Northern and prosecutions for railcard use before 10am

[WelshBluebird]

I wasn't suggesting that? My point was that it does seem quite a number of non-experts aren't aware of the minimum fare rule.

It's made pretty obvious in my opinion when buying a railcard. I'm not sure you can really cater for people not paying attention!
And if you did want to simplify some complex rules that railcard min fare is not where I would start - there's plenty of more complex oddities that catch people out!

I mean I just looked up a fare on the Northern app using a 16-25 Railcard (just to test, I wish I was still entitled to one ) and whilst it applied the discount correctly it gave no warning at all that the Anytime ticket I had just selected was not, in fact, valid at Anytime. Indeed quite the opposite!

View attachment 167085
(Image shows screenshot from Northern app with a 16-25 Railcard discount applied and the description of the available ticket reads "Anytime Day Single - Travel any time of day.")

I don't think we should absolve passengers of all responsibility for knowing what they can and cannot do. But at the same time that screen clearly says that the ticket can be used to travel at any time of day even though it cannot. Perhaps some sort of warning might be a wise idea? It surely wouldn't' be beyond the whit of man to have a pop-up that read words to the effect of "Please Note: Due to the type of railcard selected you CANNOT use this ticket to travel before 10am. If you wish to travel before 10am please remove the railcard and then search for your journey again". Rather than the present screen which just says "Travel at any time of day."

I was talking about the time of buying the railcard, not the ticket.

And yes i agree a warning would be good idea!

Though I suspect people would still ignore it and claim unfairness (given the guy who seems to have the news about it now specifically chose a different time train when buying the tickets because he saw that was cheaper than the earlier train he was actually getting).

In any case, prosecution is clearly the wrong option unless the person refuses to pay the excess and refuses to pay a penalty fare after that / refuses to cooperate at all.

 

[etr221]

Take a look at Northern's page on Anytime tickets: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/anytime, from which

Anytime tickets are flexible train fares that allow you to buy at any time and travel any time between your chosen stations with no time restrictions.

If you need complete flexibility in your travel times, an Anytime ticket is perfect.

Anytime tickets have no restrictions on the time of day that you can travel. With Anytime Single tickets, you can travel on any train on the date of travel booked.

And trying for the ticket in question, I got this:
Note well that it says:

• You’ve selected the 10:29, but you can travel on any eligible train.
• Travel any time of day.

... and I would regard both 09:30 and 09:59 as included in 'any time of day'

 

[ainsworth74]

I was talking about the time of buying the railcard, not the ticket.

Fair doos, it is clearer on the Railcard website though I'm still not entirely sold on the presentation of the information.

It's quite easy to land on the website be confronted with a big "Buy" button and just click on that. The screen that takes you to makes no mention of any restrictions on usage just a bit about the eligibility for the railcard. There is a tick box to confirm you've read the terms and conditions which links you to them but I think the problem here is that they look just like all the other terms and conditions that we routinely sign up for without ever bothering to read. Absolutely people should not be signing up for things they've not read but we live in the real world at the end of the day. I bet the majority of people will just assume it's just normal boiler plate rather than containing key information on how to use their railcard. Seems like that should probably be clearly enumerated somewhere on the page that you're actually on when you're buying the railcard!

These are the conditions of use:

4. Conditions of use of the 16-25 Railcard

4.1. You must be aged between 16 and 25 years old to purchase this Railcard, unless you qualify under condition 4.3.

4.2. 3-year 16-25 Railcards are available online only and may be purchased up until the day before your 24th birthday.

4.3. If you are a full-time student over 25 years old, you may purchase the 1-year Railcard with valid proof of full time study. See 16-25railcard.co.uk/maturestudents for details of the valid proof required.

4.4. If you bought your physical Railcard at a rail station, you must carry your separate 16-25 Photocard that was issued at the time of purchase (or where appropriate a ‘Permit to travel without Photocard’) and you must present this in any circumstance where you present your physical Railcard (i.e. when buying tickets and travelling with Railcard discounted tickets).

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or​

​

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or​

​

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.​

At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.

Now it basically deals with 4.1 to 4.3 on the sign up page organically (the questions is ask deal with your age based eligibility). 4.4 isn't relevant online as you can only buy a digital railcard or a plastic railcard which comes with a photo. So that only leaves 4.5. It seems to me that the page you actually are buying the railcard on needs to present, in some format, the contents of 4.5. Even if it's a simplified form which might just read something like: "Please Note: The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare of £12 which applies between 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. Some exceptions apply, please see here for full details." that would be better than the presentation at the moment in my opinion.

Even if you don't jump straight to the buy button and scroll around a bit it isn't great. Maybe you scroll down the main page until you come to "Eligibility and terms of use" which does clearly say "£12 minimum fare applies on morning peak" but if you click the "Read full eligibility and usage terms" button that doesn't actually tell you anything other than the eligibility and certainly doesn't describe the minimum fare rules, indeed the subsequent page doesn't even mention them! Click the buy button from there and you back to the page I mentioned above.

Or maybe rather than scrolling you click the "About the Railcard" button at the top. That takes you to a page which describes the benefits but nothing about the usage. Click the "Buy" button and you back to the same page I mentioned above. It does appear again on the FAQ page under "Help" but you kinda have to know what question to ask if you've gone into the FAQs and I'm not really sure we can consider it fair to say that people should read the FAQs to find out key usage requirements!

As I say the restriction isn't hidden but I really don't think that it's as well publicised as people think it is! But, in any event, should the sanction really be a criminal prosecution in cases where people have got it wrong? An excess to the appropriate un-discounted fare seems far more equitable and indeed would seem to be in line with the NRCoT to me.

 

[Kite159]

Unpopular but one solution is clearly to have the £12 minimum fare in place all day long, so nobody can accidentally purchase a ticket for a train timed after 10am to get round the 'minimum fare before 10am' rule.

Gets rid of any possible confusion.

 

[800Travel]

Unpopular but one solution is clearly to have the £12 minimum fare in place all day long, so nobody can accidentally purchase a ticket for a train timed after 10am to get round the 'minimum fare before 10am' rule.

Gets rid of any possible confusion.

Would have to be an option to refund existing railcard customers if there was such a significant change. Railcard would suddenly be of no/limited use to many.

 

[TUC]

Because normally when you have a time limited discount offer the provider automatically blocks the discount when it has expired. One would expect Northern to do the same to protect its own revenue and remind the user to renew their card and hence generate further revenue. This would seem to be very basic measures that any half decent retailer would implement.

But I'm buying an Anytime fare for the flexibility.Any time of journey I enter in the app is provisional at best.

 

[LUYMun]

Unpopular but one solution is clearly to have the £12 minimum fare in place all day long, so nobody can accidentally purchase a ticket for a train timed after 10am to get round the 'minimum fare before 10am' rule.

Well that'd be worse than getting rid of the £12 min fare altogether, for that would discourage short-distance travelling for young people. Might as well buy a bus ticket.

I'm not sure about the leaflet (I've not seen one in a long long time) but it is made pretty obvious on the website. How in your face that is made when buying is a legitimate question but they certainly don't try to hide it either - there seems to be quite a few parts of the site where it is pretty clearly mentioned.

Looking on the 16-25 railcard website, about halfway down the page there are the eligibility and terms of use which states (and take in note the bold):

Eligibility and terms of use​

• Buy a Railcard and keep it with you when you travel (on your phone or wallet)
• Save on most tickets including Advance tickets
• £12 minimum fare applies on morning peak

Clicking on the link button below to read the full terms (linking to this page), there is nothing that states when the minimum fare applies, not even a repetition of the statement:

Is this Railcard for you? A quick check to make sure you’re eligible...​

• Are you 16-25?
• Or a mature student in full-time study?
• Sweet, you can apply!

If you are between 16-25​

When you’re young you might find that you have a load of things you want to do and places to go, but never enough dosh to do them. Having a Railcard can help you save on train journeys around Britain, making your daily trips a lot less painful for your (or your mum and dad’s) bank balance. You also have the option to get a 3-year or a 1-year Railcard.

If you are aged 16 or 17, you could save even more ££ with our 16-17 Saver, which gets you 50% off rail fares, including Season tickets!

Mature students still get love​

If you are a mature student in full-time study, you can also make the most of these savings with the 1-year Railcard. But you will need to show the following:

• A Mature Student section of the 16-25 Railcard application form completed by your college or uni as proof that you’re going to a recognised institution, for over 15 hours a week, at least 20 weeks a year. This does not include Open University, distance learning and part-time courses
• An NUS card or College/University photocard as proof of identity

You can also renew your Railcard yearly, as long as you can provide proof that you’re still continuing your education.

There is of course the FAQs listed at the bottom of the page, but not many are going to be able to see it.

 

[TUC]

Unpopular but one solution is clearly to have the £12 minimum fare in place all day long, so nobody can accidentally purchase a ticket for a train timed after 10am to get round the 'minimum fare before 10am' rule.

Gets rid of any possible confusion.

So all the careful, intelligent passengers lose out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So all the careful, intelligent passengers lose out.

To me the problem is just that the Trainline derived apps say "valid at any time" against a discounted Anytime, whereas it should say "valid at any time, subject to additional Railcard restrictions" or somesuch. It's genuinely confusing.

Also it's something that should really be dealt with by a Penalty Fare (or excess, depending on reading of the NRCoT), not a prosecution.

 

[Hadders]

Now it basically deals with 4.1 to 4.3 on the sign up page organically (the questions is ask deal with your age based eligibility). 4.4 isn't relevant online as you can only buy a digital railcard or a plastic railcard which comes with a photo. So that only leaves 4.5. It seems to me that the page you actually are buying the railcard on needs to present, in some format, the contents of 4.5. Even if it's a simplified form which might just read something like: "Please Note: The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare of £12 which applies between 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. Some exceptions apply, please see here for full details." that would be better than the presentation at the moment in my opinion.

Even the terms and conditions are confusing. To me this suggests that discount before 10am applies to tickets costing £12 or more. What it should say is that before 10am the minimum railcard discounted fare is £12. Remember, we're experts on here and understand this stuff, it needs to be clear to Joe Public.

Then again, this is the railway which seems to specialise in ambiguity and confusion.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.

 

[WelshBluebird]

One various pages the railcard site does state in pretty clear language what the restriction is, and whilst it agree it could be more in your face I'd be very surprised if someone buying one didn't see at least one of the mentions. Though of course just because you show someone a message it doesn't mean they will pay attention to it.

E.g.

A minimum fare of £12 applies to all journeys made before 10:00 Monday to Friday.

The minimum fare does not apply to Advance fares, travel on public holidays or in July and August.

And

However, for all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable, excluding Advance fares. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.

And

You can travel anytime but a minimum fare of £12 applies to all journeys made between 4:30am and 9:59am, Monday to Friday excluding Advance fares. This minimum fare does not apply on public holidays or throughout July and August. See full details below

And

£12 Minimum Fare
This applies for journeys starting between 4.30am and 9:59am Monday to Friday, excluding Advance Fares. This minimum fare does not apply on Public Holidays or throughout July and August. If you’re still not sure about minimum fares, just ask at your local staffed station and some National Rail-licensed Travel Agents

 

[jamie0]

Seems the DfT agree in their comment given to the article for The Bolton News

A DfT spokesperson said: “Ticketing has become far too complicated, which is why we have committed to simplifying it for customers, as part of the biggest overhaul of our railways in a generation.

"We expect Northern to ensure their policy on ticketing is clear and fair for passengers at all times and have instructed the operator to review the details of these cases urgently.”

Passenger's criminal record and huge fine after £1.60 underpayment over fare mix-up

A passenger has been fined more than £400 and been given a criminal record after a mixup meant she travelled with a Railcard discount before she…

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Even the terms and conditions are confusing. To me this suggests that discount before 10am applies to tickets costing £12 or more. What it should say is that before 10am the minimum railcard discounted fare is £12. Remember, we're experts on here and understand this stuff, it needs to be clear to Joe Public.

Back in the day when I was young enough to have such a railcard, I could have named you several ticket offices where the staff were unaware of the minimum fare, let alone the passengers.

 

[Hadders]

Seems the DfT agree in their comment given to the article for The Bolton News

Passenger's criminal record and huge fine after £1.60 underpayment over fare mix-up

A passenger has been fined more than £400 and been given a criminal record after a mixup meant she travelled with a Railcard discount before she…

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

The problem here is you can imagine DfT simplifying things by putting in a blanket 10am restriction, or saying that Anytime tickets cannot be discounted.

Don't expect any reform to benefit passengers.

 

[trek]

Would have to be an option to refund existing railcard customers if there was such a significant change. Railcard would suddenly be of no/limited use to many.

They'll use the same excuse as for COVID: most Railcard holders got the value of the Railcard soon after buying it so no refund.

The problem here is you can imagine DfT simplifying things by putting in a blanket 10am restriction, or saying that Anytime tickets cannot be discounted.

Don't expect any reform to benefit passengers.

Absolutely, given the reaction and comments flying about generally, I'd expect a reaction on these lines.

If people pushed for retailers, particularly the most problematic in this case Trainline (including white label retailers like Northern) to change their interface to properly explain the conditions during purchase, then this issue could be vastly reduced but still be fair to those passengers who benefit.

Instead all the noise is around the fines and prosecutions likely to instead lead to a PR whitewash of withdrawing certain cases etc, meaning more persistent offenders continue to get away with Railcard fraud, those who do make a genuine mistake continue to buy the wrong ticket for their journey in apps because they don't know any better, and the railway further loses revenue. And to "prevent" the issue weaken the discount, raising fares even further by stealth, probably under the guise of "fares simplification".

 

[soil]

There is a related thread here

x.com

x.com

tl;dr is that:
1) passenger had a valid 16-25 railcard and lived in Northern Rail area.
2) passenger clicked link to 'renew' said railcard
3) passenger was thereby sold a network railcard, where the word 'network' has no meaning at all to normal people.
4) passenger had a railcard-discounted £1.90 fare but the wrong railcard, was issued a penalty fare over 90p.
5) passenger appealed against the penalty fare explaining her misunderstanding.
6) Northern ignored the penalty fare and prosecuted her, demanding £1000
7) terms and conditions on the network railcard website provide a link to a map, but the map has been dead for many months and they have done nothing to fix it, despite the lawyer helping the passenger informing Northern's solicitor of this fact

also noteworthy:

* she bought a second 16-25 railcard, aged 25 1/2
* the lawyer helping her wrongly advised her she would have to stop using this on her 26th birthday.

I would also note that the 16-17 railcard, 16-25 railcard, 26-30 railcard distinction is just idiotic. Just give 16-17 year olds child fares, and make it one 18-30 railcard without stupid distinctions. Or perhaps just merge all (family + friends, two together, 16-25, 26-30, network) into one. Ridiculous stuff tbh.

 

[trek]

Just give 16-17 year olds child fares

Very much disagree on this, as someone who looked far older at 15 having issues trying to buy child's fares when I was younger, whilst many I knew continued to buy child fares (some well into their 20s!) the 16-17 Saver provides a clear, photographic "buffer" to remove ambiguity given that we do not have or require national ID or similar. If we did, well, I could agree.

and make it one 18-30 railcard without stupid distinctions.

On the other hand given the very limited differentials this is far more sensible

 

[soil]

Very much disagree on this, as someone who looked far older at 15 having issues trying to buy child's fares when I was younger, whilst many I knew continued to buy child fares (some well into their 20s!) the 16-17 Saver provides a clear, photographic "buffer" to remove ambiguity given that we do not have or require national ID or similar. If we did, well, I could agree.

16-17 is a railcard, charged at £30/year. the 16+ zip oyster is a much better approach - a £20 one-off 'admin charge', essentially as photographic proof of age.

 

[Haywain]

the 16+ zip oyster is a much better approach - a £20 one-off 'admin charge',

But not much use for those living outside of London.

 

[soil]

But not much use for those living outside of London.

they could scrap the 16-17 'railcard' and just adopt the TFL scheme. Many 16-17 year olds have both, but obviously unnecessary bureaucracy and expense is the order of the day, so they'd be unlikely to go with that and could make their own scheme which works the same way - £20 once, valid till your 18th birthday (or a bit later).

 

[scrapy]

Whilst I can see that media articles like this may bring about more clarity on ticketing sites, the way they describe the restrictions not applying in July and August as being confusing, may lead to the industry simply changing the rules to make the minimum fare year round, which obviously isn't great for the consumer, but does simplify things. They are unlikely to simplify things to the passengers benefit.

 

[ianBR]

The industry should be banned from prosecuting anyone or issuing penalty fares until it gets its act in order and becomes more customer friendly

Most people buy e-tickets these days and there is no excuse for e-tickets not to have plain English explanations of all restrictions

In this particular case it wouldn’t take much logic to put something like this in an eticket where a railcard was used and it was less than 12 pounds

Anytime Day Return (not valid before 10am)


Expecting customers to know that anytime tickets less than £12 can be used before 10am in July and August but not at other times is ridiculous.

The same with restriction codes. Obviously on a paper ticket a code is needed but an e-ticket could easily have free text at the end explaining any restrictions. 90% of customers will have no idea what a restriction code is or where to even look up what it means.

 

[TUC]

Expecting customers to know that anytime tickets less than £12 can be used before 10am in July and August but not at other times is ridiculous.

That's really not hard to understand is it?

 

[AlterEgo]

That's really not hard to understand is it?

It is harder to understand when passengers legitimately travel before then without paying £12 all the time, on Advance fares. It is a very counterintuitive rule and is not really a minimum fare at all.

 

[TUC]

It is harder to understand when passengers legitimately travel before then without paying £12 all the time, on Advance fares. It is a very counterintuitive rule and is not really a minimum fare at all.

Given how long the exception for July and August has been in place, I'm still left with the impression of a certain group of people failing to read and/or understand what everyone else has managed to do for several decades.

 

[AlterEgo]

Given how long the exception for July and August has been in place, I'm still left with the impression of a certain group of people failing to read and/or understand what everyone else has managed to do for several decades.

You can think that but someone I know who does thousands of miles a year on a railcard was surprised at the rule yesterday when this story came to light, and didn't know of it. He's been using Advances and various other tickets before 10am before and couldn't describe the rule to me at all.

 

[talldave]

Given how long the exception for July and August has been in place, I'm still left with the impression of a certain group of people failing to read and/or understand what everyone else has managed to do for several decades.

But the world has changed. Decades ago, the only way of buying a ticket was from a person at the ticket window. A friendly reminder about validity would have come with any borderline purchase.

Now the youngsters live in a world of apps with discount cards, member cards, points cards and railcards, they're going to do what it says on their screen and it's therefore perhaps mildly confusing to describe tickets as "valid at any time" when they're not.

 

[ainsworth74]

But the world has changed. Decades ago, the only way of buying a ticket was from a person at the ticket window. A friendly reminder about validity would have come with any borderline purchase.

Now the youngsters live in a world of apps with discount cards, member cards, points cards and railcards, they're going to do what it says on their screen and it's therefore perhaps mildly confusing to describe tickets as "valid at any time" when they're not.

It also seems a ludicrous sanction to be criminally prosecuted when you get it wrong...

I think the railway and those who back it up in these situations are steadily sleeping walking into quite a dangerous situation when it comes to consumer confidence. They might wrap themselves up in the comfy wool of "well this is all perfectly clearly explained therefore anyone who gets it wrong really only has themselves to blame for their criminal record" but I don't think the vast majority of normal people would consider that a criminal prosecution with attendant criminal record and a fine/costs amounting to the tick end of £500 is a justifiable or reasonable sanction for an error that cost the railway £1.90.

 

[Somewhere]

The people writing the code for the apps and websites probably don't understand the rules themselves, possibly never using trains.
Hopefully Northern will have to refund all these people, and it will end up costing Northern more money than they've made from the scam.
This, and the Post Office scandal should perhaps show that private prosecutions shouldn't be allowed, as these privateers cannot be trusted to use their powers sensibly

 

[talldave]

It also seems a ludicrous sanction to be criminally prosecuted when you get it wrong...

Agreed. If Sainsbury's find I've missed an item on self-scanning, they charge the correct price and flag me for further checks. They don’t prosecute me for the price of a can of beans.

The people writing the code for the apps and websites probably don't understand the rules themselves, possibly never using trains.
Hopefully Northern will have to refund all these people, and it will end up costing Northern more money than they've made from the scam.
This, and the Post Office scandal should perhaps show that private prosecutions shouldn't be allowed, as these privateers cannot be trusted to use their powers sensibly

Neither do the Twitter teams probably. The underlying issue is that railcards are fundamentally stupid. We only need a 31-59 Billy No Mates card to complete the set, at which point we can just give everyone the cheaper price and be done with it.