Northern cancellations getting worse

[pemma]

maybe we’ve not got the model of nationalisation that lots of people spent the austerity years arguing for but we’ve certainly got the unaccountable / underperforming/ chaotic public sector mess that I argued against

Be careful what you wish for, folks…

I'm not sure why the unions were ever in favour of nationalisation. They argued greedy private companies were making huge profits but then used that as ammunition for getting their members big pay rises, while public sector staff were getting pay frozen. Now the unions have the 'benefit' of nationalisation for their Northern and LNER members, they are striking.

 

[skyhigh]

For information, I understand that Northern ceased running trains to Manchester United Football Ground Halt due to security concerns following the Manchester Arena bombing.

The security cordon for the stadium was widened and now includes the station. For that reason, it's unlikely to ever see a train again. It wasn't a choice by Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The security cordon for the stadium was widened and now includes the station. For that reason, it's unlikely to ever see a train again. It wasn't a choice by Northern.

Though also it is now operationally a faff to serve even if they wanted to - it used to be an extension of the Deansgate terminators which reversed in a siding pretty much opposite the stadium and could easily be switched to reversing in the stadium platform instead.

With several nearby Metrolink stations it really isn't necessary, much as it was an interesting quirk.

 

[pemma]

Helsby to Ellesmere Port service cancelled again this evening. One taxi has been organised to transport any passengers. As that'll obviously be much cheaper to run, I wonder if it'll become a semi-permanent feature. The idea of it becoming a useful commuter service to and from Manchester Victoria seems to have been dropped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Helsby to Ellesmere Port service cancelled again this evening. One taxi has been organised to transport any passengers. As that'll obviously be much cheaper to run, I wonder if it'll become a semi-permanent feature. The idea of it becoming a useful commuter service to and from Manchester Victoria seems to have been dropped.

It won't be useful until Merseyrail reaches Helsby. People just aren't going to use those occasional services. So this is probably the lowest impact thing they can do on their whole network to free up a unit and crew.

 

[pemma]

Northern have now cancelled the 17:39 Manchester to Chester, having deleted the 18:39 Manchester to Chester from the schedule. That's four missing services by the time there's two peak time extras yet to be reinstated. Apparently Oceans are providing a replacement bus from Piccadilly and another starting at Knutsford. I hope the Piccadilly one has plenty of capacity!

Also it appears a bus company based in Sale, Trafford are running a Worksop to Redford rail replacement bus!

EDIT: Replacement bus from Manchester reported arriving at Altrincham 50 minutes late, only for it to stop in the wrong place then to immediately leave, with staff having to recall the bus for passengers to actually board it. Northern will be happy when they lose every single passenger and don't have to worry about running trains ever again!

 

[MattRat]

Helsby to Ellesmere Port service cancelled again this evening. One taxi has been organised to transport any passengers. As that'll obviously be much cheaper to run, I wonder if it'll become a semi-permanent feature. The idea of it becoming a useful commuter service to and from Manchester Victoria seems to have been dropped.

Luckily that will be resolved when Merseyrail extend services to Helsby, and you can get on the Chester service to Manchester or even onto the TFW one.

 

[Llandudno]

Luckily that will be resolved when Merseyrail extend services to Helsby, and you can get on the Chester service to Manchester or even onto the TFW one.

I very much doubt if Merseyrail will extend services to Helsby, complete waste of money!

Money would be better spent extending Merseyrail to Neston or Shotton.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Looks like no trains at Windermere between 09.56 and 13.58 today?

My parents are aiming at the 10.52... with a gap like that I guess northern are obliged to provide a taxi to Oxenholme?

 

[pemma]

My parents are aiming at the 10.52... with a gap like that I guess northern are obliged to provide a taxi to Oxenholme?

Unfortunately not. The taxi requirement is only if the last train is cancelled and even then there's the option of an overnight hotel if a taxi isn't practical. I think there may be a refreshment requirement on lengthy delays but I'm not 100% sure if that applies to trains or not.

The National Rail app is showing replacement buses though:
10:57 Oxenholme
11:47 Oxenholme
13:07 Preston

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Unfortunately not. The taxi requirement is only if the last train is cancelled and even then there's the option of an overnight hotel if a taxi isn't practical. I think there may be a refreshment requirement on lengthy delays but I'm not 100% sure if that applies to trains or not.

The National Rail app is showing replacement buses though:
10:57 Oxenholme
11:47 Oxenholme
13:07 Preston

Thank you; I'll let them know about the 10.57 bus.

 

[pemma]

Thank you; I'll let them know about the 10.57 bus.

The station should have a manned ticket office, so hopefully they'll direct any passengers to the appropriate place and keep them informed if there's a delay in sourcing the bus.

 

[MattRat]

I very much doubt if Merseyrail will extend services to Helsby, complete waste of money!

Money would be better spent extending Merseyrail to Neston or Shotton.

They already have the trains for it. Where's the money waste. In fact, Shotton would be the bigger waste, because TFW already ordered 'new' units for the line that would become surplus to requirements (less units required for the shorter route), and that's not even mentioning where on earth in Shotton do you put both trains without it getting clogged due to high frequency.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The station should have a manned ticket office, so hopefully they'll direct any passengers to the appropriate place and keep them informed if there's a delay in sourcing the bus.

The staff at Windermere thought the 10.57 bus would miss their booked connection at Oxenholme ( 11.23 to Euston ) and have put them in a taxi with instructions to claim it back*.


*This could be fun couldn't it...?

 

[pemma]

The staff at Windermere thought the 10.57 bus would miss their booked connection at Oxenholme ( 11.23 to Euston ) and have put them in a taxi with instructions to claim it back*.


*This could be fun couldn't it...?

That sounds like an unusual course of action, unless they felt your parents had some mobility issue that either prevented them using the replacement bus or didn't think they should be on a later Oxenholme to Euston service with no seat reservation. Even if the latter was true the train manager of a later service should assist in finding them either an unreserved seat or a priority seat.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That sounds like an unusual course of action, unless they felt your parents had some mobility issue that either prevented them using the replacement bus or didn't think they should be on a later Oxenholme to Euston service with no seat reservation. Even if the latter was true the train manager of a later service should assist in finding them either an unreserved seat or a priority seat.

They're early / mid 80s and my Mum has difficulty walking, so it was likely that.

 

[GordonT]

They're early / mid 80s and my Mum has difficulty walking, so it was likely that.

Also with the Oxenholme lock-in debacle still fresh in folk's memories perhaps some staff in the area regardless of their TOC are being careful to give customer needs a bit more primacy?

 

[Kite159]

.

Also with the Oxenholme lock-in debacle still fresh in folk's memories perhaps some staff in the area regardless of their TOC are being careful to give customer needs a bit more primacy?

Although it would have been better for the taxi to be put on the TOC account rather than the passengers to have to pay for it from their own pocket to claim it back.

As I suspect Northern will try and get out of paying the money back somehow.

 

[Confused52]

The poor performance on the West side of Northern is predominantly because the driver's union and the company can't agree on the rosters that have been in place since May. This means drivers are still working to pre-May working hours, which don't match the new jobs that have been in place. There are more than enough drivers in to cover everything, just that they are in at the wrong times. Neither side will budge on their position. Some days they can cut and paste all the jobs and manage to cover them all.
Add in no rest day working for drivers and the lack of goodwill from all train crew due to the ongoing industrial disputes, it all results in a very messy and increasingly unreliable operation.

I have seen no push back on this post. Is what jonnyfan said in the first paragraph correct?

 

[MikeWM]

I'm intending to travel the rather simple journey of Liverpool to Huyton around 5pm tomorrow (well, today now). Pre-covid this had 5 trains an hour, so not something worth planning.

But tomorrow it looks like there are only 2 trains *timetabled* to run between 4pm and 5pm - at 1627 (after a 42-minute gap) and 1645.

Worse, between 5pm and 6pm there are 4 timetabled - at 1709, 1728, 1736 and 1745 - but of those only the 1709 appears to be due to run - the other three have *already been cancelled* according to Northern's journey planner!

That's really not very good - is it always this poor? I think I'll probably go for the bus instead.

 

[Granpuff]

Currently sitting on a Northern train at Rainhill, been sat here 27 minutes and not one announcement as to why we haven't moved ☹️

 

[Trothy]

Currently sitting on a Northern train at Rainhill, been sat here 27 minutes and not one announcement as to why we haven't moved ☹️

Manchester ROC evacuated due to a fire alarm.

 

[Granpuff]

Finally moving,still no announcement

 

[Lampshade]

Absolute shambles across the NW tonight.

 

[TUC]

Currently sitting on a Northern train at Rainhill, been sat here 27 minutes and not one announcement as to why we haven't moved ☹️

Hard to see why staff could not at least say 'apologies for the delay. We'll let you know more when we have details of the situation'. That's the basics when it comes to customer service.

 

[rg177]

Northern have absolutely no service on some routes this weekend due to engineering works and no replacement buses. Hopefully nobody turns up at Chathill...

Can also see they've got the month wrong on their site.

Timetables are changing - 11 December

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

We have been unable to resource replacement buses for the engineering works taking place this weekend, 24-25 October, and therefore have taken the difficult decision to ask people DO NOT TRAVEL as not alternative transport will be available.

The routes affected are:

• Middlesbrough to Saltburn (Saturday and Sunday)
• Middlesbrough to Sunderland (Saturday and Sunday)
• Morpeth to Chathill (Saturday ONLY)
• Doncaster to Hull (Saturday and Sunday)

Unfortunately there will be no alternative transport provided. Refunds will be available for anyone with tickets.

 

[skyhigh]

Hard to see why staff could not at least say 'apologies for the delay. We'll let you know more when we have details of the situation'. That's the basics when it comes to customer service.

Of course it's possible the PA wasn't working in that coach and the guard didn't know.

 

[Winthorpe]

I was on a Northern train to Manchester which was partially cancelled at Preston.

The poor guard was the last to know as usual. The guard was making an announcement apologising for the delay on the approach to Preston (which doesn't matter as there is a 20 mins scheduled wait). This prompted me to double check on an app the arrival time at Manchester. The app as showing the train was cancelled. At the same time as I asked the guard (stood behind me ready to open the doors) if he knew anything about it, his mobile phone rang with the confirmation of the cancellation.

He was embarrassed, muttering to himself that this keeps happening, but it wasn't his fault of course.

It would be such a simple piece of software to automatically trigger a SMS message to the guard when a cancellation is made. At least they'd have a chance of knowing ASAP before the official confirmation call is made.

 

[johntea]

I have also had many similar experiences of my phone being able to provide more information than the guard on Northern services!

 

[Bovverboy]

Not sure what dedicated Metrolink line you're referring to. MediaCity has a designated spur but I'm not aware of any other designated bits. Man United's own website recommends using Old Trafford (next to the cricket ground) or the Imperial War Museum and Wharfside stops

A pair of electric trains with over 500 seats or a pair of trams with 110 seats. which is better suited to moving thousands of passengers?

In the last few years of heavy rail operation to Manchester United Football Ground, the rolling stock used was invariably single 323s, seating capacity 284. Over short distances noticeably more passengers could be comfortably carried, of course.

Trams are designed to cater for crush loads. A double M5000 tram has a total capacity of around 400.

But Metrolink is a much better option than disrupting Castlefield. At the same frequency trains are better - but 5tph Metrolink is far better than the 1tph that was seen on match days previously via heavy rail.

When heavy rail ran to the United ground it was three journeys to the ground before the match, three journeys away afterwards. Latterly the rolling stock was 1 x 323, but there was a time when double 323s were common.

For information, I understand that Northern ceased running trains to Manchester United Football Ground Halt due to security concerns following the Manchester Arena bombing.

At the time the trains to MUFG stopped running, the reason given was that because more trains were going to be scheduled along the Castlefield corridor, there was no longer the capacity available to run the football extras.