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Northern cancellations getting worse

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YorksLad12

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I had a weird one on Thursday. The 0838 from Leeds to Sheffield last Thursday was showing as running to Lincoln on RTT; by the time I got to Leeds Station it was the 0838 to Sheffield via Sheffield as there was no crew from Sheffield; the train's destination display said Gainsborough Lea Road; the Guard said we were only going as far as Sheffield; the PIS said Gainsborough; then the Guard announced that they'd found someone to do the run out to Lincoln. A very confusing *10* minutes.
 
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zwk500

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The way Northern is run has left me unconvinced that Labour's plan to take the TOC contracts back into public ownership is necessarily the answer.
Indeed. The fundamental problem is politicians getting too involved in decision making at too finer a detail level. I don't see any politician being willing to give up power, sad to say.
 

JamesT

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Indeed. The fundamental problem is politicians getting too involved in decision making at too finer a detail level. I don't see any politician being willing to give up power, sad to say.
There’s also the flip side to the power, in that the politicians are deemed to be responsible for the railways. How much pressure is there on the government of the day to “do something” about a problem? Take the NHS, the reforms in 2012 made NHS England an arms-length body which should stop politicians meddling. The latest changes give the Secretary of State more powers to direct them.
 

zwk500

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There’s also the flip side to the power, in that the politicians are deemed to be responsible for the railways. How much pressure is there on the government of the day to “do something” about a problem? Take the NHS, the reforms in 2012 made NHS England an arms-length body which should stop politicians meddling. The latest changes give the Secretary of State more powers to direct them.
politicians seem to be less and less worried about accountability, probably because they've made sure to water down the checks on themselves at the same time they've been centralising power (both parties, I should be clear).
 

asw22

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Since 2 April I've had 4 cancelled trains (Airedale line into / out of Leeds) with 2 on a Sunday evening, 1 on a Sunday lunchtime, and 1 on a Thursday morning. I have also seen cancelled journeys on 2 other days when I managed to get an earlier train and there seems to be a pattern appearing as to which less journeys are less reliable than others.

Luckily tonight I checked the National Rail departures in just enough time so that I was able to catch a bus for the journey instead, rather than having to wait another hour.

It is starting to feel like 2019 again when it was easier for me to take a bus journey of 1 hour 15 minutes than risk a 15 minute walk to Leeds train station for a train journey of 30 minutes which would be cancelled or delayed on 3 or 4 days out of 6.

I also note that the trains seem busier in Spring 2023 than they did in autumn 2022, but maybe not as busy as late 2019, as judged by no seats being available on 4 or 5 days a week for the morning journeys and the evening journeys (after 7pm) have also picked up during the past 2 to 3 months.
 

Bantamzen

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Since 2 April I've had 4 cancelled trains (Airedale line into / out of Leeds) with 2 on a Sunday evening, 1 on a Sunday lunchtime, and 1 on a Thursday morning. I have also seen cancelled journeys on 2 other days when I managed to get an earlier train and there seems to be a pattern appearing as to which less journeys are less reliable than others.

Luckily tonight I checked the National Rail departures in just enough time so that I was able to catch a bus for the journey instead, rather than having to wait another hour.

It is starting to feel like 2019 again when it was easier for me to take a bus journey of 1 hour 15 minutes than risk a 15 minute walk to Leeds train station for a train journey of 30 minutes which would be cancelled or delayed on 3 or 4 days out of 6.

I also note that the trains seem busier in Spring 2023 than they did in autumn 2022, but maybe not as busy as late 2019, as judged by no seats being available on 4 or 5 days a week for the morning journeys and the evening journeys (after 7pm) have also picked up during the past 2 to 3 months.
I'm dreading the timetable change next month with off-peak Bradford Forster Square services to Ilkley & Skipton dropping back to an hour. Last year quite a few hourly services up to Ilkley were canned, meaning 2 hour gaps between services on a line long used to a half hourly one. Quite often I'd abandon the train for the A3 or even set off walking along the canal as a result. And frankly I found myself using more buses in general than I usually would as it just felt like less of a risk as it at least felt like at the first sign of a problem, the Ilkley services would be dropped.
 

43066

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I'm dreading the timetable change next month with off-peak Bradford Forster Square services to Ilkley & Skipton dropping back to an hour. Last year quite a few hourly services up to Ilkley were canned, meaning 2 hour gaps between services on a line long used to a half hourly one. Quite often I'd abandon the train for the A3 or even set off walking along the canal as a result. And frankly I found myself using more buses in general than I usually would as it just felt like less of a risk as it at least felt like at the first sign of a problem, the Ilkley services would be dropped.

It almost sounds like a deliberate strategy to drive people away from the railway…
 

Bantamzen

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It almost sounds like a deliberate strategy to drive people away from the railway…
Honestly it feels like it. Northern managed to re-instate the 2tph services on all routes for the winter timetable, but now feel unable to run it for what is by far the busier period again. And now they are competing with the bus companies in West Yorkshire with the flat fares of £2 single, £4.50 day rover tickets. If it weren't for the driver issues at companies like TransDev I feel certain they would be starting to try to build capacity on the current and old routes (Bradford - Ilkley is only covered by bus as far as Guisesley these days).

In the meantime the roads around here clog up more and more (with an ever increasing number of accidents as drivers get more impatient with growing queues) at a time when Northern should be trying to build passenger numbers.
 

D6130

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In the meantime the roads around here clog up more and more (with an ever increasing number of accidents as drivers get more impatient with growing queues) at a time when Northern should be trying to build passenger numbers.
Unfortunately, as I've said in previous posts, Northern can't build passenger numbers when their drivers are leaving at a faster rate than they can recruit and train new ones. One of the many inherent weaknesses of the privatised, fragmented railway - which still applies in the present altered circumstances - is that the regional passenger companies are treated as the training camps for new drivers. The have to carry the expense of recruitment and training new drivers who, after about three years of productive - but mind-numbingly boring - work, leave for more lucrative and interesting jobs with companies such as LNER, Avanti Freightliner or GBRF....which have until recently only recruited qualified drivers. In these circumstances, the trains which will be canned on a medium- to long-term basis will be those that carry the fewest passengers....in order to inconvenience the fewest people. There is no easy answer to this. In an ideal world, the new GBR - if it ever happens - would have a single salary level for all drivers....just as BR did. However the costs of bringing the regional and suburban companies drivers' salaries up to the present day levels of those employed by the inter-city and freight companies would be eye-watering. It seems to me that the only solution is to permanently reduce the frequencies on a lot of suburban and regional routes....which would be wonderful for the decarbonisation targets - not! I'm afraid the chickens hatched through years of lacking a coherent transport policy - from governments of both colours - are rapidly coming home to roost. :(
 

Bantamzen

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Unfortunately, as I've said in previous posts, Northern can't build passenger numbers when their drivers are leaving at a faster rate than they can recruit and train new ones. One of the many inherent weaknesses of the privatised, fragmented railway - which still applies in the present altered circumstances - is that the regional passenger companies are treated as the training camps for new drivers. The have to carry the expense of recruitment and training new drivers who, after about three years of productive - but mind-numbingly boring - work, leave for more lucrative and interesting jobs with companies such as LNER, Avanti Freightliner or GBRF....which have until recently only recruited qualified drivers. In these circumstances, the trains which will be canned on a medium- to long-term basis will be those that carry the fewest passengers....in order to inconvenience the fewest people. There is no easy answer to this. In an ideal world, the new GBR - if it ever happens - would have a single salary level for all drivers....just as BR did. However the costs of bringing the regional and suburban companies drivers' salaries up to the present day levels of those employed by the inter-city and freight companies would be eye-watering. It seems to me that the only solution is to permanently reduce the frequencies on a lot of suburban and regional routes....which would be wonderful for the decarbonisation targets - not! I'm afraid the chickens hatched through years of lacking a coherent transport policy - from governments of both colours - are rapidly coming home to roost. :(
I understand the issues at hand, although you'd hope that those in charge would have previously been proactive in trying to mitigate for it. However cutting services, especially where they are not covered by bus routes is a sure fire way to drive more people away. As I mentioned in my previous post, even I found myself drifting away from the trains last summer with Transdev getting more of my hard earned. Its risking becoming a death by a thousand cuts, services are scaled back whilst TOC managers flail about trying to sort staffing levels out, passengers abandon the trains so that when new drivers come onboard there's fewer passengers so fewer services are needed, so drivers look to move on.

What an absolute mess the railway industry is in. Honestly I'm only glad I may only have another few years where train travel is necessary, after that I'm going to be able to choose more to stay away if things don't improve... :(
 

ainsworth74

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but now feel unable to run it for what is by far the busier period again.
Or are they being told to cut costs by the DfT and this was a route where it was decided to drop the axe?
It depends which part of Northern you are referring to.
Yes it remains fascinating how even though it's been one company for twenty odd years now it still feels like at least two if not three distinct entities when it comes to passenger experience of things like reliability of service. Even in May 2018 when Manchester was imploding, up here in the North East it was all running fairly smoothly (and still is for the most part!) so it would have felt odd to strip the franchise from Arriva from our point of view.
 

Neptune

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Or are they being told to cut costs by the DfT and this was a route where it was decided to drop the axe?
Every company is having to make sacrifices sadly thanks to the DfT’s insistence.

That the Bradford - Skipton/Ilkley services are being halved for 5 hours or so during the day is due to the lack of demand on this route. Fortunately for the busier of these routes there are plentiful connections up to Skipton with a change at Shipley.

Ilkley is unfortunate in some ways but the ridership on BDQ - ILK services during those hours is seriously low with some services recording single digits of passengers travelling on the section between Guiseley and Shipley with a half hourly service in place (the ‘crucial’ missing link). Most passengers in Wharfedale prefer to travel to Leeds even when there is a half hourly service on both routes.
 

Bantamzen

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Every company is having to make sacrifices sadly thanks to the DfT’s insistence.

That the Bradford - Skipton/Ilkley services are being halved for 5 hours or so during the day is due to the lack of demand on this route. Fortunately for the busier of these routes there are plentiful connections up to Skipton with a change at Shipley.
The only problem here is that with the reduced timetable, the service arriving from Wharfedale is at xx:44, with the next regular Skipton at xx:09. A 25 minute connection, actually worse than the Leeds one by one minute. Given the overall journey times that is crap.

Ilkley is unfortunate in some ways but the ridership on BDQ - ILK services during those hours is seriously low with some services recording single digits of passengers travelling on the section between Guiseley and Shipley with a half hourly service in place (the ‘crucial’ missing link). Most passengers in Wharfedale prefer to travel to Leeds even when there is a half hourly service on both routes.
The line hasn't had a the same level of service during the summer since 2019, so its practically impossible now to say what the demand is without, well you know seeing what the demand is. A half-hourly service (providing its reasonably reliable) is just about good enough to encourage people to make impromptu leisure journeys (an important part of Ilkley's economy especially in summer) as well as provide reasonable assurance to passengers making more regular journeys. Most people do usually travel to Leeds, but not exclusively. In the 15 years I've lived here I've seen plenty of very busy off peak trains as well as empty ones. But ridership on the line was generally on the up the line until the pandemic, but now it is being suppressed. Last year we were told it was to allow for training of crews, this year we are told it is because of a lack of drivers or DfT cost cutting demands. The reality is that this, a bit like Huddersfield - Castleford, it is an easy yet lazy target to appease the DfT bean counters.

Now the former is really something that the TOCs should have a better handle of, the latter. Well cost cutting doesn't necessarily mean having to cut services, efficiency savings and/or revenue improvements could / should easily fill the gap. And earning revenue is what TOCs should be encouraging right now, not stifling. But as mentioned further above, it seems now parts of the railway industry seem to be locked into almost discouraging passengers and giving up at the first sign of anything getting difficult.
 

northernchris

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Northern isn't wonderful, but it's far better than when Arriva had anything to do with it.

It's difficult to compare Arriva and OLR as the circumstances are different. Arriva suffered badly from unit shortages due to the PRM refurbs, and weren't permitted to pre-cancel journeys the day before as now. I don't remember any east side depot struggling as much as Sheffield are now, and cancellations are still relatively high across the network.
 

J-2739

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It's difficult to compare Arriva and OLR as the circumstances are different. Arriva suffered badly from unit shortages due to the PRM refurbs, and weren't permitted to pre-cancel journeys the day before as now. I don't remember any east side depot struggling as much as Sheffield are now, and cancellations are still relatively high across the network.
I remember Sheffield and beyond having a really bad spell of cancellations towards the end of 2019/just before Covid lockdowns.
 

Peterthegreat

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Just as I thought it can't get any worse. Northern have cancelled FOUR consecutive stopping services from Sheffield to Doncaster. Nothing between the 12.05 and 17.05 departures. The cynic in me things this is semi-deliberate so as to have an excuse to permanently reduce the timetable.
 

Moonshot

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Just as I thought it can't get any worse. Northern have cancelled FOUR consecutive stopping services from Sheffield to Doncaster. Nothing between the 12.05 and 17.05 departures. The cynic in me things this is semi-deliberate so as to have an excuse to permanently reduce the timetable.
Trains can't run if there is no conductor for the service.....it's that simple
 

Tracked

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I remember Sheffield and beyond having a really bad spell of cancellations towards the end of 2019/just before Covid lockdowns.
Yes, I used to commute from Chesterfield to Doncaster around then and there were problems from late September 2019 to Christmas, some of these were as a result of the weather; the worst being early November, where the line was flooded near Rotherham and between Mexborough-Conisbrough, but there was a similar issue maybe three or four weeks before then which I think affected the line at Barnby Dunn, but still affected trains from Sheffield.

As far as I remember, from Jan 2020-Lockdown their service had improved (East Midlands' hadn't).

Just as I thought it can't get any worse. Northern have cancelled FOUR consecutive stopping services from Sheffield to Doncaster. Nothing between the 12.05 and 17.05 departures. The cynic in me things this is semi-deliberate so as to have an excuse to permanently reduce the timetable.
Had a similar problem March last year, got into Mexborough from Doncaster around 10:45, got back for the 18:30 train and that was literally the first one back since I'd arrived, think it was staff sickness.
 

td97

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I will when I have time. However as a starter the obvious thing is to put stops in the fast service.
Such as this...
15:57 Sheffield to Scarborough due 18:43 will be diverted between Meadowhall and Swinton S.Yorks.
It will call additionally at Rotherham Central, Swinton S.Yorks, Mexborough and Conisbrough.
It will be delayed due to the diversion and is expected to be 7 minutes late.
This is due to the train making extra stops because a train was cancelled.
 

Moonshot

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I will when I have time. However as a starter the obvious thing is to put stops in the fast service.
Which happens on a very regular basis anyway. The fact that a particular train is cancelled doesn't actually mean the passenger won't get to where they want to go. As always, the view from the inside is a lot more enlightened than everyone else's.
 

Peterthegreat

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Which happens on a very regular basis anyway. The fact that a particular train is cancelled doesn't actually mean the passenger won't get to where they want to go. As always, the view from the inside is a lot more enlightened than everyone else's.
It does happen sometimes. However it is not always communicated and entered into on line systems. Tonight the last stopping service from Doncaster is cancelled. On some (most?) previous occasions stop orders have been given to one of the later "fast" services. I suspect this may happen tonight but it is yet to be communicated.
 
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