Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[LNW-GW Joint]

do you think they'll wire the line between lostock and wigan as well?
Apologies for going off topic.

Possibly.
Trouble is, when push comes to shove on electrification again, it might not be top of the list.
The original project was, sort of, "while you are at it..." on Manchester-Blackpool.
The next most likely project (I think) will be Victoria-Stalybridge, as part of the TP scheme.
But you're right, it's off topic!
In the meantime, 769s are supposed to be the solution.

 

[Fez14]

The 0709, 0809, 1009, and 1109 departures are all booked for 195s. (The 0809 a double.)

9:09?

 

[Bovverboy]

9:09?

There is no 0909 departure. What would have been the 0909 commences at Oxford Road at 0912, and it's booked for a Sprinter set anyway.
Even the 195 diagrams haven't always been covered by one in recent days, but you'd be unlucky if there were not at least one out, i.e. either on the 0709/1009 or 0809/1109.

 

[Bornin1980s]

You have no need to worry about trap and drag as the doors are fitted with an Anti Drag system which I have tested myself and is very good.
CAF don’t save money on testing as it is specified by Eversholt and Northern at the contract stage and the trains wouldn’t be accepted if that specified testing had not taken place.

Is the anti drag system one reason why the doors are software controlled, rather than using the simple analogue technology proven on the 1980something units?

 

[Bovverboy]

There is no 0909 departure. What would have been the 0909 commences at Oxford Road at 0912, and it's booked for a Sprinter set anyway.

There's been a report of a 195 on the 'Sprinter' diagram today - but that may have been because, today being Saturday, there should have been a 195 spare, since, on Saturdays, it isn't needed to double up peak journeys on one of the other diagrams.

 

[Mogster]

do you think they'll wire the line between lostock and wigan as well?
Apologies for going off topic.

Is there much point when you can’t wire under Wallgate Bridge?

 

[Mathew S]

Is there much point when you can’t wire under Wallgate Bridge?

Yes. Just run the Bolton services into North Western, or use bi-modes.
(No, I don't think it will ever happen either, but that was Arriva's plan when they bid for the franchise, as I understand it.)

 

[fowler9]

There's been a report of a 195 on the 'Sprinter' diagram today - but that may have been because, today being Saturday, there should have been a 195 spare, since, on Saturdays, it isn't needed to double up peak journeys on one of the other diagrams.

There was indeed, I caught it from South Parkway to Lime Street expecting a Sprinter to be on it.

 

[387star]

Travelled on one of these the other day. They're nice units. The seats are firm but comfortable. I especially like that the windows are just at the right height to rest my elbow on the bottom of the frame and perch my head on my hand and watch the view go by.

It's great for the north

 

[EE Andy b1]

There not a bad unit for the North, and i'm sure teething troubles will be sorted over the next few months.

I think Northern, if money can be found, should order a follow on for Class 196s with end gangway doors in 2 and 3 car sets. Would be a better setup for some of the slower services and move the 150/0s out.

 

[mjn]

I just spotted 195105 on an ECS move from Allerton to Huddersfield, which I believe is for driver training over there. This is the first time I've seen one east of Stalybridge. Will it be the first of the type to venture through Standedge?

195105 by Mark Nulty, on Flickr

 

[Fez14]

These new sets are great but there’s far too many tables, could get so many more seats in

The seats are good, definitely better than the thameslink 700, pelvis bruisers. The temperature is good, however the air con firing up could get a little irritating but can’t be heard over music in headphones. A massive massive step up on anything else they’ve got

 

[ainsworth74]

These new sets are great but there’s far too many tables, could get so many more seats in

There's no winning is there? If they'd put fewer tables in we'd doubtlessly be getting people who'd be complaining at the lack of tables but instead we're getting complaints that there are too many tables

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats are good, definitely better than the thameslink 700

That just goes to show that it is not the ironing board frame (or the Fainsa Sophia frame, or whatever else) that is the problem despite people saying it is - it's the cushion you fit to it. And the contoured version of the cushion used in these (and in ScotRail's Hitachi units) is in my experience quite good.

 

[themiller]

These new sets are great but there’s far too many tables, could get so many more seats in

The seats are good, definitely better than the thameslink 700, pelvis bruisers. The temperature is good, however the air con firing up could get a little irritating but can’t be heard over music in headphones. A massive massive step up on anything else they’ve got

On Saturday, I travelled from Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness on a 195. The trains are light years ahead of Northern's older offerings and, I would suggest are more than a match for TPE's 185s. My only comment is that, just after Carnforth, my backside went to sleep. The solution may be a slightly thicker seat base cushion whist retaining the seat-back cushion thickness. I realise that it'd cost and could not be implemented for a while but a journey of that length needs passengers to be comfortable.

 

[driver_m]

There's no winning is there? If they'd put fewer tables in we'd doubtlessly be getting people who'd be complaining at the lack of tables but instead we're getting complaints that there are too many tables

Exactly. I personally think they’ve got the setup spot on.


Inceidentally. 125 is in the process of being pieced up and awaiting one more carriage.

 

[WesternLancer]

These new sets are great but there’s far too many tables, could get so many more seats in

The seats are good, definitely better than the thameslink 700, pelvis bruisers. The temperature is good, however the air con firing up could get a little irritating but can’t be heard over music in headphones. A massive massive step up on anything else they’ve got

On the contrary - the tables make a pleasant change from the knee crushing format on so much uni-directional stock - it was really pleasant to be on board when I caught my first one on Saturday. I do agree with your other points.

Overall a very good ambience (though not I thought massively better than a good condition 170, but a step change from 156/158 levels of comfort and quality). Tho again very hard seats, as has been mentioned.

I can see these rapidly growing market share on their routes due to the quality step change to such an extent that a larger order will be required, and given the age of the 156/158s it seems that a much bigger order would have been justified with longer term rolling delivery?

Not being familiar with the route though, and given the overall DMU shortage, it did strike me that it was odd to run Barrow - Manchester airport with so much under the wires. Wouldn't it make more sense to split the service at Lancaster or Preston to free up DMUs for diesel only routes? Unpopular with airport passengers of course, where a through train is especially helpful - but 80% plus people on my train were not going to the airport, though that might change with different times of day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see these rapidly growing market share on their routes due to the quality step change to such an extent that a larger order will be required, and given the age of the 156/158s it seems that a much bigger order would have been justified with longer term rolling delivery?

Not being familiar with the route though, and given the overall DMU shortage, it did strike me that it was odd to run Barrow - Manchester airport with so much under the wires. Wouldn't it make more sense to split the service at Lancaster or Preston to free up DMUs for diesel only routes? Unpopular with airport passengers of course, where a through train is especially helpful - but 80% plus people on my train were not going to the airport, though that might change with different times of day.

That said, Windermere will hopefully be electrified soon, and so I can kind of see your point that it might make sense to truncate Barrow back to Lancaster bays (and change it to be a fully clockface hourly service) and run hourly through from Manchester Airport to Windermere using a dedicated fleet of 4-car EMUs with extra luggage space and half a coach of First Class. It is also my observation that trains from Barrow almost completely tip out at Lancaster, are very quiet between there and Preston, and then pick up a load of passengers at Preston for Manchester - so it is really two distinct flows.

 

[WesternLancer]

Recent postings on this thread about the provided bins makes me wonder if Northern would have approved of such bin sizes when they fully read the unit specifications.

Nonetheless, there was a media advert many years ago....."Take your litter home with you".

Yes, most obv problem was the invisibility of the bins, then when I noticed them - their uselessness. This flaw then did not help as the train had plenty of litter all about it, creating an unnecessarily messy environment that would not encourage new passengers joining the train to treat it with with respect. Add on Northern's obvious lack of travelling / day time cleaning / litter picking resources and you have a real formula for really messy trains that project entirely the wrong image.

I know Northern have range of wider problems, but when those problems are overlaid by a scruffy travelling experience the average passenger just feels that it re-enforces all the negative publicity they hear about the TOC most of the time.

Clearing liter and presenting a clean train ought to be a fairly easy thing to achieve. Even if leaving litter does seem to be one of the UK population's favourite pastimes...

 

[Chris217]

Ha,don't speak too soon about tables.
Otherwise we'll see them removed for more seats in cramped conditions facing
backwards like they did on the FGW HST's.

Personally I think the 195s are great as they are atm.
Certainly better than an awful 185.

 

[InOban]

I have read that it's quicker to clean rubbish off the tables than it is to empty bins...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have read that it's quicker to clean rubbish off the tables than it is to empty bins...

It is if there is a cleaner. TBH you probably are better off leaving rubbish on the seat/table if you're on a VT going into Euston where you know it will be cleaned - you're probably doing them a favour and making it easier to recycle too. But you know full well that if you get off a Northern at Wigan which is headed for Barrow it's not going to be cleaned, so take it with you or put it in the bin.

A bit of common sense is the best way to deal with this kind of thing.

 

[WesternLancer]

If there is such a second order, I hope CAF can offer a bi-mode. It might then make sense to order dedicated units for this most InterCity of Northern's routes, with additional luggage capacity and perhaps even a small First Class area.

That said, Windermere will hopefully be electrified soon, and so I can kind of see your point that it might make sense to truncate Barrow back to Lancaster bays (and change it to be a fully clockface hourly service) and run hourly through from Manchester Airport to Windermere using a dedicated fleet of 4-car EMUs with extra luggage space and half a coach of First Class. It is also my observation that trains from Barrow almost completely tip out at Lancaster, are very quiet between there and Preston, and then pick up a load of passengers at Preston for Manchester - so it is really two distinct flows.

Thanks - yes, ref loadings that was exactly what I saw happen at Lancaster and Preston.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have read that it's quicker to clean rubbish off the tables than it is to empty bins...

I suspect it is, but that ignores the less quantifiable costs that are indirect consequences - eg cleaning upholstery from shoes on seats, disrespect of the interior more generally etc etc.

'Litter breeds litter' I think they say. And if they don't have cleaners during the day passengers get off a flight at Manchester airport to a train generously littered with beer cans etc (as it was on Saturday afternoon) what image does that send about Northern Trains. All the wrong messages. And if the bins were big enough you probably wouldn't need to empty them much during the day anyway - could leave that till end of service back at depot.

 

[WesternLancer]

But you know full well that if you get off a Northern at Wigan which is headed for Barrow it's not going to be cleaned, so take it with you or put it in the bin.

A bit of common sense is the best way to deal with this kind of thing.

Yes, indeed, but at first (when I wanted to pick up the rubbish on the 195 table when I got on), I could not even see a bin to put it in, despite a walk down the carriage, so I thought maybe they don't have any - after all I'd not found one on the refurbished 150 I'd been on earlier in the day - and it was only after I noticed another passenger - who was off duty staff as it happened - put something in the bin, that I finally saw where it was!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, indeed, but at first (when I wanted to pick up the rubbish on the 195 table when I got on), I could not even see a bin to put it in, despite a walk down the carriage, so I thought maybe they don't have any - after all I'd not found one on the refurbished 150 I'd been on earlier in the day - and it was only after I noticed another passenger - who was off duty staff as it happened - put something in the bin, that I finally saw where it was!

This is an issue - while if there are no bins you should take it with you, people in practice don't (otherwise there would be no need for street bins). There could do with being a standard large vestibule bin in all trains with doors at thirds where there's usually plenty of room for it - and all of them should be designed so you can put a tea bag in them without dripping tea on the carpet!

 

[WesternLancer]

This is an issue - while if there are no bins you should take it with you, people in practice don't (otherwise there would be no need for street bins). There could do with being a standard large vestibule bin in all trains with doors at thirds where there's usually plenty of room for it - and all of them should be designed so you can put a tea bag in them without dripping tea on the carpet!

very much agree.

BUT

When I got off a train at Leeds (picked up 2 half full coffee cups left on a table by another passenger, as I walked out of the train) I wandered around the platform for some time trying to find a bin, never did - do they have any at Leeds? In the end I just left them on the counter of one of the retail units for them to sort out!

But I don't suppose people take the litter with them very often when they know / learn there is no where to dump it off the train either!

Beats me why people buy these pricey drinks and then leave half of them undrunk but that's getting well off topic. But I always think when they get spilled by another person later on, the clean up costs to the train interior are not cheaper than having a decent waste facility!

 

[HSTEd]

If CAF was capable of delivering the 196s with corridor connections, why were these ordered without them?

I can't help but worry that Northern might regret that in future if these units become the dominant diesel rolling stock on British rail (Sprinters are starting to fall apart and electrification is stalled).

.... CAF-isation anyone?

 

[Bantamzen]

very much agree.

BUT

When I got off a train at Leeds (picked up 2 half full coffee cups left on a table by another passenger, as I walked out of the train) I wandered around the platform for some time trying to find a bin, never did - do they have any at Leeds? In the end I just left them on the counter of one of the retail units for them to sort out!

But I don't suppose people take the litter with them very often when they know / learn there is no where to dump it off the train either!

Beats me why people buy these pricey drinks and then leave half of them undrunk but that's getting well off topic. But I always think when they get spilled by another person later on, the clean up costs to the train interior are not cheaper than having a decent waste facility!

There are no bins platform side at Leeds as far as I recall, with the possible exception of the at the retail units. That's a hangover from the terrorism threat, even though most stations away from Leeds have clear plastic bins available. Hey ho! However Northern do have cleaning staff at Leeds who will jump on terminating services to clean up litter as much as they can.

 

[WesternLancer]

There are no bins platform side at Leeds as far as I recall, with the possible exception of the at the retail units. That's a hangover from the terrorism threat, even though most stations away from Leeds have clear plastic bins available. Hey ho! However Northern do have cleaning staff at Leeds who will jump on terminating services to clean up litter as much as they can.

Thanks.