Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[superkev]

Strange beasts, Voith hydrodynamic gearboxes. Three speed versions have only two gears. First speed involves a loose torque converter driving low gear, second consists of draining the converter and filing a fluid coupling which drives the same gear but with less slip and third speed uses another fluid coupling driving high gear. No friction materials and little to wear then.
They also do a shunter version which has two speeds (and one gear) in each direction, so no reverser needed and you can use the other direction as a retarder.

Yes strange devices torque converters.
I suppose with all that slip and churning oil it's simplicity/reliability against efficiency.
Didn't I read that the SWT ZF fitted 159 is using 10% less fuel as well as being a bit quicker.
Missed opportunity i think for a some similar mid life 're engineering the Northern 158s rather than just redecorating them.
K

 

[Billy A]

I believe the ZF equipped units show the biggest savings at low speeds when all that slip and churning of oil in a Voith transmission is replaced by several mechanical speeds and a locking torque converter. At cruising speeds I don't think there's much in it as the fluid couplings are relatively efficient.

Interestingly some DMUs in Denmark got themselves re equipped with ZF AS Tronic automated manual gearboxes as used on larger trucks and coaches. Twelve gears (not all actually used in rail applications I presume) and an automatic clutch. How well they perform I don't know although ZF no longer offer the AS Tronic rail application which may be significant.

 

[Bornin1980s]

My concern is, are the Pacers actually being replaced? The trains that really needed replacing are the Pacers, so why have the new one is more like Turbostars, with each carriage almost as powerful as both cars of a 156. Publicity for Northern franchise seems to be about using the new 195s on brand-new 'Northern Connect' services, while supposedly keeping all the old services. Now, would a 195 be capable of operating the slowest, most remote, stopping services in the event of a traction shortage, which is likely to happen when the Pacers are forcibly withdrawn? Are there any restrictions on how frequently an air-conditioned train can stop?

And why is this country ordering so many electric trains, restricted to wired networks, with many existing ones less than 30 years old? Isn't what we really need more diesels? Diesels can operate anywhere on the network, but many of ours are over 30 years old, and some were never up to the job, even when new!

 

[TH172341]

My concern is, are the Pacers actually being replaced? The trains that really needed replacing are the Pacers, so why have the new one is more like Turbostars, with each carriage almost as powerful as both cars of a 156. Publicity for Northern franchise seems to be about using the new 195s on brand-new 'Northern Connect' services, while supposedly keeping all the old services. Now, would a 195 be capable of operating the slowest, most remote, stopping services in the event of a traction shortage, which is likely to happen when the Pacers are forcibly withdrawn? Are there any restrictions on how frequently an air-conditioned train can stop?

And why is this country ordering so many electric trains, restricted to wired networks, with many existing ones less than 30 years old? Isn't what we really need more diesels? Diesels can operate anywhere on the network, but many of ours are over 30 years old, and some were never up to the job, even when new!

I can certainly see some good valid points raised there - some of the Pacer routes right now will likely become 156s and 150s - and they're not much younger and arguably the 150s in a basic state are no real improvement! Interesting today to see the external condition of a 156, seeing some rust near the roof and really they are going to need a decent overhaul to keep them going in heavy service.

The Harrogate line and Leeds to Southport service (both lines at the moment see Pacers) will use the 16 Class 170s which will be a massive improvement - the ones being sent are the newer versions that are in very good condition.

There are no restrictions on air-conditioned stock in regards to frequency of stops - there is no effect. The 172s down here in the Midlands work excellently on stopping work and the CAF Civity will be very similar in that respect. So yes a 195 will be able to work more remote services in theory, but it will depend on driver training and route clearances. It will only become apparent when they enter service whether they venture elsewhere and stray from their 'normal' planned workings.

Basically the recent mass orders for electrics is due to the Greater Anglia franchise - which does need the new stock as a fair proportion of its rolling stock is as old as Northern's. Unfortunately it's becoming rather clear we will need new diesels with the slow rate of electrification; really Northern should have started replacing its Pacers in the 2010 period when new Turbostars were available for order. I would expect to see further orders in the future for units such as the Stadler Flirt Bi-Mode for certain operators, and Bombardier may well yet enter the Bi-Mode market.

 

[edwin_m]

If you consider the car as the competition, air conditioning is now standard on all but the most basic vehicles. People expect something better than a 150 equivalent, not least because any sort of conversation is impossible in a DMU at speed with the windows open and this has become more important with the advent of mobiles.

All the DMUs and most of the EMUs ordered since privatisation have had air conditioning, even the 172s which replaced a large fleet of 150s on the Birmingham Snow Hill lines. 172s and 170s seem quite able to keep up with 150 schedules even on stop-start duties where their higher top speed doesn't come into play. The main problem is actually if a 156 or 158 finds itself on a busy suburban working, when the narrow doors at the end of the vehicle make station dwell times much longer than any of the classes with wider double doors. From what I read of the 195 is it mechanically pretty similar to a 172.

 

[jopsuk]

Are there any restrictions on how frequently an air-conditioned train can stop?

No. Not at all. London Underground S-Stock are fully airconditioned and all 21/24 (S7/S8) doors open at every stop- less than a minute apart on some parts, and in tunnels that can be warmer than the surface.

And why is this country ordering so many electric trains, restricted to wired networks, with many existing ones less than 30 years old? Isn't what we really need more diesels? Diesels can operate anywhere on the network, but many of ours are over 30 years old, and some were never up to the job, even when new!

"this country" isn't ordering trains. Franchise operators are ordering trains. They're ordering what the believe will allow them to profitably deliver the services and service levels they have been contracted to achieve.

 

[edwin_m]

And why is this country ordering so many electric trains, restricted to wired networks, with many existing ones less than 30 years old? Isn't what we really need more diesels? Diesels can operate anywhere on the network, but many of ours are over 30 years old, and some were never up to the job, even when new!

As well as the points made about EMUs being what is needed to operate franchises, there is the inconsistency of government policy.

In around 2008 the government perceived that more DMUs would be needed but the leasing companies wouldn't order any because they didn't expect to get a full lifetime of rentals out of them. So the government decided to buy some DMUs itself.

A year or so later, once the government had spent money on procurement and the manufacturers on bidding, this decision was reversed. Electrification was now in favour and expected to remove the need for new DMUs for many years. Older ones displaced by electrification would be cascaded onto other non-electrified lines to meet growing demand there and allow the worst types (Pacers) to be withdrawn.

So the manufacturers and leasing companies saw even less need for DMUs. In the meantime tightening emissions and crashworthiness standards meant that repeat orders of existing DMU designs would be non-compliant and any DMU order would need a major re-design. So building new DMUs would be an even bigger risk than before.

Fast forward a few years with electrification programmes slipping and demand continuing to grow, with the Northern franchise required to order self-powered vehicles. If the DMU cascade policy had ever added up before it didn't any longer. Only CAF seems able to supply a straight DMU, possibly because all other suppliers are at capacity and don't want to bother with a more risky niche requirement.

There are also bi-mode designs from Hitachi for top-end services and Stadler for more mundane duties, plus the CAF push-pull solution which can be have an electric loco substituted. While probably more expensive than a straight DMU these are also more future-proof in that they can run on electric power as well. However we are still in limbo regarding how much more electrification will go ahead and when, so the demand for future DMU builds is still very uncertain.

 

[Grannyjoans]

What services are 195 and 331 going on in North West England ?

So far as I understand it is going to be:

Blackpool-Man Airport (ex T P E)
Lime Street - Blackpool (a return of an hourly service that used to run)
Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport via Wigan NW (New hourly service)
Man Picc-Stoke
Preston - Macclesfield (New Service)
Man Picc - Crewe/Alderley Edge/Wilmslow via Stockport and Airport
Lime Street - Manchester - Bradford ??? (new service)

 

[507021]

What services are 195 and 331 going on in North West England ?

So far as I understand it is going to be:

Blackpool-Man Airport (ex T P E)
Lime Street - Blackpool (a return of an hourly service that used to run)
Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport via Wigan NW (New hourly service)
Man Picc-Stoke
Preston - Macclesfield (New Service)
Man Picc - Crewe/Alderley Edge/Wilmslow via Stockport and Airport
Lime Street - Bradford (new service)

Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central will also be 195 operated.

 

[47802]

What services are 195 and 331 going on in North West England ?

So far as I understand it is going to be:

Blackpool-Man Airport (ex T P E)
Lime Street - Blackpool (a return of an hourly service that used to run)
Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport via Wigan NW (New hourly service)
Man Picc-Stoke
Preston - Macclesfield (New Service)
Man Picc - Crewe/Alderley Edge/Wilmslow via Stockport and Airport
Lime Street - Manchester - Bradford ??? (new service)

Lime Street - Blackpool isn't a Connect service may well be 319 worked.

While Blackpool - York is listed as a Connect service along with 2 other Calder Valley services to Manchester Airport and Chester and will presumably be 195's

 

[absolutelymilk]

Preston - Macclesfield (New Service)

I haven't seen any mention of a new Preston - Macclesfield service, where did you hear this?

 

[Roose]

Barrow/Windermere - Man Airport via Wigan NW (New hourly service)

While the route may be new, the Barrow - Airport service reinstates services that have been cut back in recent years due to shortage of decent DMU.

 

[pemma]

From what's been reported elsewhere the current thinking is Hazel Grove to Preston remains as it is and the second hourly Stockport to Bolton service will be an Alderley Edge to Wigan via Bolton service which will be operated by the bi-mode 319s. It has been suggested one of the Northern Connect services might extend beyond the Airport to Crewe.

Although there's a few marks over the Windermere workings as the plan was to use 331s but the OHEs might not be ready in time.

 

[pemma]

In around 2008 the government perceived that more DMUs would be needed but the leasing companies wouldn't order any because they didn't expect to get a full lifetime of rentals out of them. So the government decided to buy some DMUs itself.

A year or so later, once the government had spent money on procurement and the manufacturers on bidding, this decision was reversed. Electrification was now in favour and expected to remove the need for new DMUs for many years. Older ones displaced by electrification would be cascaded onto other non-electrified lines to meet growing demand there and allow the worst types (Pacers) to be withdrawn.

So the manufacturers and leasing companies saw even less need for DMUs. In the meantime tightening emissions and crashworthiness standards meant that repeat orders of existing DMU designs would be non-compliant and any DMU order would need a major re-design. So building new DMUs would be an even bigger risk than before.

What needs to be remembered is the proposed DMU order and the electrification alternative was to add 200+ additional vehicles to the network, mainly in the North but also some in the South West. It wasn't originally supposed to start seeing Pacers being withdrawn but when the coalition government came to power in 2010 they seemed to see it as the first stage of Pacer replacement. Eventually they realised new self-powered trains were required but the ROSCOs wanted any new DMUs to be versatile enough to cascade down to rural stopping services later in their lives.

 

[boby32]

Lime Street - Blackpool isn't a Connect service may well be 319 worked.

While Blackpool - York is listed as a Connect service along with 2 other Calder Valley services to Manchester Airport and Chester and will presumably be 195's

Here's the website of the Northern Connect Network.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect

 

[Bornin1980s]

As well as the points made about EMUs being what is needed to operate franchises, there is the inconsistency of government policy.

In around 2008 the government perceived that more DMUs would be needed but the leasing companies wouldn't order any because they didn't expect to get a full lifetime of rentals out of them. So the government decided to buy some DMUs itself.

A year or so later, once the government had spent money on procurement and the manufacturers on bidding, this decision was reversed. Electrification was now in favour and expected to remove the need for new DMUs for many years. Older ones displaced by electrification would be cascaded onto other non-electrified lines to meet growing demand there and allow the worst types (Pacers) to be withdrawn.

So the manufacturers and leasing companies saw even less need for DMUs. In the meantime tightening emissions and crashworthiness standards meant that repeat orders of existing DMU designs would be non-compliant and any DMU order would need a major re-design. So building new DMUs would be an even bigger risk than before.

Fast forward a few years with electrification programmes slipping and demand continuing to grow, with the Northern franchise required to order self-powered vehicles. If the DMU cascade policy had ever added up before it didn't any longer. Only CAF seems able to supply a straight DMU, possibly because all other suppliers are at capacity and don't want to bother with a more risky niche requirement.

There are also bi-mode designs from Hitachi for top-end services and Stadler for more mundane duties, plus the CAF push-pull solution which can be have an electric loco substituted. While probably more expensive than a straight DMU these are also more future-proof in that they can run on electric power as well. However we are still in limbo regarding how much more electrification will go ahead and when, so the demand for future DMU builds is still very uncertain.

Ah, the HLOS DMUP. Roger Ford of Modern Railways was no fan. I have found his E preview on it from the time.
https://ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2009.01.19.00.01.archive.html

His actual articles were even more critical. Basically, the government proposed a one size fits all DMU in two and three car form for Great Western, Northern rail, and Trans-Pennine Express. This meant that Trans-Pennine Express were offered more three car trains when what they needed was longer trains. Siemens had offered trailer cars for 185s (which Ford considered overpowered). These extra cars would have had to be built by Siemens, but when the offer of a new fleet was announced, it was to be a brand-new fleet limited to a length of three cars, and would be incompatible with 185s, since Siemens was not even on the list of bidders. Furthermore, the specifications for the new DMU's were technically impossible, demanding (I believe) lighter weight than a 172, but more power than a 185.

Fortunately, all these operators are now getting fleets far closer to their real requirements, though I'm still inclined to think that the 195 is a bit advanced considering that it's the Pacers that need replacing. I guess from the full train length given on Wikipedia that 195 driving cars would be slightly over 23 m long, like all recent DMUs, except for the 150s – and the Pacers. This raises a slight concern. Will the majority of Northern's non-electrified territory be able to hold 23 m carriages? And will there be enough 150s to cover the bits that can't?

I also think that the 195s might well be the last of the 'second generation' diesel hydraulic units. I think the future lies in electric transmission and bi-modes.

 

[edwin_m]

Fortunately, all these operators are now getting fleets far closer to their real requirements, though I'm still inclined to think that the 195 is a bit advanced considering that it's the Pacers that need replacing. I guess from the full train length given on Wikipedia that 195 driving cars would be slightly over 23 m long, like all recent DMUs, except for the 150s – and the Pacers. This raises a slight concern. Will the majority of Northern's non-electrified territory be able to hold 23 m carriages? And will there be enough 150s to cover the bits that can't?

I also think that the 195s might well be the last of the 'second generation' diesel hydraulic units. I think the future lies in electric transmission and bi-modes.

What Northern needs is a high-spec unit for the Connect services. They have only a handful of 158s that could meet that spec today without a total rebuild, and there aren't any going spare with other operators. So it makes sense to buy new for these duties and cascade the existing units onto commuter flows. They will be getting more 150s too, displaced from GWR. There's also a good argument to say that a 100mph DMU needs air conditioning, as a 75mph one is noisy and draughty enough with the windows open.

The restrictions on C3 stock are almost all south of London, the only exception I can think of is some of the Cardiff Valleys. I assume the 195 and 331s will be to similar dimensions, basically those of the Mk3 coach (unlike the 165s and 166s which are a bit wider and therefore more restricted). Until you get into serious infrastructure modifications, lengthening the coach reduces cost and weight because there are relatively fewer heavy and expensive things like bogies.

 

[craigybagel]

Fortunately, all these operators are now getting fleets far closer to their real requirements, though I'm still inclined to think that the 195 is a bit advanced considering that it's the Pacers that need replacing. I guess from the full train length given on Wikipedia that 195 driving cars would be slightly over 23 m long, like all recent DMUs, except for the 150s – and the Pacers. This raises a slight concern. Will the majority of Northern's non-electrified territory be able to hold 23 m carriages? And will there be enough 150s to cover the bits that can't ?

Is there anywhere at the moment where the Northern random unit generator only ever supplies 142s or 150s and never 156s or 158s? I'm struggling to think of anywhere.

 

[Bornin1980s]

^It depends on your location. In my location, it's always either 142s or 156s. The 156 carriages are 23 m long, but I believe 156s have substituted on all the pacer diagrams at least once. After the fleet upgrades, I suspect nearly all of the services would be in the hands of 156s, but we will be getting some 158s for the Connect services (yes, mine is the location that misses out on the 195s).

I've also noticed that, while all modern DMUs are 23 m long, many modern EMU carriages – including the 319 – are shorter. Maybe the 319 Flex is the post pacer solution for gauge restricted local lines.

Edit; Now I see what you getting at. I would be interested to hear of any Northern service from which C3 stock is barred, but maybe the entire northern network can take such stock, and the 156s would reach their 50th anniversary serving former pacer locations. However, this might mean we can't have many 150s. I believe we borrowed some from the gauge restricted Welsh valleys, giving them 142s. With the 142 banned from 2020, they would want their 150s back. Maybe Northern Connect would have to be put on hold while 195's takeover 150 diagrams.

 

[pemma]

Is there anywhere at the moment where the Northern random unit generator only ever supplies 142s or 150s and never 156s or 158s? I'm struggling to think of anywhere.

Probably not. There's obviously North East lines that get 142s and 156s but never 150s, as mentioned. Then there's Pacer free lines that get Sprinters only and lines which 153s are banned from but it normally seems to be the case that a 156 can be used to fill in for a 142 or a 150 on pretty much any North West route.

 

[pemma]

I've also noticed that, while all modern DMUs are 23 m long, many modern EMU carriages – including the 319 – are shorter. Maybe the 319 Flex is the post pacer solution for gauge restricted local lines.

23m carriage trains are usually narrower - with the exception of the 165s, 166s, 323s, 332s and 333s, which means they are unlikely to have any issues unless the platforms are too short. The short fat 142s have more clearance issues than the long slim 156s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also think that the 195s might well be the last of the 'second generation' diesel hydraulic units. I think the future lies in electric transmission and bi-modes.

As Northern has a good many routes for which bi-mode would be perfect I think the day of buying traditional diesel multiple units will be rued.

 

[D6975]

Probably not. There's obviously North East lines that get 142s and 156s but never 150s, as mentioned. Then there's Pacer free lines that get Sprinters only and lines which 153s are banned from but it normally seems to be the case that a 156 can be used to fill in for a 142 or a 150 on pretty much any North West route.

I can think of one or two. I've never seen anything other than a 142 on the Sheffield-Cleethorpes. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on the Lincoln-Sheffield-Donny route either, Not to say other things don't occasionally appear, but I've never seen it. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on Bishop Auckland services either.

 

[craigybagel]

I can think of one or two. I've never seen anything other than a 142 on the Sheffield-Cleethorpes. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on the Lincoln-Sheffield-Donny route either, Not to say other things don't occasionally appear, but I've never seen it. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on Bishop Auckland services either.

Sheffield-Cleethorpes certainly used to be booked for 153s (it's been a few years since I've been out that way mind). The fact that the route through Gainsborough saw diverted 185s during the landslide on the normal route from Doncaster suggests the route is fine for 23m stock.
Lincoln-Sheffield is due to receive the new stock, so obviously no issue there, and as for Bishops Auckland....

https://youtu.be/3G_V2Lg0tHg

 

[D6975]

Sheffield-Cleethorpes certainly used to be booked for 153s (it's been a few years since I've been out that way mind). The fact that the route through Gainsborough saw diverted 185s during the landslide on the normal route from Doncaster suggests the route is fine for 23m stock.
Lincoln-Sheffield is due to receive the new stock, so obviously no issue there, and as for Bishops Auckland....

https://youtu.be/3G_V2Lg0tHg

Makes my point nicely.
So rare that it was considered worthy of filming.

 

[pemma]

I can think of one or two. I've never seen anything other than a 142 on the Sheffield-Cleethorpes. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on the Lincoln-Sheffield-Donny route either, Not to say other things don't occasionally appear, but I've never seen it. I've never seen anything other than a pacer on Bishop Auckland services either.

Usually if a unit doesn't appear on a route it's because the crews who sign the route don't also sign the unit type or because the type of unit is not based in the area.

The route clearance issues usually seem to involve Pacers and 153s so once they are withdrawn I imagine it'll make diagramming easier.

 

[craigybagel]

Makes my point nicely.
So rare that it was considered worthy of filming.

Rare? Yes. But it also proves that they are cleared, which is the point being discussed. So far nobody has been able to suggest a route at Northern where all 23m stock are banned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there anywhere at the moment where the Northern random unit generator only ever supplies 142s or 150s and never 156s or 158s? I'm struggling to think of anywhere.

Never seen a 158 on Ormskirk-Preston. A 156 is rare but not totally unknown.

 

[craigybagel]

Never seen a 158 on Ormskirk-Preston. A 156 is rare but not totally unknown.

Rare is enough to mean it's allowed. Is there anywhere at Northern that's never seen 23m stock because it's not allowed, and thus will be an issue that needs resolving when 195s kill off the pacers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are places where 158s are banned but 156s not. I don't know if that's true of Ormskirk, but it is of the Conwy Valley (yes, I know it's ATW now, it used to be FNW! ) and I believe the Cumbrian Coast.

None I can think of, though, where all 23m stock is banned - limiting to 20m is a Sarfeast thing, isn't it?