Norfolk Green (Now Stagecoach Norfolk) to be binned

[ChathillMan]

Link says it all

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/bre...osal-to-close-king-s-lynn-bus-depot-1-8356470

Bus operator Stagecoach has announced it is carrying out a review of its Norfolk operations, including the potential closure of its Lynn depot. Managers say they have met with union representatives and launched a consultation exercise with staff.

The company says it is also working with Norfolk County Council on “steps to protect as much of the local network as possible.”

Stagecoach took over most of West Norfolk’s bus services when it bought Norfolk Green in 2013.

However, Andy Campbell, managing director of its eastern division, said this evening: “We are a significant local employer and we understand the importance of bus services for the local community. We also know that any change can be unsettling for our people. “That’s why we are working closely with both the trade union and local authority to protect as many jobs and as much of the local network as possible.....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Link says it all

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/bre...osal-to-close-king-s-lynn-bus-depot-1-8356470

Very disappointed in you - can’t you be more tooth gnashing? Where’s the blind speculation about who wants to buy into the area? (tongue in cheek)

 

[Danfilm007]

Wow! That's a shame as it seemed to be so well run by NG, but maybe they could see the money that Stagecoach can't?

To be honest, I can see either someone like Centrebus moving into the area on a massive YOLO move, or being bought in bits from Brylane and First (maybe) etc.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And as if my magic.....

 

[Busaholic]

As someone who knows the area not at all, I followed the original Norfolk Green's expansionary fortunes from afar, through trade press, media forums, etc, and just when I thought to myself 'this looks like as good as it gets for NG' then they accept a very good offer from Stagecoach - yes, I know all the reasons given for the sale, but you learn (a) to read between the lines and (b) what other choices existed for the independent NG? Stagecoach may have got themselves an OK, perhaps even a good, deal, but the owner of Norfolk Green was cannier and got an exceptional one.

 

[Cesarcollie]

As someone who knows the area not at all, I followed the original Norfolk Green's expansionary fortunes from afar, through trade press, media forums, etc, and just when I thought to myself 'this looks like as good as it gets for NG' then they accept a very good offer from Stagecoach - yes, I know all the reasons given for the sale, but you learn (a) to read between the lines and (b) what other choices existed for the independent NG? Stagecoach may have got themselves an OK, perhaps even a good, deal, but the owner of Norfolk Green was cannier and got an exceptional one.

The NG sale was genuinely for health reasons and the business was successful. However, the economics of running local buses have worsened over the last 5 years. And trying to run a local business as a depot of a much larger operation which is in itself hugely demanding (Cambridge) inevitably means the local focus goes and staff loyalty erodes - and competition on the most profitable route of course doesn't help, though Stagecoach aren't known for rolling over in such situations!!

 

[Busaholic]

The NG sale was genuinely for health reasons and the business was successful. However, the economics of running local buses have worsened over the last 5 years. And trying to run a local business as a depot of a much larger operation which is in itself hugely demanding (Cambridge) inevitably means the local focus goes and staff loyalty erodes - and competition on the most profitable route of course doesn't help, though Stagecoach aren't known for rolling over in such situations!!

I'm sure you're right, but the health concern might have been fortuitous in the life of the business, insomuch as one can be. I'm not intending to imply subterfuge, I'm of an age when health concerns loom large, for friends, siblings, spouse and, loth as I am to admit it, myself, so I'm not making light of it. The business was award-winning successful, reminding me in some ways of Western Greyhound in more than just the colour scheme, but I did see signs it was at its peak. Traffic congestion played a large part in WG's eventual demise, and, from what I read, congestion was impacting NG too.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm sure you're right, but the health concern might have been fortuitous in the life of the business, insomuch as one can be. I'm not intending to imply subterfuge, I'm of an age when health concerns loom large, for friends, siblings, spouse and, loth as I am to admit it, myself, so I'm not making light of it. The business was award-winning successful, reminding me in some ways of Western Greyhound in more than just the colour scheme, but I did see signs it was at its peak. Traffic congestion played a large part in WG's eventual demise, and, from what I read, congestion was impacting NG too.

There may be one or two parallels between WG and NG - but the latter was still being proactively and enthusiastically run right to the end - I'm not sure that was so with WG. That said, timing can indeed often be fortuitous!!

 

[Busaholic]

There may be one or two parallels between WG and NG - but the latter was still being proactively and enthusiastically run right to the end - I'm not sure that was so with WG. That said, timing can indeed often be fortuitous!!

Mark Howarth was never going to sell WG to First and First would have let hell freeze over before paying a penny to MH, so there's the difference!

 

[overthewater]

Lets not forget lynxs is in the area: http://www.lynxbus.co.uk. This will be IF anything happens the third overhaul of operations within Kings lynn, first - NG - Stagecoach - ??

 

[gingerheid]

I always thought NG were a strange purchase. Realistically, it was always the case that a certain percentage of their operations consisted of routes Stagecoach had previously abandoned!

 

[MisterWhippy]

Oddly, I was wondering what the hell was up with Stagecoach in Lynn the other week. I covered it for my old job and the half hourly Spalding services had the old, crappy busses. Ive also never fathomed why they need 3/4 busses an hour to Hunstanton (if you include Lynx in that too). Particularly in December..

I wouldn’t be surprised if First take it over, Stagecoach has no real reason to be in Lynn as it doesn’t fit in as such with its other operations.

 

[overthewater]

Oddly, I was wondering what the hell was up with Stagecoach in Lynn the other week. I covered it for my old job and the half hourly Spalding services had the old, crappy busses. Ive also never fathomed why they need 3/4 busses an hour to Hunstanton (if you include Lynx in that too). Particularly in December..

I wouldn’t be surprised if First take it over, Stagecoach has no real reason to be in Lynn as it doesn’t fit in as such with its other operations.

Two points:

* Spalding service is supposed to be every 20mins
* First got rid of it in the first place to NG, there no way its going back to first. There dont need another basket case.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I see the rampant speculation klaxon has well and truly sounded! I'm surprised that Go Ahead, Arriva and RATP haven't had a mention yet!

AFAIK, the sale to Stagecoach was clearly a deal both sides were happy with. Stagecoach wanted to expand and it was a good firm; meanwhile, Ben Colson had been ill and that does make for a reappraisal of priorities.

Anyone who's been there knows it's difficult operating territory. Lynx are competing on the only other decent route to sunny Hunny. The extended Coasthopper along to Cromer et al is extremely seasonal. The area has long expanses of f*** all punctuated by sheep and seagulls and not much more. That, and the problems that are affecting all operators as ENCTS remuneration doesn't reflect costs and retail footfall reduces patronage.

First retained their depot for the Excel route and may look at whether there is anything that they might wish to bolt on, but it's a large gap that Stagecoach will create. I know people get very aerated over First but the bus industry as a whole is facing some almost existential challenges in some places.

 

[ChathillMan]

Norfolk Green may have been award winning, but so was Reays and Western Greyhound.

History is littered with former operators that looked good on the surface and in those glossy bus magazine spreads when in reality it was a pile of rubbish.

 

[Robertj21a]

Norfolk Green may have been award winning, but so was Reays and Western Greyhound.

History is littered with former operators that looked good on the surface and in those glossy bus magazine spreads when in reality it was a pile of rubbish.

Except that Norfolk Green wasn't 'a pile of rubbish'.

 

[smtglasgow]

What’s happening in Kings Lynn is going to played out elsewhere in 2018 and beyond. The industry is clearly in a bad place at the moment and the big groups are all struggling to maintain margins and keep shareholders happy. All the big groups have loss-making/poorly performing depots and networks – Stagecoach are simply demonstrating again that they have business nous to get out of a bad situation quickly. Very sad for the staff affected, but there are other operators who will (probably!) step in.

With NG, it does seem sad that it has ended like this. Ten years ago they seemed like the future – able to run a smart modern fleet in unpromising territory. But austerity has transformed the landscape and perhaps what is now needed is an operator without the overheads/margin demands of a Stagecoach or First.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Except that Norfolk Green wasn't 'a pile of rubbish'.

We should also caution against revisionist history of Western Greyhound. The last few years were awful - a terrible fire was obviously a massive impact. I would point that things were already on the slide before that as they probably overstretched themselves with vehicles out based some distance from base and consequent impact on presentation and management.

However, in their prime in the mid to late noughties (and when they did garner awards), they were truly a good company. From 2012, it was when the cracks appeared as they lost work and council cuts began to hit.

The least said about Messrs Smith and Bishop, the better.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Konectbus have announced they are registering a Norwich to Fakenham service from April. At least hourly Mon-Sat.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Very sad for the staff affected, but there are other operators who will (probably!) step in.

But here is the issue. Are there?

As has been noted, there is already another operator on the Hunstanton route, and probably an over-provision at present. East of King's Lynn, those potential other operators do exist. South and west of it, there are some issues. There are small operators who could pick up minor routes on contracts, although there has to be a danger of a couple of routes falling down cracks when Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire, and Norfolk point at each other and say "That one is your problem".

It wouldn't be too logistically difficult for Stagecoach to move services in the March and Wisbech area onto the Peterborough licence, although whether it actually wants them is another question. But the Spalding route looks awkward. It needs nine buses, and most of those small operators won't have the resources or indeed the inclination to take on anything so big, while a middle-sized operator out of (purely randomly, you understand!) Boston or Bourne would see too much dead mileage in vehicle positioning to want it.

 

[overthewater]

So its 18th April when stagecoach are thinking of passing the buck? Im surprised there not gone after the 29 aswell to well. For the looks of it the network will be broken up. I think lynxs will end up with stuff.


Just for ref Stagecoach ARE making cuts within Cambridge: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/news/east/2018/february/service-changes-february-2018
This must be the third set of changes with the past couple of weeks............

STAGECOACH ANNOUNCES CHANGES TO CAMBRIDGE CITI BUS NETWORK
Changes to Cambridge Citi network effective from Sunday 18th February

• Citi 1, 2 & 3 will all see new timetables introduced
• Citi 2 to provide new daytime link to Coldham’s Lane Sainsbury’s
• There are also changes to routes 11/12 from the same date
• Routes Citi 3 and 17 will also change on the 4th March 2018

From 18th February 2018 Stagecoach East will be making a number of changes to its Cambridge Citi bus services to improve reliability and connectivity over a core part of its network.

Citi 1/3 will see a change to the frequency at Fulbourn during the day time (Monday to Saturday) with buses operating every 30 minutes. Evening and Sunday buses will not change.

Citi 2 will continue to operate every 10 minutes Monday to Saturday daytimes between Cambridge North Rail Station and Mill Road. Buses will then continue every 20 minutes to Addenbrooke’s, and every 20 minutes to Coldham’s Lane Sainsbury’s providing a new link to the store.

There will also be changes to Saturday morning frequencies on Citi 1, 2 & 3 with buses running up to every 20 minutes before 0900.

From the same date there will also be changes to routes 11 & 12 between Cambridge, Bury St Edmund’s & Ely. Buses on route 11 will only operate between Bury St Edmund’s and Newmarket off peak. There will be a minor alteration to the 12 timetable which will enable customers to change buses at Newmarket Bus Station for onward travel to Cambridge/Ely.

Stagecoach East will be making further changes from Sunday 4th March 2018. From this date service 17 will no longer operate. Journeys on Citi 3 will be extended from the Fulbourn Superstore to replace journeys on route 17 between Cherry Hinton and Stetchworth.

These changes are being made due to declining passenger numbers and the ever increasing congestion within Cambridge, which hampers the progress of the buses.

New timetables are available to view online and will be available in print shortly. Customers can also download the free Stagecoach app – available in the App and Play stores – or use the website journey planner to plan their journeys. New timetable information will be available via the app or journey planner from week commencing 29th January 2018.

 

[MedwayValiant]

That press release is horribly bad written, and almost gives the opposite impression to what is actually happening. I initially read "Buses on route 11 will only operate between Bury St Edmund’s and Newmarket off peak" as meaning that there will no longer be a service between Newmarket and Bury at peak times. What it actually means is that passengers from Cambridge to Bury will now have to change at Newmarket, except that there will still be through buses at peak times.

The bus industry does shoot itself in the foot at times.

 

[Robertj21a]

It sounds like Lynx intends to pick up most of the work.

 

[overthewater]

From its Facebook page:

Following the announcement yesterday (30th January 2018) that Stagecoach in Norfolk are likely to close their King’s Lynn based bus operation, Lynx are now looking into the viability of providing replacement bus services.

Julian Patterson, Director at Lynx said “We don’t envisage that any locations that are currently served by Stagecoach in Norfolk will be left without a bus service from 30th April 2018. However, due to the relatively short timescales involved it’s possible that any replacement bus services that we introduce may not initially operate quite as frequently as they do at the moment.”

Additionally, Lynx are now working closely with Norfolk County Council regarding the existing Stagecoach bus network, including those services which are subsidised by the County Council.

Julian Patterson also stated that “As a result of the likely expansion of our business in the near future we will welcome job applications from those with the PCV (bus) driving entitlement on their licence including those that currently work for Stagecoach, providing that they can demonstrate high standards of customer care and driving abilities.” There are also likely to be a small number of engineering and cleaning positions.

Lynx, still a relatively new bus operator in West Norfolk & King’s Lynn commenced its first bus service in January 2015 operating hourly between King’s Lynn and Hunstanton on route 35. Since starting the frequency of Lynx buses on this particular route has increased to three buses per hour in each direction as a result of increased demand for high quality bus services in the area. Additionally Lynx have been successful in winning tendered bus routes such as Service 37 (King’s Lynn to Downham Market) and Service 48 (King’s Lynn to Gayton & Grimston) from Stagecoach.

More information regarding any replacement bus services will be made public once plans are finalised in the coming months.

 

[Anthony ross]

If I remember correctly RATP did pit in a bid for Norfolk Green but that was rejected by the then current owner and the company was then purchased by stagecoach

 

[Busaholic]

Norfolk Green may have been award winning, but so was Reays and Western Greyhound.

History is littered with former operators that looked good on the surface and in those glossy bus magazine spreads when in reality it was a pile of rubbish.

I can't comment on Norfolk Green or Reays from personal experience, but I can on Western Greyhound. For a start, their livery and its application was hardly the stuff of 'glossy magazine spreads' and, personally, I disliked it intensely, but it didn't matter while they were doing the job that First perhaps could and should have been doing, plus various innovations or their own from individuals who knew the industry inside out and had seen, from the inside, how not to do things as well as best practice. WG's downfall was not actually the appalling fire (although it brought matters to a head) but imo threefold:-
1) The loss of a series of contracted routes in West Cornwall on re-tendering
2) The impact of traffic delays/congestion on WG's original mid/east Cornwall network, which made the 'hubs' of inter-connections impossible to maintain on occasion, particularly in the summer months
3) Cornwall Council's approach to reimbursement of free pass journeys, which Mark Howarth, MD of WG, was outspoken about and CC made sure he paid for those comments.

On 1) when First took over (again) on routes serving Helston and the Lizard there were many letters in the local paper from people decrying the poor service and attitudes of many of the drivers. They can't all have been 'fake news'! First Kernow has improved a lot since then, of course.

Seeing how you speak of 'history being littered' can you please provide other examples? I could provide examples where the former 'cowboy' has become in effect the 'sheriff'.

 

[ashworth]

So its 18th April when stagecoach are thinking of passing the buck? Im surprised there not gone after the 29 aswell to well. For the looks of it the network will be broken up. I think lynxs will end up with stuff....

The hourly 29 from Wells to Fakenham, although quite a short distance route, carries lots of longer distance passengers to Norwich or Kings Lynn who change buses in Fakenham. If Wells to Fakenham, Fakenham to Norwich and Fakenham to Kings Lynn end up being run by different operators, that could be the end of through ticketing, meaning big increases in fares.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just for ref Stagecoach ARE making cuts within Cambridge:

Stagecoach are massively retrenching all over the place, I'm amazed that more isn't being made of it on here to be honest. I can't help but wonder just how rosy the garden is. The cuts up here have been pretty significant.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can't comment on Norfolk Green or Reays from personal experience, but I can on Western Greyhound. For a start, their livery and its application was hardly the stuff of 'glossy magazine spreads' and, personally, I disliked it intensely, but it didn't matter while they were doing the job that First perhaps could and should have been doing, plus various innovations or their own from individuals who knew the industry inside out and had seen, from the inside, how not to do things as well as best practice. WG's downfall was not actually the appalling fire (although it brought matters to a head) but imo threefold:-
1) The loss of a series of contracted routes in West Cornwall on re-tendering
2) The impact of traffic delays/congestion on WG's original mid/east Cornwall network, which made the 'hubs' of inter-connections impossible to maintain on occasion, particularly in the summer months
3) Cornwall Council's approach to reimbursement of free pass journeys, which Mark Howarth, MD of WG, was outspoken about and CC made sure he paid for those comments.

On 1) when First took over (again) on routes serving Helston and the Lizard there were many letters in the local paper from people decrying the poor service and attitudes of many of the drivers. They can't all have been 'fake news'! First Kernow has improved a lot since then, of course.

Seeing how you speak of 'history being littered' can you please provide other examples? I could provide examples where the former 'cowboy' has become in effect the 'sheriff'.

That is exactly what I alluded to in being “on the slide” before the fire, and the impact of council cuts etc. Decent firm when in their prime and worthy recipient of awards at the time.

Stagecoach are massively retrenching all over the place, I'm amazed that more isn't being made of it on here to be honest. I can't help but wonder just how rosy the garden is. The cuts up here have been pretty significant.

When you’ve internet shopping reducing high street shopping by 5%, the issues of local government cuts seeing services axed (esp those evening and Sunday routes that provided much needed contribution), insufficient ENCTS money and a failure to tackle traffic congestion meaning firms have to either widen headways to operate with the same resources or have more resources to attract the same revenue, it is a toxic mix.

I know there are firms who have gone to the wall because of inherently daft business models or poor management. However, the number of casualties is quite something since 2010.

People get greatly in a lather about First making cuts but I’ve mentioned before that it is industry wide and it’s not just Stagecoach getting a free pass at times.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When you’ve internet shopping reducing high street shopping by 5%, the issues of local government cuts seeing services axed (esp those evening and Sunday routes that provided much needed contribution), insufficient ENCTS money and a failure to tackle traffic congestion meaning firms have to either widen headways to operate with the same resources or have more resources to attract the same revenue, it is a toxic mix.

I completely agree, I'm just surprised more isn't being made of it on here. The focus always seems to be on First and, to a lesser extent, Arriva. Stagecoach seem to get a free pass, even where their retrenchment is far in excess of what other operators in the area are doing (as is the case with Busways).