Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[Harvey B]

Everything's gone all quiet on the Northern 323 front. Are the refurbishments and PRM mods still happening for Northerns 323's

 

[Bovverboy]

Everything's gone all quiet on the Northern 323 front. Are the refurbishments and PRM mods still happening for Northerns 323's

Have they ever been?

 

[Harvey B]

Have they ever been?

Apparently the first one is supposed to go in August (according to @jonesy3001)

 

[AMD]

First one heads off for corrosion, PRM and refresh work (similar to the West Midlands units) on Monday.

 

[Harvey B]

First one heads off for corrosion, PRM and refresh work (similar to the West Midlands units) on Monday.

Thanks

 

[jonesy3001]

First one heads off for corrosion, PRM and refresh work (similar to the West Midlands units) on Monday.

nice, is there an headcode for it.

 

[js1000]

Not just PRM mods. A good refurbish from what I hear. Would suggest that the 323s could be staying long-term - potentially the 319s will be moved on eventually. A 319 stopped on platform 13 at Piccadilly this evening and the doors failed on one carriage which is not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Will air-con be retrofitted too similar to the 321s if they're staying?

 

[scrapy]

Will air-con be retrofitted too similar to the 321s if they're staying?

Very unlikely not a franchise requirement so unlikely to happen as it costs money.

 

[RealTrains07]

321s will be gone once more of the 331s are in service
I feel like the 319s should go more than the 323s they are unreliable no air con and yet they are the ones being converted into flex units?!?

I think a 323 would look nice if northern did put it in new livery. Then again WMR are refurbishing their 323s and their still going

 

[Harvey B]

How many 323s will be away at a time and will some 323s just get PRM mods and the rest of the refurbishment at a later date (Similar to what some of the DMU's have)

 

[js1000]

321s will be gone once more of the 331s are in service
I feel like the 319s should go more than the 323s they are unreliable no air con and yet they are the ones being converted into flex units?!?

I think a 323 would look nice if northern did put it in new livery. Then again WMR are refurbishing their 323s and their still going

I wouldn't worry. The 319s will probably be going to the scrapyard in a few years. Northern have the pick of the bunch and even the doors still fail among other problems. The same with the 769s which are effectively a DfT sponsored stop-gap to make up for abandoned electrification schemes. Additionally, there are operational disadvantages of being unable to operate the 319s as an 8 coach service (whereas they could do with the 323 and already do with the 3-car 195s on some peak services) and slower acceleration which is a problem on some routes/pathing on routes with 323 timings.

When WMT return all their 323s to Porterbrook in 2023, they will be keen for Northern to take the 323s before bidding for the next franchise starts (due 2024) as it opens the door for a rival franchise bidder, rolling stock company and manufacturer to partner up to replace the tired-looking 319s. If this happens Porterbrook could be left with the 319s and surplus 323s with no takers and a big asset writedown.

 

[RealTrains07]

I wouldn't worry. The 319s will probably be going to the scrapyard in a few years. Northern have the pick of the bunch and even the doors still fail among other problems. The same with the 769s which are effectively a DfT sponsored stop-gap to make up for abandoned electrification schemes. Additionally, there are operational disadvantages of being unable to operate the 319s as an 8 coach service (whereas they could do with the 323 and already do with the 3-car 195s on some peak services) and slower acceleration which is a problem on some routes/pathing on routes with 323 timings.

When WMT return all their 323s to Porterbrook in 2023, they will be keen for Northern to take the 323s before bidding for the next franchise starts (due 2024) as it opens the door for a rival franchise bidder, rolling stock company and manufacturer to partner up to replace the tired-looking 319s. If this happens Porterbrook could be left with the 319s and surplus 323s with no takers and a big asset writedown.

I could see the 323s being used again by northern. They could even remove some 319s even before 2024 if they do that

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think a good plan would be semi-permanently coupling most of them together to get 6 car units, quick and on the cheap. The single units can be used on services that have stations that can't take 6x23 meters.

They could even remove some 319s even before 2024 if they do that

The 319's will be dead meat with the 331's, extra 323's and the 730's going to LNWR. The 769 project seems to have very little life left in it.

 

[jonesy3001]

first one going for refurb today:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O28125/2019/08/04/advanced

 

[_toommm_]

first one going for refurb today:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O28125/2019/08/04/advanced

I don't suppose you, or anyone, knows the expected turn around time for the refurbs ?

 

[jonesy3001]

I don't suppose you, or anyone, knows the expected turn around time for the refurbs ?

sure one of our fellow forummers will know, sure it's a month.

 

[Harvey B]

sure one of our fellow forummers will know, sure it's a month.

Are there going to be some 323s getting PRM mods only and the refurbishement at a later date or are they all going to have both done at the same time? Also, if they are getting both PRM mods and the refurbishment at the same time what will happen to the remaining un-modded 323s in January? will they be withdrawn until they've been refurbished or will they get a derogation so they can remain in service without PRM mods like the 144s

 

[Greybeard33]

Also, if they are getting both PRM mods and the refurbishment at the same time what will happen to the remaining un-modded 323s in January? will they be withdrawn until they've been refurbished or will they get a derogation so they can remain in service without PRM mods like the 144s

Will the 323s not be replaced by the 3-car 331s as they enter service in the West?

 

[Harvey B]

Will the 323s not be replaced by the 3-car 331s as they enter service in the West?

Apperantly the first unit has gone for a refurb and apperantly the 319s are going. Im not sure when but the original plans were for the 323s to be replaced

 

[jonesy3001]

Are there going to be some 323s getting PRM mods only and the refurbishement at a later date or are they all going to have both done at the same time? Also, if they are getting both PRM mods and the refurbishment at the same time what will happen to the remaining un-modded 323s in January? will they be withdrawn until they've been refurbished or will they get a derogation so they can remain in service without PRM mods like the 144s

the full lot

 

[Harvey B]

the full lot

Thanks, So will there be more than one away at a time then since they won't get all 17 done in 5 months

 

[prod_pep]

It'll just be the one 323 away at a time. One of the diagrams (a mornings-only Alderley Edge - Manchester working) was switched to DMUs a couple of weeks ago to accommodate the 323 refurbishment.

 

[Harvey B]

It'll just be the one 323 away at a time. One of the diagrams (a mornings-only Alderley Edge - Manchester working) was switched to DMUs a couple of weeks ago to accommodate the 323 refurbishment.

Thanks, if that's the case then either the 323s that aren't PRM modded are going to have to be withdrawn from service until they are completed, this would probably make all EMU services in the west run by 331s, 319s and the PRM compliant 323s (which I'm assuming there to be about 5 by the end of the year) from January with the rest of the 323s phased back into service as they've been refurbished and PRM modded (I see this to be the liekly option here). The other alternatives are to keep the 323s running unmodded into 2020 with a derogation in place (like what the 144s are getting) until they go for refurbishment/PRM mods or Northern could hire some 323s from WMT short term while their own 323s are out of service waiting to go for PRM modifications/ refurbishment. That final solution will probably happen in a situation where there aren't enough 319s or 331s in service (I.E: some of the 319s start leaving Northern or not all of the 331s on the west side haven't entered service yet) but I doubt it would have to ever come to that situation that they would have to hire in some 323s from WMT on a short term basis

 

[43096]

Thanks, if that's the case then either the 323s that aren't PRM modded are going to have to be withdrawn from service until they are completed, this would probably make all EMU services in the west run by 331s, 319s and the PRM compliant 323s (which I'm assuming there to be about 5 by the end of the year) from January with the rest of the 323s phased back into service as they've been refurbished and PRM modded (I see this to be the liekly option here). The other alternatives are to keep the 323s running unmodded into 2020 with a derogation in place (like what the 144s are getting) until they go for refurbishment/PRM mods or Northern could hire some 323s from WMT short term while their own 323s are out of service waiting to go for PRM modifications/ refurbishment. That final solution will probably happen in a situation where there aren't enough 319s or 331s in service (I.E: some of the 319s start leaving Northern or not all of the 331s on the west side haven't entered service yet) but I doubt it would have to ever come to that situation that they would have to hire in some 323s from WMT on a short term basis

They won’t be hiring from WMT. There are none spare.

 

[Harvey B]

They won’t be hiring from WMT. There are none spare.

Thanks, what will happen to the unmodded 323s in January?

 

[sd0733]

Thanks, what will happen to the unmodded 323s in January?

They'll have to get a derogation to run. WM will have to aswell with 5 months left theyve got 2 out of 26 units done

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apperantly the first unit has gone for a refurb.

What internal fitment items are due for refurbishment on the Northern Class 323 units?

 

[Greybeard33]

They'll have to get a derogation to run. WM will have to aswell with 5 months left theyve got 2 out of 26 units done

If the TOC and ROSCO can demonstrate that they have a programme in place to modify the remaining units as soon as reasonably practicable, I imagine that will make it easier to persuade the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee (DPTAC) to agree a time limited dispensation for continued operation of the unmodified units. (Dispensation, not derogation, is the correct legal term under the provisions of the Railways (Interoperability) Regulations 2011. This legislation gives the DPTAC an effective veto over PRM-TSI dispensations).

 

[Greybeard33]

What internal fitment items are due for refurbishment on the Northern Class 323 units?

I imagine the refurbishment will be similar to that of the WMT units. See West Midlands Trains Class 323 refurbishment