Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[AMD]

How long will it be before it becomes apparent that 2 car 195’s will be inadequate and why are 2 car units allowed to be ordered in this day and age? The 3 car sets will quickly go over capacity I suspect too, 4 car units should have been ordered initially.

On a simpistic basis the 195s bring more capacity than the pacers, that are coming out of the fleet - a 142 is 30m long, whereas a 2 car 195 is 47.280m & 3 car is 70.630m long.
It's going to be a bit more complicated in reality as the 195s are planned for the Northern Connect services, allowing a fleet cascade, so there should be more capacity all round as 150s (at 40m) replace 142s on services.

 

[AMD]

Does anybody know how training is progressing on the 195/331 fleets?

It is progressing.... it looks like the first one in passenger service could be as soon as early July.

 

[samuelmorris]

On a simpistic basis the 195s bring more capacity than the pacers, that are coming out of the fleet - a 142 is 30m long, whereas a 2 car 195 is 47.280m & 3 car is 70.630m long.
It's going to be a bit more complicated in reality as the 195s are planned for the Northern Connect services, allowing a fleet cascade, so there should be more capacity all round as 150s (at 40m) replace 142s on services.

Not explicitly - the extra capacity comes in the form of the electric units and cascaded DMUs, as there are 3770m of Pacers being withdrawn, and only 3558m of 195s being introduced, plus of course the fact that the 195s can't be split down to 30m size as per a single pacer.

 

[krus_aragon]

It may still prove to be the case that the 195s are not enough to meet future demand growth, though.

(I'm glad the TfW variant will have end-gangways.)

 

[AMD]

Some growth demand has already been written into the franchise agreement - with 36 additional vehicles (18 units) into service by 1 December 2022
From the franchise document -
"Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170 refurbished to a standard consistent with that required by paragraph 36.1 of Schedule 6.1 (List of Committed Obligations)"

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is progressing.... it looks like the first one in passenger service could be as soon as mid to late July.

They're supposed to be in service from the 1st. The new Manchester - Barrow timetable coming into effect from that date needs them.

 

[DJH1971]

195121 at Liverpool Lime Street this morning.

 

[scrapy]

Given the amount of units running around supporting various training activities, September seems quite late - @scrapy 's date of 1st July seems more realistic (or maybe I'm just being hopelessly optimistic - it's been a long wait!).

Still planned to be 1st July for 195s with up to 3 in use on Cumbria to Manchester Airport and 1 on Liverpool to Manchester Airport. Probably have to wait a little longer for 331s due to the complexity of the diagrams they'll work and amount of training required.

 

[DJH1971]

Still planned to be 1st July for 195s on 1st July with up to 3 in use on Cumbria to Manchester Airport and 1 on Liverpool to Manchester Airport. Probably have to wait a little longer for 331s due to the complexity of the diagrams they'll work and amount of training required.

Slightly off-topic I know, but will the 331's be operating in the North West or around Yorkshire only?

 

[scrapy]

Slightly off-topic I know, but will the 331's be operating in the North West or around Yorkshire only?

Both. Their first route expected to be Blackpool to Manchester Airport later in July.

 

[DJH1971]

Both. Their first route expected to be Blackpool to Manchester Airport later in July.

Are they likely to be on any workings to and from Liverpool eventually?

 

[Greybeard33]

Some growth demand has already been written into the franchise agreement - with 36 additional vehicles (18 units) into service by 1 December 2022
From the franchise document -
"Performance and quality equivalent to a two car Class 170 refurbished to a standard consistent with that required by paragraph 36.1 of Schedule 6.1 (List of Committed Obligations)"

But if we compare the number of diesel vehicles that will be available in 2020 with today, I understand that there only 12 more 150 vehicles still to be cascaded (2*3-car 150/0 + 3*2-car 150/2, from GWR). Adding those to the 25*2-car 195/0s, the 33*3-car 195/1s and the 8*4-car 769s, there are a maximum of 193 diesel vehicles yet to enter service with Northern. But there are 234 non PRM compliant vehicles that have to be withdrawn by the end of this year (79*2-car 142s, 13*2-car 144s, 10*3-car 144s and 20*1-car 153s).

Admittedly the new vehicles are longer on average, and there are a number of 15x units out of service for refurbishment at the moment. But there are additional services to be resourced from December, and there will be less flexibility in formations with the replacement units. So it is hard to avoid the conclusion that some diesel routes will see a reduction in capacity.

 

[samuelmorris]

But if we compare the number of diesel vehicles that will be available in 2020 with today, I understand that there only 12 more 150 vehicles still to be cascaded (2*3-car 150/0 + 3*2-car 150/2, from GWR). Adding those to the 25*2-car 195/0s, the 33*3-car 195/1s and the 8*4-car 769s, there are a maximum of 193 diesel vehicles yet to enter service with Northern. But there are 234 non PRM compliant vehicles that have to be withdrawn by the end of this year (79*2-car 142s, 13*2-car 144s, 10*3-car 144s and 20*1-car 153s).

Admittedly the new vehicles are longer on average, and there are a number of 15x units out of service for refurbishment at the moment. But there are additional services to be resourced from December, and there will be less flexibility in formations with the replacement units. So it is hard to avoid the conclusion that some diesel routes will see a reduction in capacity.

Are the 153s definitely going at the end of the year as well? (Never mind PRM deadlines that TOCs aren't going to meet). That puts the deficit even higher.

 

[AmateurRambler]

Both. Their first route expected to be Blackpool to Manchester Airport later in July.

(Off topic): 331s are due* to be introduced between Doncaster and Leeds from 1st July.

* ARN stated dates are often strongly rooted in fiction.

 

[Chris217]

This was on todays
Edge Hill to Lancaster run

15.10 through Huyton

 

[palmersears]

Another set arrived (well part of it) by road today, unsure of the number. They’re arriving at a rate of knots now.

 

[Chester1]

Are the 153s definitely going at the end of the year as well? (Never mind PRM deadlines that TOCs aren't going to meet). That puts the deficit even higher.

153s are officially going but I will believe it when I see it. As Greybeard's figures show Northern will be 41 vehicles short compared with today if the 153s go. If they stay then its its a gap of 21 vehicles. Either option would mean more capacity because of longer coach length. 1 year PRM derogations for 153s to be used only when attached to compliant units would be a useful contingency.

I am hoping that we actually see the 195s in service on 1st July. That gives 6 months to catch up.

 

[Greybeard33]

If all the 195s are in service by the end of this year, and the 15x PRM mod programme is complete, Northern will have all the DMU vehicles specified in the franchise agreement, even after withdrawing all the 142s, 144s and 153s. In that situation I doubt that Northern would seek to keep any of the 153s.

But with fewer, though longer, carriages, there will inevitably be losers as well as winners, in respect of the capacity on individual services.

 

[geoffk]

Given that surplus electric units will be easier to come by than diesels, reducing diesel operation under the wires will help, although some is unavoidable until more of the network is electrified. Five out of the six services (all operators) at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss line are diesel! Do we run more through services with diesels throughout or do we split them at the electrified boundary and ask passengers to change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that surplus electric units will be easier to come by than diesels, reducing diesel operation under the wires will help, although some is unavoidable until more of the network is electrified. Five out of the six services (all operators) at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss line are diesel! Do we run more through services with diesels throughout or do we split them at the electrified boundary and ask passengers to change?

What are theyEdit all? I think splitting TPE would not be sensible (and the 80x are meant to solve that anyway). But Northern services, yes, there is a bit of inappropriate joining across Manchester going on.

 

[geoffk]

What are theyEdit all? I think splitting TPE would not be sensible (and the 80x are meant to solve that anyway). But Northern services, yes, there is a bit of inappropriate joining across Manchester going on.

Yes I was referring to Northern services possibly being split.
Electric - Liverpool - MIA - Crewe
Diesel - both TPE services, TfW MIA - Llandudno, Northern Leeds - Chester and MIA - Barrow*/Windermere. Of these, one of the TPE services (to Newcastle) will be getting bi-modes.
* some of these currently terminate at Preston and use a 319 but the plan is to extend all/most to Barrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've said many times Barrow/Windermere are textbook bi-mode routes. Though I suppose they could run from Lancaster only.

The rest are probably difficult to deal with now. Northern shouldn't have ordered DMUs, they should have ordered bi-modes.

 

[Greybeard33]

As I've said many times Barrow/Windermere are textbook bi-mode routes. Though I suppose they could run from Lancaster only.

The rest are probably difficult to deal with now. Northern shouldn't have ordered DMUs, they should have ordered bi-modes.

CAF does offer a bi-mode variant of the Civity family in the continental loading gauge. But I doubt that all the traction equipment would fit below the floor of the 195/331 bodyshell.

The FLIRT solution of an above floor generator module reduces saloon capacity for a given train length. Since many Northern routes have platform length constraints, Arriva/DfT evidently considered it preferable to have a few 195s running under the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FLIRT solution of an above floor generator module reduces saloon capacity for a given train length. Since many Northern routes have platform length constraints, Arriva/DfT evidently considered it preferable to have a few 195s running under the wires.

My suspicion is that it was simply that DMUs were cheapest, and that Stadler was never on the agenda because of that.

 

[mrcaa]

Does anyone know if these will be used on the Ellesmere Port to Leeds service? I know the Chester to Leeds service is listed on the Northern Connect page of Norther's website but there's no mention of Ellesmere Port so I wouldn't be surprised if they ducked out of providing a 195 on that service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know if these will be used on the Ellesmere Port to Leeds service? I know the Chester to Leeds service is listed on the Northern Connect page of Norther's website but there's no mention of Ellesmere Port so I wouldn't be surprised if they ducked out of providing a 195 on that service.

Northern Connect doesn't mandate 195s, 158s and (I think) 170s will be used on some services.

 

[mrcaa]

Northern Connect doesn't mandate 195s, 158s and (I think) 170s will be used on some services.

That's a shame as the ones they've been using right now are horrible. Even the refurbished ones have crappy windows so there doesn't seem much draw to use the service if it doesn't get new trains.

 

[coxxy]

Not sure if mentioned anywhere but saw 2 low loaders with 195 cars on the back yesterday heading up the M6 near Stoke.

 

[Mathew S]

Northern Connect doesn't mandate 195s, 158s and (I think) 170s will be used on some services.

The version I'd heard (from a friendly Northern manager) was that all the Connect-branded services would be 195/331 with a few 158s brought up to the same standard operating the Carlisle - Newcastle route.

 

[Neptune]

The version I'd heard (from a friendly Northern manager) was that all the Connect-branded services would be 195/331 with a few 158s brought up to the same standard operating the Carlisle - Newcastle route.

Correct.