North TPE May 2014 proposed timetable

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aformeruser

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To avoid dragging the thread on Scottish/Cumbria TPE services too far off topic I thought it would be best to start a new thread for this.

The plan is for 5tph:
1. Liverpool to Newcastle via Chat Moss and Victoria
2. Liverpool to Scarborough via Warrington
3. Airport to York
4. Airport to Middlesbrough
5. Piccadilly to Hull

There are expected to be changes to the timetable over the following few years.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 14 timetable - northroute (eastbound) sx.pdf

The calling patterns are on page 97 of this document:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...dacted fx model_passenger_contract_051011.pdf I've noticed Manchester Oxford Road is omitted for Liverpool-Scarborough via Piccadilly.

The proposed daily Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester Airport service is interesting!
 
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cle

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Interesting. So just 1tph via Victoria so far, and first stop Huddersfield. 28 mins not as quick as I might have thought. The dwell seems quite long also.
 

aformeruser

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Interesting. So just 1tph via Victoria so far, and first stop Huddersfield. 28 mins not as quick as I might have thought. The dwell seems quite long also.

I think this will pre-date the Ordsall Chord being open so the Airport services can't be moved yet. I also imagine the stock to run the proposed Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts won't be available yet - but based on the above it could well be that the Hull train eventually forms one of the semi-fasts.

With Barrow and Bolton seeing a significant cut in TPE frequency I imagine the diesels released from Chat Moss will be needed to enhance local services on those lines.

The dwell time might allow for a crew change.
 

WatcherZero

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Explains how they arrived at the 80% increase in Scotland capacity figure, from 22 services to 30 services per day, wasnt refering to the actual passenger capacity of the services but number of services themselves.

Some quotes from the submission;
These increases in service frequency and strengthening will provide an increase of one third in the peak time capacity provided by TPE for the key Northern cities of Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield and Liverpool, double the improvement that could be delivered by strengthening existing services. This will provide much needed capacity on peak time services and provide for market development and growth, in advance of further enhancements through the Northern Hub.

routing the Liverpool – Newcastle services via the Chat Moss route brings significant journey time improvements, which are further enhanced by the completion of the CP4 line speed improvement scheme;

delivering over 50% of the total HLOS required capacity increment into key Northern cities and delivering substantial improvements in journey times on the routes identified in the HLOS;

contribute to a reduction of 50% in subsidy required from government;

One million extra annual passengers by the end of the TPE franchise extension at a BCR of 3.

Development work undertaken by TPE with industry partners through the RUS process and further work carried out independently has identified significant scope to better segment short and longer distance passengers and provide significant improvements to capacity, journey times and frequency.

Total net benefits of £928m;
• £589m revenue benefits;
• £161.1m highway decongestion, accident and environmental benefits; and
• £424.6m Journey Time Impacts.

Cost £313m to implement and allow £246.6m of future revenue which would not presently occur due to passenger overcrowding disincentive.

No weekend timetable changes proposed yet as they havent been sufficently developed and consulted so at the moment existing timetable assumed to continue. Timetable developed in conjunction with Northern due to impact of each others timetables on Manchester and Leeds.

Substantial journey time improvements of 15 minutes Manchester - Liverpool and 35 minutes Liverpool – Newcastle, taking advantage of the investments made on the route

'TPE will develop a electric hub in the Manchester area which will serve as an important precursor for future electric Manchester-York services.'
 

tbtc

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Sheffield - Huddersfield - Manchester sounds fun (Barnsley to join the TPE map?).

Nice to see several mentions for Rotherham Masborough too... ;)
 
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markydh

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Northbound Barrow services are...

3 Manchester Airport - Barrow via Chorley
1 Manchester Airport - Barrow via Wigan
1 Manchester Piccadilly - Barrow via Chorley
4 Preston - Barrow
2 Lancaster - Barrow

Southbound it is...

3 Barrow - Manchester Airport via Chorley (2 morning peak, 1 off-peak)
1 Barrow - Manchester Victoria via Chorley (off-peak)
3 Barrow - Preston
3 Barrow - Lancaster

There are currently 10 TPE services to/from Barrow Monday to Friday. The proposals increase that to 11 northbound (southbound stays 10). Most through trains to Manchester Airport are going but the overall level of service remains the same with Lancaster and/or Preston providing connections onto TPE Scotland/Man Apt or Blackpool/Man Apt services. Unfortunately I can't quantify that yet as the link to the sample North West/Scotland TPE timetable on the NR website is broken.

As for North TPE, there are wins and losses really. It's not going to be especially fun trying to get to Manchester Airport from Newcastle for most of the day given they are proposing to go via Manchester Victoria BEFORE the chord is built meaning either a trek across Manchester City Centre to Piccadilly or changing at Northallerton/York/Leeds/Huddersfield. However, the service will at least be hourly, with no gaps between the first TPE departing Newcastle at 06:03 and the penultimate service at 20:10. For example, the 07:33 NCL - MIA is replaced with two services running NCL - LIV at 07:06 and 08:06. Similarly, in the evening the 18:52 NCL - MIA is replaced with two services, an 18:10 NCL - LIV and a 19:06 NCL - MIA. An extra service will run from NCL - MIA at 20:10 with the current 21:54 NCL - MIA staying almost as is, just with minor timing improvements (leaving 1 minute later and arriving 5 minutes earlier).

In the Northbound direction, it looks like the Northern service from Darlo to Newcastle at 07:20 is being replaced by a 07:15 TPE service (which interestingly starts at Darlo and arrives in Newcastle 16 minutes earlier). There will also be an extra NCL arrival at 09:11 (ex LIV), plugging a present 2 hour gap. A similar gap in the late afternoon is plugged by a 17:11 arrival, with a present 19:34 arrival (ex MIA) replaced by arrivals at 19:11 and 20:15. There's an extra evening arrival at 21:11.

The slightly (or very) daft result of the proposed timetable is that Northallerton will now have 2 services in the space of 5 minutes southbound with ex Newcastle services at xx51 and ex Middlesbrough services at xx56 (they are separated by circa 20 minutes at the moment). Indeed, Middlesbrough services are changed massively moving from an xx50 departure time to xx28.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Does this mean the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will be discontinued ? There is always a good number of airline holidaymakers to America whose travel arrangements have included rail travel to and from Manchester Airport to Newcastle, without any need to transfer their luggage to another train en route. Disneyland in Orlando seems to have a good percentage destination-wise of these family groups from the North-East.
 

WatcherZero

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Yes Newcastle direct to airport is replaced by a Airport-York service.
 

aformeruser

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For passengers going between Newcastle and the Airport they can alight the Newcastle-Liverpool service at Huddersfield and board an Airport service from the same platform a few minutes later. In the other direction it doesn't work as well but we'd need to see the XC and EC timetables as well to see how good connections at Leeds/York will be.

I'd like to know more details for the Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester Airport service. It's not clear what time it would run - will it be before the first Penistone line service? will it provide a fast Huddersfield-Sheffield at a time popular with commuters? or could it be an overnight service? It certainly won't provide a fast journey time between Sheffield and Manchester and if it was just due to a lack of paths through Hazel Grove then I would have thought they'd have used the route through Marple instead.
 

David

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If it was just due to a lack of paths through Hazel Grove then I would have thought they'd have used the route through Marple instead.

Trouble is, you then run into trouble at Ardwick, as Piccadilly - Guide Bridge is just about at full capacity. That's the reason TPE were terminating at Hazel Grove with busses to Manchester the last time there was a blockade at Stockport.
 

aformeruser

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Trouble is, you then run into trouble at Ardwick, as Piccadilly - Guide Bridge is just about at full capacity. That's the reason TPE were terminating at Hazel Grove with busses to Manchester the last time there was a blockade at Stockport.

That problem isn't eliminated by sending the train via Huddersfield and it can't be going to Victoria if it's continuing to the Airport before the Ordsall Chord opens.
 

markydh

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For passengers going between Newcastle and the Airport they can alight the Newcastle-Liverpool service at Huddersfield and board an Airport service from the same platform a few minutes later. In the other direction it doesn't work as well but we'd need to see the XC and EC timetables as well to see how good connections at Leeds/York will be.
Of course this is just an interim timetable. If paths are available north of York I wouldn't be at all surprised if the York - Airport service is extended to Newcastle following electrification.
 

flymo

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This might be an interim timetable but I'm still mightily impressed with the 3 hour journey time from Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street. This is about an hour less than the loco hauled service that ran via Victoria years ago. Marvellous.
 

Statto

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Looking at the proposed timetable, i'm not too happy with 2 services an hour to Yorkshire from Liverpool departing within 5 minutes of each other[even though they have different routes to Stalybridge] then a 50-55min wait for the next direct train. If the path was available, i'd depart the xx:12 to Newcastle at xx:42.

Also any ideas what's happening with the Northern service Liverpool-Man Apt, as thew currant timetable, that departs Lime Street around xx:12, will it just be re-timed or withdrawn?
 

tbtc

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Does this mean the Manchester Airport to Newcastle service will be discontinued ? There is always a good number of airline holidaymakers to America whose travel arrangements have included rail travel to and from Manchester Airport to Newcastle, without any need to transfer their luggage to another train en route. Disneyland in Orlando seems to have a good percentage destination-wise of these family groups from the North-East.

The people of Tyneside do have their own international airport (with a station on the Metro)

I'd like to know more details for the Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester Airport service. It's not clear what time it would run - will it be before the first Penistone line service? will it provide a fast Huddersfield-Sheffield at a time popular with commuters? or could it be an overnight service? It certainly won't provide a fast journey time between Sheffield and Manchester and if it was just due to a lack of paths through Hazel Grove then I would have thought they'd have used the route through Marple instead.

Echoing my thoughts - if its valid on Sheffield - Manchester tickets then I quite fancy doing it (it could always be a reversal at Wakefield Kirkgate to give it a Manchester service?)
 

aformeruser

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Also any ideas what's happening with the Northern service Liverpool-Man Apt, as thew currant timetable, that departs Lime Street around xx:12, will it just be re-timed or withdrawn?

My educated guess based on the the following facts

* the plan is for the Lime Street-Bank Quay service to be extended to Victoria
* Liverpool to Manchester Airport is set to be a service via Warrington based on Northern Hubs plans
* The Oxford Road stop is being removed from Liverpool-Scarborough

is that one of the two Liverpool to Oxford Road stoppers will be extended to the Airport, possibly a speeded up selected stops service with the other Liverpool to Oxford Road service stopping at all stations and continuing to terminate at Oxford Rd.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The people of Tyneside do have their own international airport (with a station on the Metro)

If that is the case, why do many North-East travel companies book holidays by air, with a rail connection from Manchester Airport ? I have spoken to countless Newcastle area passengers at Manchester Airport who confirmed this fact.

Does the airport in the North-East not offer the same amount of destinations as that offered by Manchester Airport. You will recall that I mentioned Disneyland in Orlando as a popular destination for families from the North-East in my earlier posting.
 

Statto

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My educated guess based on the the following facts

* the plan is for the Lime Street-Bank Quay service to be extended to Victoria
* Liverpool to Manchester Airport is set to be a service via Warrington based on Northern Hubs plans
* The Oxford Road stop is being removed from Liverpool-Scarborough

is that one of the two Liverpool to Oxford Road stoppers will be extended to the Airport, possibly a speeded up selected stops service with the other Liverpool to Oxford Road service stopping at all stations and continuing to terminate at Oxford Rd.

That's a bit of a shame, i'd still have the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service via Chat Moss, re-timed to fit in with the TPE via Chat Moss, as then EMUs could be used on the service to Manchester Airport.
 

aformeruser

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This might be an interim timetable but I'm still mightily impressed with the 3 hour journey time from Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street. This is about an hour less than the loco hauled service that ran via Victoria years ago. Marvellous.

Liverpool-Newcastle is the headline service where they will be advertising Liverpool to Manchester in under 30 minutes and Manchester to Leeds in under 50 minutes. Hence, why the standard pattern doesn't include intermediate calls on Chat Moss or at Stalybridge or Dewsbury.

If that is the case, why do many North-East travel companies book holidays by air, with a rail connection from Manchester Airport ? I have spoken to countless Newcastle area passengers at Manchester Airport who confirmed this fact.

Does the airport in the North-East not offer the same amount of destinations as that offered by Manchester Airport. You will recall that I mentioned Disneyland in Orlando as a popular destination for families from the North-East in my earlier posting.

From another prospective Gatwick and Heathrow Airports offer destinations not available at North of England Airports, should there be semi-fast services like Manchester to Heathrow Airport and Leeds to Gatwick Airport for these markets?
 

Viscount702

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Does the airport in the North-East not offer the same amount of destinations as that offered by Manchester Airport. You will recall that I mentioned Disneyland in Orlando as a popular destination for families from the North-East in my earlier posting.

Far from it. Manchester offers far more destinations and frequency. In the summer Virgin offer up to 11 flights a week from MAN to Orlando. In addition you have Monarch, Thompson and Thomas Cook all with flights which take it up to on average two flights a day if not more.

Although routing trains from Liverpool via Victoria to Newcastle is good I think replacing the airport service with this one from Liverpool is a step backwards. Once the Chord is in use things will change and I would hope that there will be two services one from Liverpool and one from the Airport both routing via Victoria. As has been suggested above maybe the Airport York service will be extended to Newcastle once electrification is complete but that is some way off yet.
 

aformeruser

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That's a bit of a shame, i'd still have the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service via Chat Moss, re-timed to fit in with the TPE via Chat Moss, as then EMUs could be used on the service to Manchester Airport.

By the time the plan for Chat Moss has:
* Liverpool to Newcastle hourly
* Manchester Airport to Scotland hourly
* Liverpool to Blackpool hourly
* Liverpool to Wigan half-hourly
* Liverpool to Victoria half-hourly
* Manchester to Llandudno hourly

With plans to add in at a later date:
* Additional Chester-Warrington-Manchester service hourly -one of which will continue to the Airport
* Liverpool to Scotland services

1. Would there be enough capacity on Chat Moss for a Liverpool-Airport service nicely interworked with the TPE service?
2. Would there be enough EMUs available in 2014 to allow the Liverpool-Airport service to be EMU even if it was via Chat Moss?
3. With the Chester-Airport proposal could places like Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows really justify 2tph to Manchester Airport when places like Birchwood and Irlam get none?
 

scarby

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Certainly an improved night-time service from York to Scarborough (at the expense of removing the slightly increased frequency in the early evening peak), with the last train of the day shifting from 22.09 to 22.37. Would be interesting to see the westerly timings.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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From another prospective Gatwick and Heathrow Airports offer destinations not available at North of England Airports, should there be semi-fast services like Manchester to Heathrow Airport and Leeds to Gatwick Airport for these markets?

Whilst that may well be the case, it is rather "off-thread" to be introducing this point on the thread we are actually on...."North TPE May 2014 proposed timetable"...:roll:
 

tbtc

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If that is the case, why do many North-East travel companies book holidays by air, with a rail connection from Manchester Airport ? I have spoken to countless Newcastle area passengers at Manchester Airport who confirmed this fact.

Does the airport in the North-East not offer the same amount of destinations as that offered by Manchester Airport. You will recall that I mentioned Disneyland in Orlando as a popular destination for families from the North-East in my earlier posting.

There are some people who do this, of course (in the way that there are some people in Holyhead with a burning desire to travel to Cardiff or in Aberdeen who want to travel to Holyhead) - that's not to say that there are enough to actually warrant a direct hourly service. There will be demand for a direct Newcastle - Liverpool service too (or for services from Sunderland to Manchester...).

Are there enough people travelling between Tyneside and Orlando?
 

D6975

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Which way is the Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester going?
I can't find any reference to its Sheff-Hudd route.
The obvious and probably quickest route would be via Moorthorpe - Kirkgate.
Going via Barnsley would require a reversal at Kirkgate (or reinstating Horbury West chord).
 

tbtc

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Which way is the Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester going?
I can't find any reference to its Sheff-Hudd route.
The obvious and probably quickest route would be via Moorthorpe - Kirkgate.
Going via Barnsley would require a reversal at Kirkgate (or reinstating Horbury West chord).

I'd love to know whether this is a serious plan to help the people of Barnsley/Penistone/Wakefield get to Orlando easier or a typo - it opens up a few possibilities (Sheffield to Huddersfield isn't the longest distance between two cities on a Pacer, but many of the other ones like Sheffield - Leeds/ Leeds - Manchester/ Manchester - Liverpool at least have 158/185s for longer distance passengers).

I appreciate that we may only be talking about one trip a day, of course
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Are there enough people travelling between Tyneside and Orlando?

Do you therefore think that Manchester Airport are offering some special financial offers to these travel companies ?

You cannot quote the number of people using the status quo at present, as if they are on a package holiday, they have no "option" but to accept what is offered to them in their holiday package.
 

aformeruser

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TPE offer 4.5% commission to agents who sell TPE only tickets purchased directly from TPE.

Which way is the Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester going?
I can't find any reference to its Sheff-Hudd route.

It's mentioned on pages 101 and 103 in the second link in the original post. There is no standard calling pattern mentioned.

Regarding routes I've noticed they are saying they will require access to the Chester depot for light maintenance.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Far from it. Manchester offers far more destinations and frequency. In the summer Virgin offer up to 11 flights a week from MAN to Orlando. In addition you have Monarch, Thompson and Thomas Cook all with flights which take it up to on average two flights a day if not more.

Thank you for your comments, which confirm what I assumed the position would be, that Manchester Airport has a far bigger destination and flight availability situation than the airports in the North-East.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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My educated guess based on the the following facts

* the plan is for the Lime Street-Bank Quay service to be extended to Victoria
* Liverpool to Manchester Airport is set to be a service via Warrington based on Northern Hubs plans
* The Oxford Road stop is being removed from Liverpool-Scarborough

is that one of the two Liverpool to Oxford Road stoppers will be extended to the Airport, possibly a speeded up selected stops service with the other Liverpool to Oxford Road service stopping at all stations and continuing to terminate at Oxford Rd.

Are we talking about Dec 2014 or post-Northern Hub?
In Dec 2014 EMUs could take over LIV-WBQ/MIA/WGN/PRE (via Huyton) but not to MVC or BPN until Dec 2015.
Seems odd not to use an EMU to MIA (unless there aren't any!).
It would mean no use of the new wires Huyton-Parkside for a year.
I appreciate it must be difficult for NT to plan when there is so much uncertainty about EMU availability.
 
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