcdonalds being unhealthy fast food but Burger King doesn't seem to get the same attention... First are the lightening rod!).

 

[gingerheid]

That's probably because, historically, Stagecoach just haven't been as awful as First!

 

[Busaholic]

I completely agree, I'm just surprised more isn't being made of it on here. The focus always seems to be on First and, to a lesser extent, Arriva. Stagecoach seem to get a free pass, even where their retrenchment is far in excess of what other operators in the area are doing (as is the case with Busways).

These things come in phases, don't you think? I can remember when Stagecoach was not a name that could be mentioned in polite society, and I remember my late father-in-law becoming very exercised when, very late in his career, they took over his beloved Ribble, and what was to become of his upcoming pension? He needn't have worried, as it happens, the Wicked Witch (Ann Gloag) departed, while her brother was canny enough to let Moir Lockwood proclaim his Thatcherite credentials and get the majority of the stick. First have pulled out of so many more areas than Stagecoach, of course, sometimes when the latter has started in competition (Northampton, North Devon).

 

[Dentonian]

These things come in phases, don't you think? I can remember when Stagecoach was not a name that could be mentioned in polite society, and I remember my late father-in-law becoming very exercised when, very late in his career, they took over his beloved Ribble, and what was to become of his upcoming pension? He needn't have worried, as it happens, the Wicked Witch (Ann Gloag) departed, while her brother was canny enough to let Moir Lockwood proclaim his Thatcherite credentials and get the majority of the stick. First have pulled out of so many more areas than Stagecoach, of course, sometimes when the latter has started in competition (Northampton, North Devon).

Yes and No - based on Gtr. Manchester. First have been consistently bad since they acquired GMN in 1996, albeit there had been signs of improvement in recent years. Stagecoach were consistently better; much more punctual/reliable, cheaper fares; friendli(er) drivers and competent/knowledgeable (if occasionally, ruthless) local management. However, the sale of Finglands seems to have been a catalyst for deterioration. Fares have accelerated to virtually meet First's levels - except there are sharp differences between Free market fares and captive market fares; punctuality has declined, especially off-peak; capacity has been cut to the bone on some routes away from the city; branding and hybrid vehicle allocation has become a joke and service changes have become even more frequent than on First routes. In fact, the only area where Stagecoach standards haven't slipped seems to be driver quality.

 

[overthewater]

Yet it happened around the same time Manchester bus market is on it back side?

 

[Robertj21a]

These things come in phases, don't you think? I can remember when Stagecoach was not a name that could be mentioned in polite society, and I remember my late father-in-law becoming very exercised when, very late in his career, they took over his beloved Ribble, and what was to become of his upcoming pension? He needn't have worried, as it happens, the Wicked Witch (Ann Gloag) departed, while her brother was canny enough to let Moir Lockwood proclaim his Thatcherite credentials and get the majority of the stick. First have pulled out of so many more areas than Stagecoach, of course, sometimes when the latter has started in competition (Northampton, North Devon).

Northampton collapsed largely due to First mismanagement. Stagecoach (United Counties) was already a major player in the area but didn't start direct competition with First in order to bring it down, indeed it was careful to not register over the top of First's routes even when that operation was clearly dead in the water.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These things come in phases, don't you think? I can remember when Stagecoach was not a name that could be mentioned in polite society

They always do, I quite agree. For a while First was the way to be, and Lockhead was the saviour of the bus industry, especially around the time Grampian took over Badgerline but made everyone think it was the other way around.

Now, as @TheGrandWazoo knows, I've never had much time for Stagecoach and I've not mellowed in my old age. The only unusual thing about their behaviour in Darlington was that people noticed and the Competition Commission cared. @overthewater posted a lovely video about them in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bus-programmes.156626/ from the early 90s. I don't understand their reputation for originality and innovation, their business model has always been more about driving the competition off the road through unsustainably low fares and cross-subsidising from areas where they don't have competition. Stagecoach Gold isn't anything that Yorkshire Rider weren't doing in the late 80s. They are competent though, they know exactly how much they can squeeze from every part of their business.

Which leads me back to Norfolk Green. I thought it a strange acquisition for them when they bought it. Norfolk Green (like Western Greyhound*) did well carving a niche out of routes that bigger businesses with bigger overheads couldn't or wouldn't sustain. Norfolk Green was not a bloated business. I never quite understood what the long-term aim was for that business. Stagecoach's ruthless efficiency wouldn't improve an already efficient business.

*Ah, Western Greyhound. Another business that carved a niche out of low-margin routes that the big boys couldn't or wouldn't entertain. It's sad how it ended because it masks how good they were for so long. But the problem with a business based on efficiently running low-margin routes, if the income drops even slightly then a comfortable living turns into a massive loss. And if you're already running efficiently, any cost savings you make damage the business (e.g. cleaning, maintenance), which just accelerates the spiral. ENCTS has an awful lot to answer for.

 

[overthewater]

I remember Stagecoach of the 90s there were cut throat, as said in that other thread there at least three other programmes, World in action, Frontline scotland and one from BBC South all looking at Stagecoach ( wish there would appear). First introduce a new standard etc ( buses forces did a full spread on them in 97, but the problem was Blockhead brought Aberdeen ideas to the UK, which went down lead a lead balloon in certain parts. I never did like First or Lockhead, always prefered stagecoach even with its cut throat operations First were also very bad at renumbering, to be stagecoach has started that stupid now aswell.....

Your right Norfolk Green was a strange acquisition, I think many of us thought Go Ahead would be the ones to bolt it on to there Anglia operations.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They always do, I quite agree. For a while First was the way to be, and Lockhead was the saviour of the bus industry, especially around the time Grampian took over Badgerline but made everyone think it was the other way around.

Now, as @TheGrandWazoo knows, I've never had much time for Stagecoach and I've not mellowed in my old age. The only unusual thing about their behaviour in Darlington was that people noticed and the Competition Commission cared. @overthewater posted a lovely video about them in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bus-programmes.156626/ from the early 90s. I don't understand their reputation for originality and innovation, their business model has always been more about driving the competition off the road through unsustainably low fares and cross-subsidising from areas where they don't have competition. Stagecoach Gold isn't anything that Yorkshire Rider weren't doing in the late 80s. They are competent though, they know exactly how much they can squeeze from every part of their business.

Which leads me back to Norfolk Green. I thought it a strange acquisition for them when they bought it. Norfolk Green (like Western Greyhound*) did well carving a niche out of routes that bigger businesses with bigger overheads couldn't or wouldn't sustain. Norfolk Green was not a bloated business. I never quite understood what the long-term aim was for that business. Stagecoach's ruthless efficiency wouldn't improve an already efficient business.

*Ah, Western Greyhound. Another business that carved a niche out of low-margin routes that the big boys couldn't or wouldn't entertain. It's sad how it ended because it masks how good they were for so long. But the problem with a business based on efficiently running low-margin routes, if the income drops even slightly then a comfortable living turns into a massive loss. And if you're already running efficiently, any cost savings you make damage the business (e.g. cleaning, maintenance), which just accelerates the spiral. ENCTS has an awful lot to answer for.

I'm no great fan of Souter in terms of his politics/religious pronoucements. However, he's a very smart businessman and that can't be denied.

Stagecoach were the enthusiasts hate figures in the late 80's/early 90's. Rightly so in some cases though you wonder if it had more to do with people getting aerated about the loss of local liveries and fleet standardisation etc - the usual emotional guff that some enthusiasts come out with. However, remember that Stagecoach were buying new vehicles in 1988/9 when few (outside of London) were doing so. What Stagecoach were very good was running a business

• Standardised fleet and screwing down manufacturers on price and after sales - less interesting but much more sensible
• Keeping costs down - when buying Busways, they bought out the drivers terms and conditions. A short term cost hit but worth it as it lowered the cost base and removed archaic working practices
• Hammering the opposition - not only as a way of gaining market share but to deter new entrants. Contrast that to every Tom, Dick and Harry who set up against various First subsidiaries in Moir's time
• Not overloading the business with debt. Moir wanted to be the biggest - well, turnover is vanity, profit is sanity!
• Capitalising on the property portfolio - again, Stagecoach were very canny. They got Hampshire Bus and sold Southampton bus station/depot, effectively paying the business. They got Keswick and a huge site and were able to sell that - when the council tried to block it, Stagecoach then played hardball!

As for Darlington, it is actually rather ironic. I was working in Darlington and remember the bus war very, very well. Your Bus began competing with United, with United responding with an onslaught of additional routes and duplicates. DTC were mortally wounded and, quite simply, they'd have gone bust had it not been for interest free "loans" from the council. Of course, they hoped to sell the business and when Stagecoach realised they'd been outbid, they simply piled in. Souter regrets doing Darlington now and rightly so as they got all the bad press when, in reality, it was United that did most of the damage.

Getting this back on topic, I can see why Stagecoach wanted to Norfolk Green. There was a willing seller in Ben Colson, who previously worked for Stagecoach. Also, the ability to add the business onto an existing local subsidiary etc so helping to contribute to the fixed overheads there. Also, a possible strategic move in case First were to draw their horns further and retreat from Kings Lynn? However, you're right that running in that sort of low margin territory is difficult and it doesn't take much of a weakening to move from a reasonable contribution to an operational loss.

 

[smtglasgow]

I don’t see anything strange about Stagecoach buying NG. They were buying a decent business in an area where First were visibly failing – they might not have seen how quickly First would pull out of Kings Lynn local operations, but they must have seen the potential. Yes, it’s poor bus territory, but there was money to be made. What has done for the NG operation is the poor ENCTS rate – remember the threat to the Coasthopper a few years ago? North Norfolk has a high proportion of retirees and a tourist trade that is probably skewed towards the older visitor (which obviously flags up parallels with Western Greyhound) and the continuing cuts to local government will have put pressure on tenders. Add in the decline in small-town retail and you can see why a business that looked a good bet just 10 years ago might be failing today

 

[overthewater]

Maybe Stagecoach thought if first are in the retreat there could have gotten its hands on the x1, who knows. Anyways there is a review going on right now: https://norfolk.citizenspace.com/consultation/bussubsidy/

Overview
Norfolk County Council plays a huge part in people’s lives – ensuring children and young people have the best start in life, protecting vulnerable people, maintaining a safe road system and helping to create a thriving economy. We’ll continue to spend over a billion pounds every year providing public services that you, your family and friends use every day.

Norfolk is facing some big challenges though. Our population is growing, people are generally living longer and the type of services that people need is changing. And as you know, the cost of living is going up. As things become more expensive we also have higher costs, and the amount of money we have coming in isn’t keeping up. At the same time the grant that central government gives us has fallen by £189 million since 2011 and is expected to fall to zero by 2021.

Even though we are proposing to increase council tax next year, the amount of money we hope to raise wouldn’t be enough to balance our budget. This means we have to make some difficult decisions about how we spend your money.

Since 2011 we have saved £334 million. However, we now need to save a further £125 million by 2021. We currently spend £3.1 million every year on bus subsidies and community transport grants. We fund these bus services because they are important to the communities and passengers who use them.

We are proposing to carry out a review of the money we give to bus companies to subsidise bus routes and the grants we give to community transport operators, with a view to saving £0.5 million in 2018/19.

We want to look at whether we could get better value for money without there being a noticeable impact on passengers. However it is likely that we would need to prioritise which services we continue to support in order to save some of this money.

 

[gingerheid]

I don’t see anything strange about Stagecoach buying NG. They were buying a decent business in an area where First were visibly failing – they might not have seen how quickly First would pull out of Kings Lynn local operations, but they must have seen the potential.

But part of what they were buying was routes they'd already walked away from post Cavalier. That's just always going to be hard to explain!!!

 

[overthewater]

But part of what they were buying was routes they'd already walked away from post Cavalier. That's just always going to be hard to explain!!!

To be fair NG made a land grab for the 505...

 

[Busaholic]

They always do, I quite agree. For a while First was the way to be, and Lockhead was the saviour of the bus industry, especially around the time Grampian took over Badgerline but made everyone think it was the other way around.

Now, as @TheGrandWazoo knows, I've never had much time for Stagecoach and I've not mellowed in my old age. The only unusual thing about their behaviour in Darlington was that people noticed and the Competition Commission cared. @overthewater posted a lovely video about them in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bus-programmes.156626/ from the early 90s. I don't understand their reputation for originality and innovation, their business model has always been more about driving the competition off the road through unsustainably low fares and cross-subsidising from areas where they don't have competition. Stagecoach Gold isn't anything that Yorkshire Rider weren't doing in the late 80s. They are competent though, they know exactly how much they can squeeze from every part of their business.

Which leads me back to Norfolk Green. I thought it a strange acquisition for them when they bought it. Norfolk Green (like Western Greyhound*) did well carving a niche out of routes that bigger businesses with bigger overheads couldn't or wouldn't sustain. Norfolk Green was not a bloated business. I never quite understood what the long-term aim was for that business. Stagecoach's ruthless efficiency wouldn't improve an already efficient business.

*Ah, Western Greyhound. Another business that carved a niche out of low-margin routes that the big boys couldn't or wouldn't entertain. It's sad how it ended because it masks how good they were for so long. But the problem with a business based on efficiently running low-margin routes, if the income drops even slightly then a comfortable living turns into a massive loss. And if you're already running efficiently, any cost savings you make damage the business (e.g. cleaning, maintenance), which just accelerates the spiral. ENCTS has an awful lot to answer for.

I know you're totally against ENCTS: I'm not, but I agree with you to the extent that its continued funding by central government should have been written into the legislation, but then when did Gordon Brown ever get anything totally right?

There's just one thing I'll say in favour of Souter and that is that he is indisputably a 'busman' whereas Lockhead probably shared Margaret Thatcher's view on bus passengers.

 

[overthewater]

Brown did plenty right I will never understand WHY ENCTS is not controlled national like the other three schemes.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

But part of what they were buying was routes they'd already walked away from post Cavalier. That's just always going to be hard to explain!!!

It's not really hard to explain when you think that Ben Coulson was a former Stagecoach employee... after all Julian Peddle has a habit of selling bits of his empire to Arriva and it's predecessors... it seems normal in the bus industry to sell to those you know well... after all you probably share a large extent of your ethos with those you have formerly worked with

 

[johnw]

Lynx must of known what they were doing, KL to Hunstanton, a ‘local’ company in a red ECOC livery.... it would then harm Stagecoach.

Stagecoach has often stated that they will not go after competitors if they are doing a good job.

The downfall of Stagecoach Norfolk is Lynx - may they fall

 

[317 forever]

Lynx could expand their local portfolio of routes in King's Lynn. Apparently they are evaluating how most effectively to expand in the area. With Stagecoach and even Go-Ahead having to some extent retreated in the area, I wonder whether Tower Transit, who own Whippet, will want to buy Lynx or Go-Ahead East Anglia operations, or even Ipswich Buses?

 

[jamesontheroad]

Someone has started A VERY SHOUTY ALL CAPS PETITION to "save" the Coasthopper bus. I'm not sure who it is directed at.

When Stagecoach withdraw, are they likely to take all or some of the fleet with them? Would they be receptive if Lynx (or another operator) made them an offer?

 

[A0]

whereas Lockhead probably shared Margaret Thatcher's view on bus passengers.

I suspect you're think of a quote which was wrongly attributed to Margaret Thatcher.

Perhaps time to Google to find out who really said it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect you're think of a quote which was wrongly attributed to Margaret Thatcher.

Lockhead said he fully agreed with Thatcher's changes to the bus industry. As well he would, it made him much richer than a general manager of a council bus company should ever have been.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/apr/26/3

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lockhead said he fully agreed with Thatcher's changes to the bus industry. As well he would, it made him much richer than a general manager of a council bus company should ever have been.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/apr/26/3

That he’s a wealthier man is not in dispute. However, many bus company managers were also massively fed up with archaic working practices, central control that stifled innovation, levels of bureaucracy etc.

Let’s not forget that the bus industry was typified by massive subsidy, high cost base, and reducing passenger ridership.

 

[overthewater]

Someone has started A VERY SHOUTY ALL CAPS PETITION to "save" the Coasthopper bus. I'm not sure who it is directed at.

When Stagecoach withdraw, are they likely to take all or some of the fleet with them? Would they be receptive if Lynx (or another operator) made them an offer?

YET the council paid for it during winter months, do there not ?Hence how Lyxs got the contact last winter?

 

[Busaholic]

Lockhead said he fully agreed with Thatcher's changes to the bus industry. As well he would, it made him much richer than a general manager of a council bus company should ever have been.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/apr/26/3

In addition to that, I have a faded page from a Sunday Times Business News in which he proclaimed Thatcher to be his hero on all sorts of levels: he was absolutely besotted. I don't think Souter ever grovelled at her feet, though I'm willing to be corrected.

 

[Busaholic]

I suspect you're think of a quote which was wrongly attributed to Margaret Thatcher.

Perhaps time to Google to find out who really said it.

She had plenty of years when it was quoted for her to deny making it. Maybe someone reminded her that Jim Callaghan denied asking 'crisis? What crisis?' a few weeks before he lost the 1979 Election to her: his denial did him no good, and wasn't believed by many.

 

[overthewater]

The Sun can spin anything...