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Northern cancellations getting worse

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43066

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But that's my point. If being in the public sector made any difference, why is a TOC like Northern every bit as dismal in its abilities as when it was privatrly owned?

Fair enough.

I suppose the answer to that is that it doesn’t make any difference.

The OLR TOCs are essentially just employing the staff and carrying out the core business functions, with no real commercial incentives. The privately owned ones are being paid a fee under the NRCs, so also don’t really have any incentive to do more than the bare minimum under those contracts to ensure they get paid.
 
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tbtc

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But that's my point. If being in the public sector made any difference, why is a TOC like Northern every bit as dismal in its abilities as when it was privatrly owned?

I’d argue that the public sector status of Northern makes a huge difference to its abilities

It’s much worse now than under Serco/ Abellio/ Arriva!

At least those TOCs stuck to promises regarding services (e.g. Bentham line up from five a day to eight a day)/ introducing the 195s and 331s/ implementing Northern Connect etc - we knew that things would improve because the franchise requirements set these improvements out

The public sector Northern has ripped up various timetables, left some stations without a service for months (has Brigg had a train in the past year?), cancelled a load more services just before ten o’clock the night before (to avoid having to compensate people), cancelled plans for things like the fast Nottingham - Westgate - Bradford train, cut the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper from half hourly to every ninety minutes, continues to run some “cancelled” services ECS for staff training (even though passengers aren’t allowed to board)… they’ve been a disaster

However, because it’s a public sector organisation wielding these cuts, the people who squealed if any Serco service was a couple of minutes late seem scared to question the Emperor’s clothes - I remember the days that teething problems with the introduction of the 319s saw a fresh thread opened on the Forum every time one failed, the worry about the cost of repainting a few station signs etc… but the OLR’s public sector status means that they get a free pass, people seem reluctant to question why they are doing worse than the private firms that went before them (If Nationalisation is the panacea that some have certainly claimed)
 

43066

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The public sector Northern has ripped up various timetables, left some stations without a service for months (has Brigg had a train in the past year?), cancelled a load more services just before ten o’clock the night before (to avoid having to compensate people), cancelled plans for things like the fast Nottingham - Westgate - Bradford train, cut the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper from half hourly to every ninety minutes, continues to run some “cancelled” services ECS for staff training (even though passengers aren’t allowed to board)… they’ve been a disaster

But TPE and Avanti do all of this as well, while not being OLR owned. The ownership really makes no difference.
 

CE142

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But TPE and Avanti do all of this as well, while not being OLR owned. The ownership really makes no difference.
Exactly! It's seems that lots of people have axes to grind over Northern, whilst other TOCs get away scot free.
 

skyhigh

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At least those TOCs stuck to promises regarding services (e.g. Bentham line up from five a day to eight a day)/ introducing the 195s and 331s/ implementing Northern Connect etc - we knew that things would improve because the franchise requirements set these improvements out
I don't think Northern Connect ever saw the light of day under Arriva
 

TUC

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I’d argue that the public sector status of Northern makes a huge difference to its abilities

It’s much worse now than under Serco/ Abellio/ Arriva!

At least those TOCs stuck to promises regarding services (e.g. Bentham line up from five a day to eight a day)/ introducing the 195s and 331s/ implementing Northern Connect etc - we knew that things would improve because the franchise requirements set these improvements out

The public sector Northern has ripped up various timetables, left some stations without a service for months (has Brigg had a train in the past year?), cancelled a load more services just before ten o’clock the night before (to avoid having to compensate people), cancelled plans for things like the fast Nottingham - Westgate - Bradford train, cut the Sheffield - Doncaster stopper from half hourly to every ninety minutes, continues to run some “cancelled” services ECS for staff training (even though passengers aren’t allowed to board)… they’ve been a disaster

However, because it’s a public sector organisation wielding these cuts, the people who squealed if any Serco service was a couple of minutes late seem scared to question the Emperor’s clothes - I remember the days that teething problems with the introduction of the 319s saw a fresh thread opened on the Forum every time one failed, the worry about the cost of repainting a few station signs etc… but the OLR’s public sector status means that they get a free pass, people seem reluctant to question why they are doing worse than the private firms that went before them (If Nationalisation is the panacea that some have certainly claimed)
Well said!
 

td97

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cancelled a load more services just before ten o’clock the night before (to avoid having to compensate people)
It appears they have stopped that practice so far this week.
 

driverd

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Exactly! It's seems that lots of people have axes to grind over Northern, whilst other TOCs get away scot free.

I think the point is more that the old franchising system delivered a far better railway. The current system is defacto nationalisation with a company (govt or private, doesn't really matter) as a middle man - investing nothing and with no incentive to deliver anything above what gets them their fee.

I'd completely support the notion that in the public eye, northern come in for the abuse, whilst TPE seem to get off without even being mentioned, despite delivering a horrific service (if you can even call it that).
 

Killingworth

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I'd completely support the notion that in the public eye, northern come in for the abuse, whilst TPE seem to get off without even being mentioned, despite delivering a horrific service (if you can even call it that).
That's largely due to Northern operating a much larger route network with a lot more services to go wrong and many more people to be inconvenienced.

ITVs Calendar on 12th December featured the dire service by TPE on the South Pennine route and it's certainly appeared in the Sheffield press and in local social media. I see plenty of abuse aimed at TPE there, but as so many have stopped using their trains altogether there are fewer left to complain!
 

gazzaa2

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Thankfully my train to and from work has been running okay this week (CLC) but the numbers have fell off a cliff. What was a busy 4 car train (crush loaded if 2 cars) has had about 1 carriage worth of passengers this week.

Time of year won't help (January a quieter month) but the unusable service of the previous month would have put a lot of people off. Same thing happened after the year long strikes around 2018, it stayed quiet at least until after that was resolved.
 

Killingworth

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Thankfully my train to and from work has been running okay this week (CLC) but the numbers have fell off a cliff. What was a busy 4 car train (crush loaded if 2 cars) has had about 1 carriage worth of passengers this week.

Time of year won't help (January a quieter month) but the unusable service of the previous month would have put a lot of people off. Same thing happened after the year long strikes around 2018, it stayed quiet at least until after that was resolved.

You're lucky. The Hope Valley stopping service that's been getting commuters into Sheffield for about 8.30 ever since the line was opened in 1894 was retimed to arrive at 9.05 from December. Yes, it means it's now a clock face timetable but as most users have access to cars they won't be going by train half an hour earlier or later in the morning, and wont be coming back later in the day. That's before cancellations and the frequently late trains are added in to the mix.
 

driverd

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You're lucky. The Hope Valley stopping service that's been getting commuters into Sheffield for about 8.30 ever since the line was opened in 1894 was retimed to arrive at 9.05 from December. Yes, it means it's now a clock face timetable but as most users have access to cars they won't be going by train half an hour earlier or later in the morning, and wont be coming back later in the day. That's before cancellations and the frequently late trains are added in to the mix.

Sorry, but I'm not entirely sure why re-timing a train 25 mins earlier is a total disaster?

If I was commuting by rail and worked a 9-5 job (almost certainly flexi-time, as per most office jobs these days), I really wouldn't be put off using the train for the sake of setting an alarm 25 mins earlier. Personally I'd use the accrewed 2 hours (or just shy of) per week to give myself a Friday flyer.

I would argue, in a period where there's mass culls to services in certain areas, it perhaps seems a little silly to kick up a fuss over a small adjustment that makes the overall timetable more sensible?
 

Watershed

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Sorry, but I'm not entirely sure why re-timing a train 25 mins earlier is a total disaster?

If I was commuting by rail and worked a 9-5 job (almost certainly flexi-time, as per most office jobs these days), I really wouldn't be put off using the train for the sake of setting an alarm 25 mins earlier. Personally I'd use the accrewed 2 hours (or just shy of) per week to give myself a Friday flyer.

I would argue, in a period where there's mass culls to services in certain areas, it perhaps seems a little silly to kick up a fuss over a small adjustment that makes the overall timetable more sensible?
That's fine and good if you can do flexi-time, but not all employers are that generous. If you need to be in the office for 9am on the dot, it's effectively extended your commute by half an hour. It's not difficult to see how this is an unpopular change, even if it's in favour of a more clockface timetable.
 

driverd

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That's fine and good if you can do flexi-time, but not all employers are that generous. If you need to be in the office for 9am on the dot, it's effectively extended your commute by half an hour. It's not difficult to see how this is an unpopular change, even if it's in favour of a more clockface timetable.

Surely in 2023, the number of employers who don't offer flexitime must be an absolute minority - especially in the 9-5 commuter market. Not offering flexible working is broadly seen as a way to lose 95% of good candidates nowadays.

I completely take the point if we're talking about less office based roles - but surely if you have fixed shifts, one man's loss will be another's gain? (Eg: the person who had to arrive for 0830 but didn't start while 0930 due to the gap in the timetable is happier).
 

Killingworth

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Surely in 2023, the number of employers who don't offer flexitime must be an absolute minority - especially in the 9-5 commuter market. Not offering flexible working is broadly seen as a way to lose 95% of good candidates nowadays.

I completely take the point if we're talking about less office based roles - but surely if you have fixed shifts, one man's loss will be another's gain? (Eg: the person who had to arrive for 0830 but didn't start while 0930 due to the gap in the timetable is happier).
That's how Northern and Network Rail planners understandably see it, for the greater good. However there are still quite a lot of jobs still organised around a 9.00 start. That's a discussion recurring elsewhere in other threads.

I use one example. Senior University lecturer who needs to be in to lead groups due to start at 9. Her child minding in New Mills now has to be arranged to start half an hour earlier which puts strain on the child minder. Every time longstanding public transport arrangements are changed they have unknown knock on effects on people's lives - that's inevitable but they can't be expected to like it, or carry on using the amended services.
 

Bantamzen

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That's how Northern and Network Rail planners understandably see it, for the greater good. However there are still quite a lot of jobs still organised around a 9.00 start. That's a discussion recurring elsewhere in other threads.

I use one example. Senior University lecturer who needs to be in to lead groups due to start at 9. Her child minding in New Mills now has to be arranged to start half an hour earlier which puts strain on the child minder. Every time longstanding public transport arrangements are changed they have unknown knock on effects on people's lives - that's inevitable but they can't be expected to like it, or carry on using the amended services.
That's unfortunate for that person, but you can hardly expect Northern to consult every single passenger on every change. Have you not considered that the change may have worked out better for other passengers?
 

daodao

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The Hope Valley stopping service that's been getting commuters into Sheffield for about 8.30 ever since the line was opened in 1894 was retimed to arrive at 9.05 from December. Yes, it means it's now a clock face timetable but as most users have access to cars they won't be going by train half an hour earlier or later in the morning, and wont be coming back later in the day.
Exactly. Most jobs in shops and offices in city centres have a fixed 9am start, and trains arriving in the city centre at 0805 am and 0905 am are useless for such employees. Northern is clearly not interested in local commuters on the Hope Valley line. The absence of a return trip at about 1745 (in addition to that at 1714) is also not helpful. Since the demolition of the island and eastern platforms at Dore in the mid-1980s, it has not been possible for mainline local services from the South calling at Dronfield to call at Dore as well in order to improve the service from this station.
 

Bantamzen

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Exactly. Most jobs in shops and offices in city centres have a fixed 9am start, and trains arriving in the city centre at 0805 am and 0905 am are useless for such employees. Northern is clearly not interested in local commuters on the Hope Valley line. The absence of a return trip at about 1745 (in addition to that at 1714) is also not helpful. Since the demolition of the island and eastern platforms at Dore in the mid-1980s, it has not been possible for mainline local services from the South calling at Dronfield to call at Dore as well in order to improve the service from this station.
I'm not sure that timetable changes are in scope of this thread, so I'll keep this brief. But how many people only walk into their place of employment at bang on 09:00? I know when I briefly worked in retail as a teenager, a 9am opening did not mean walking through the door at 9am. You got there well before, and set up ready to receive punters at 9. Methinks this is simply a stormy tea-cup scenario.
 

ricoblade

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On a positive note, Brigg line services are running today for the first time in 54 weeks!
 

Iskra

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Fantastic, and not many Northern cancellations seen at Sheffield station over the last 3 days, just TP still having problems. Northern seem to be improving :)
 

yorksrob

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On a positive note, Brigg line services are running today for the first time in 54 weeks!

That's certainly something to celebrate.

Can we have our Huddersfield - Castleford all day service back now as well please :)
 

ricoblade

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That's certainly something to celebrate.

Can we have our Huddersfield - Castleford all day service back now as well please :)

Yes, as long as we can have the extra 1/2 hourly semi-fasts back on the Sheffield to Lincoln line :D
 

BPN2022

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Fantastic, and not many Northern cancellations seen at Sheffield station over the last 3 days, just TP still having problems. Northern seem to be improving :)
January is generally good for cover. Don’t tend to have anywhere near as many train crew shortages.
 

Peterthegreat

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Whilst overall Northern services are probably getting better the situation in South Yorkshire is still abysmal with numerous cancellations.
Today Northern have "pulled" one in three of the Doncaster to Adwick stoppers and the whole of the Sheffield to York services. These are due to Short notice alterations to the timetable". There is no information and they don't appear as cancelled on Journey Check.
 

Iskra

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There were a lot of cancellations yesterday around Sheffield too. Was there an issue that kept more trains than normal on Sheffield depot as there seemed to be a lot stabled?
 

Peterthegreat

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There were a lot of cancellations yesterday around Sheffield too. Was there an issue that kept more trains than normal on Sheffield depot as there seemed to be a lot stabled?
South Yorkshire is currently the "hub" of Northern Cancellations. Difficult to know whether there are any extenuating circumstances or it's down to poor management.
 

Iskra

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South Yorkshire is currently the "hub" of Northern Cancellations. Difficult to know whether there are any extenuating circumstances or it's down to poor management.
My gut feeling given the constant (but low level) weekend cancellations out of Sheffield, is that the bank holiday accentuated the existing rostering struggle and nobody was willing to work overtime with it being a bank holiday with nice weather forecast (which is fair enough). I'm not sure whether something else happened on top of this though; the number of units stabled at the depot suggest something may have happened to block units in? Or was it possibly something to do with engineering works at Dore or East of Meadowhall where some services were buses.
 

Peterthegreat

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My gut feeling given the constant (but low level) weekend cancellations out of Sheffield, is that the bank holiday accentuated the existing rostering struggle and nobody was willing to work overtime with it being a bank holiday with nice weather forecast (which is fair enough). I'm not sure whether something else happened on top of this though; the number of units stabled at the depot suggest something may have happened to block units in? Or was it possibly something to do with engineering works at Dore or East of Meadowhall where some services were buses.
The Doncaster stopping service was reduced by a third and the York service reduced. That would save at least two units.
 
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