Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[AMD]

The original plan was -
Stoke/Macc - Blackpool (3 & 4 car)
Blackpool - Manchester Airport (3 & 4 car)
Hadfield - Piccadilly (3 & 4 car)
Leeds triangle (3 car)
Leeds - Doncaster (3 car)
Liverpool - Blackpool (4 car)
Windermere - Manchester Airport (3 car)

But as we know Windermere branch isn't being wired and platform issues in the Leeds area has resulted in a bit of change of plan.....

 

[js1000]

The original plan was -
Stoke/Macc - Blackpool (3 & 4 car)
Blackpool - Manchester Airport (3 & 4 car)
Hadfield - Piccadilly (3 & 4 car)
Leeds triangle (3 car)
Leeds - Doncaster (3 car)
Liverpool - Blackpool (4 car)
Windermere - Manchester Airport (3 car)

But as we know Windermere branch isn't being wired and platform issues in the Leeds area has resulted in a bit of change of plan.....

Aside from the Blackpool to Manchester Airport service, I would have thought the second most important route to utilise the 331s would be the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport stoppers. The 319s and 323s are so ill-suited to a regional airport service. No luggage space around the doors or racks. (most of the 323s anyway)

 

[Greybeard33]

But as we know Windermere branch isn't being wired and platform issues in the Leeds area has resulted in a bit of change of plan.....

Another change of plan is that Stoke/Macc - Blackpool (331s) and Hazel Grove - Piccadilly (319s) have been reconfigured as Stoke - Piccadilly (331s) and Hazel Grove - Blackpool (331s too?)

 

[childwallblues]

I dont see why they couldn't turn up on that route but I think the majority of the services will remain as 319s.

They will require to return to their home depot (Allerton) for their exams anyway.

 

[jonesy3001]

Thought the 323s were staying with the batch from WMT joining since the 319s cannot keep to 323 timings on certain lines and have northern tested a 331 on the glossop/hadfield line?

 

[driver_m]

Very clean looking 104 on the depot this morning. Don’t think it’s been mentioned before.

 

[superkev]

Very clean looking 104 on the depot this morning. Don’t think it’s been mentioned before.

Presumably you mean allerton and 331 104. Perhaps it's getting ready to be dragged to Neville hill.
I believe 331 108 has or is about to enter passenger service at Neville hill.
Anyone know where and who is maintaining the 331s?
K

 

[driver_m]

Presumably you mean allerton and 331 104. Perhaps it's getting ready to be dragged to Neville hill.
I believe 331 108 has or is about to enter passenger service at Neville hill.
Anyone know where and who is maintaining the 331s?
K

Yeah to both. I also post on the 195 thread anything new on there so that’s why I don’t put the Unit types on. To your other question. I’ve asked this and it seems that Allerton are going to be the main depot from what’s been posted by others. Presumably Neville Hill will do the day to day stuff required for the stuff on the wrong side of the Pennines but then come back over here for anything major

 

[_toommm_]

Thought the 323s were staying with the batch from WMT joining since the 319s cannot keep to 323 timings on certain lines and have northern tested a 331 on the glossop/hadfield line?

Theres been no test yet, although the shortest of the platforms, namely Flowery Field, have been extended. It will still be tight, but you can just about squeeze a 4 car on there now.

 

[superkev]

Yeah to both. I also post on the 195 thread anything new on there so that’s why I don’t put the Unit types on. To your other question. I’ve asked this and it seems that Allerton are going to be the main depot from what’s been posted by others. Presumably Neville Hill will do the day to day stuff required for the stuff on the wrong side of the Pennines but then come back over here for anything major

Thanks, northern seem to be concentrating other than day stuff on the west side.
I wonder if they will continue to drag 331s between Allerton and Neville hill with pairs of 37 or 47s with barrier wagons which must be expensive. Perhaps a trip via Carstairs or N London my be cheaper if they get route cleared.
K

 

[driver_m]

Thanks, northern seem to be concentrating other than day stuff on the west side.
I wonder if they will continue to drag 331s between Allerton and Neville hill with pairs of 37 or 47s with barrier wagons which must be expensive. Perhaps a trip via Carstairs or N London my be cheaper if they get route cleared.
K

I very much doubt they’d ever do that as the route training would cost a fortune in its own right. Drags for the foreseeable, unless they could ever do a workaround with a 195 dragging a 331 dead in mechanical coupling only. If a 221 and 390 can do it, then it should be doable with a 195/331 combo , but that’s one for the future, now the priority I’d imagine, would be to get them in service, and worry about haulage later.

 

[deltic08]

Blackpool N - Airport, Hadfield and Glossop and the Leeds triangle have all been mentioned in the past.

331s on the Hadfield/Glossops would be a waste of 100mph units where 323s are perfectly capable on a low speed line.
What we need is more electrification of low speed lines with cheaper/simpler overheads such as New Mills/Rose Grove/Warrington Central/Barrow/Windermere/Harrogate/Selby/Wakefield Kirkgate to mop up a surplus of perfectly good electric units and stop messing about with hydrogen and battery bimodes.

 

[Mollman]

The original plan was -
Stoke/Macc - Blackpool (3 & 4 car)
Blackpool - Manchester Airport (3 & 4 car)
Hadfield - Piccadilly (3 & 4 car)
Leeds triangle (3 car)
Leeds - Doncaster (3 car)
Liverpool - Blackpool (4 car)
Windermere - Manchester Airport (3 car)

But as we know Windermere branch isn't being wired and platform issues in the Leeds area has resulted in a bit of change of plan.....

Presume some 3 car will really be 6? Don't fancy going back to only 3 car units on Blackpool - Man Airport.

 

[superkev]

I very much doubt they’d ever do that as the route training would cost a fortune in its own right. Drags for the foreseeable, unless they could ever do a workaround with a 195 dragging a 331 dead in mechanical coupling only. If a 221 and 390 can do it, then it should be doable with a 195/331 combo , but that’s one for the future, now the priority I’d imagine, would be to get them in service, and worry about haulage later.

They do move other stock to and from distant locations like Crewe, Wolverton Kimarnock etc perhaps using FL drivers.
K

 

[Greybeard33]

331s on the Hadfield/Glossops would be a waste of 100mph units where 323s are perfectly capable on a low speed line.

Equally the 90mph capability of 323s is wasted crawling along the 60mph line to Hadfield. What this line really needs, with its closely spaced stations and large commuter flows, are fast accelerating, 60mph light rail units, with lots of standing capacity. As per the TfGM proposal for tram-train conversion.

 

[deltic08]

Equally the 90mph capability of 323s is wasted crawling along the 60mph line to Hadfield. What this line really needs, with its closely spaced stations and large commuter flows, are fast accelerating, 60mph light rail units, with lots of standing capacity. As per the TfGM proposal for tram-train conversion.

Absolutely not tram-trains. I can't see tram-trains being allowed in Piccadilly. Just more Pacers but electric ones. 323s are ideal for lines that are less than 100mph as their acceleration to 60mph is brilliant. It will also allow for upgrading from 60mph to say 70 or 75mph in future.
What would you prefer? Electric units on 60mph lines or scrap the 323s with continuation of 150s and 156s. You will never get 158,185,170 or 195s on secondary lines where stations are close together.
What should be done is introduce 323s to the Aire Valley where 90mph is the max line speed and move 333s to 100mph lines such as Leeds-Doncaster and eventually Leeds-York. Send the 331s back over the Pennines.

 

[IanXC]

I very much doubt they’d ever do that as the route training would cost a fortune in its own right. Drags for the foreseeable, unless they could ever do a workaround with a 195 dragging a 331 dead in mechanical coupling only. If a 221 and 390 can do it, then it should be doable with a 195/331 combo , but that’s one for the future, now the priority I’d imagine, would be to get them in service, and worry about haulage later.

I'm not sure what kind of "major" works people have in mind in this idea that 331/1s will be dragged back to Allerton.

B Exams come up way too frequently to justify such an arrangement, Neville Hill has a wheel lathe anyway.. that just leaves C Exams, which the 321/322 fleet go to Ilford for currently on contractor operated runs anyway...

 

[Greybeard33]

Absolutely not tram-trains. I can't see tram-trains being allowed in Piccadilly. Just more Pacers but electric ones. 323s are ideal for lines that are less than 100mph as their acceleration to 60mph is brilliant.

Getting OT, but the TfGM plan is for tram-trains to leave the main line at Ashburys and run on street to the Piccadilly Metrolink platforms. Thereby freeing up platform capacity in the main shed for longer distance services.

Anyway that is longer term. AFAIK it is yet to be confirmed that Northern will retain 323s, and the original Arriva plan was for 331s to replace them on the Glossop/Hadfield line. Reportedly 331s have even better acceleration to 60mph than the 323, so why do you not then consider them even more ideal for this line?

The 323s get overcrowded in the peaks, so I suspect the 4-car 331/1s will be visiting Hadfield when we eventually get them back on the West side.

 

[samuelmorris]

Absolutely not tram-trains. I can't see tram-trains being allowed in Piccadilly. Just more Pacers but electric ones. 323s are ideal for lines that are less than 100mph as their acceleration to 60mph is brilliant. It will also allow for upgrading from 60mph to say 70 or 75mph in future.
What would you prefer? Electric units on 60mph lines or scrap the 323s with continuation of 150s and 156s. You will never get 158,185,170 or 195s on secondary lines where stations are close together.
What should be done is introduce 323s to the Aire Valley where 90mph is the max line speed and move 333s to 100mph lines such as Leeds-Doncaster and eventually Leeds-York. Send the 331s back over the Pennines.

The 323s really aren't that old and they also have great acceleration, so as long as there is no Northern-Connectery with regard to their interior specification, they should definitely be part of any plans for further electrification, if they ever happen. The problem is, that's quite a big if at this stage. If 323s being retained would mean 331s sitting around unused, then there is admittedly no point whatsoever.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 323s really aren't that old and they also have great acceleration, so as long as there is no Northern-Connectery with regard to their interior specification, they should definitely be part of any plans for further electrification, if they ever happen. The problem is, that's quite a big if at this stage. If 323s being retained would mean 331s sitting around unused, then there is admittedly no point whatsoever.

Completely agreed. 323s just need air-con retrofitted and you have a winner with them and 331s, getting rid of the 319s by the mid-2020s and forgetting 769 Flexi thingies completely.

 

[deltic08]

The 323s really aren't that old and they also have great acceleration, so as long as there is no Northern-Connectery with regard to their interior specification, they should definitely be part of any plans for further electrification, if they ever happen. The problem is, that's quite a big if at this stage. If 323s being retained would mean 331s sitting around unused, then there is admittedly no point whatsoever.

Then pressure is needed on DfT/SOS (whoever that will be next month) to electrify more lines to mop up these surplus good EMUs as was the plan when Adonis was involved. The units are effectively there free if electrification is paid for.
Harrogate Loop has already been costed at £99m for 61 stm with a BCR of 3.61. Both Leeds and York are already wired so electrification is simple plain line junction to junction unlike the GWML. 331s would be lovely here as they are already in Leeds but the line is 60mph max. 323s would be ideal on this line if reconfigured to 2+2 seating and refurbished to 170 standard. Is air-conditioning really necessary?
There is an online petition currently to electrify the Loop if anyone is interested in signing.

 

[samuelmorris]

Then pressure is needed on DfT/SOS (whoever that will be next month) to electrify more lines to mop up these surplus good EMUs as was the plan when Adonis was involved. The units are effectively there free if electrification is paid for.
Harrogate Loop has already been costed at £99m for 61 stm with a BCR of 3.61. Both Leeds and York are already wired so electrification is simple plain line junction to junction unlike the GWML. 331s would be lovely here as they are already in Leeds but the line is 60mph max. 323s would be ideal on this line if reconfigured to 2+2 seating and refurbished to 170 standard. Is air-conditioning really necessary?
There is an online petition currently to electrify the Loop if anyone is interested in signing.

There must be a reason why that line got 170s over the others serving Leeds - I can't see them dropping down to 323s after that.

 

[superkev]

Then pressure is needed on DfT/SOS (whoever that will be next month) to electrify more lines to mop up these surplus good EMUs as was the plan when Adonis was involved. The units are effectively there free if electrification is paid for.
Harrogate Loop has already been costed at £99m for 61 stm with a BCR of 3.61. Both Leeds and York are already wired so electrification is simple plain line junction to junction unlike the GWML. 331s would be lovely here as they are already in Leeds but the line is 60mph max. 323s would be ideal on this line if reconfigured to 2+2 seating and refurbished to 170 standard. Is air-conditioning really necessary?
There is an online petition currently to electrify the Loop if anyone is interested in signing.

Wheres the petition?
Personally I cant see any more electrification particularly in the North while Mr (bi mode) Grayling is hanging on as transport sec.
K

 

[superkev]

I'm not sure what kind of "major" works people have in mind in this idea that 331/1s will be dragged back to Allerton.

B Exams come up way too frequently to justify such an arrangement, Neville Hill has a wheel lathe anyway.. that just leaves C Exams, which the 321/322 fleet go to Ilford for currently on contractor operated runs anyway...

How often do trains need B exams whatever they are.
Thanks
K

 

[driver_m]

I'm not sure what kind of "major" works people have in mind in this idea that 331/1s will be dragged back to Allerton.

B Exams come up way too frequently to justify such an arrangement, Neville Hill has a wheel lathe anyway.. that just leaves C Exams, which the 321/322 fleet go to Ilford for currently on contractor operated runs anyway...

I’m just repeating what I’ve read on these forums, not saying that it’s gospel that they’re basing them at Allerton. Other stuff regularly gets sent around the country, eg. 90’s from Greater Anglia to Crewe, if Northern ordered these on the reasonable assumption that the Trans Pennines Line was going to be wired at some point, (pre-Grayling era i guess) then a short period of disruptive working was probably the order of the day with a longer view to being able to run 331s over the hills without issue.

 

[deltic08]

There must be a reason why that line got 170s over the others serving Leeds - I can't see them dropping down to 323s after that.

Harrogate MP is Rail Minister, Harrogate is supposedly a Conference Town with just two through trains and lobbies hard for better trains and now for electrification. If that happens and we don't get 331s on the Loop then refurbished 323s would be good.
170s won't last as they are not suitable for the route being too highly geared on a 60mph linespeed. Gearboxes are being wrecked.

Wheres the petition?
Personally I cant see any more electrification particularly in the North while Mr (bi mode) Grayling is hanging on as transport sec.
K

Grayling is dead meat and will not survive the first cabinet reshuffle.

 

[samuelmorris]

Surely that isn't the only example of using 170s on stopping services is it? Has that been an issue elsewhere?

 

[IanXC]

How often do trains need B exams whatever they are.
Thanks
K

I’m just repeating what I’ve read on these forums, not saying that it’s gospel that they’re basing them at Allerton. Other stuff regularly gets sent around the country, eg. 90’s from Greater Anglia to Crewe, if Northern ordered these on the reasonable assumption that the Trans Pennines Line was going to be wired at some point, (pre-Grayling era i guess) then a short period of disruptive working was probably the order of the day with a longer view to being able to run 331s over the hills without issue.

Apologies, I wasn't really meaning to point that specifically at anyone!

I think it'd be fair to expect newer trains to have longer periods, but this thread gives some idea:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/a-b-c-exams.174951/

As far Clas I understand it C Exams are the ones you see units being moved up and down the country for, less than that seems to always be done by the home depot.

 

[modernrail]

Thanks, northern seem to be concentrating other than day stuff on the west side.
I wonder if they will continue to drag 331s between Allerton and Neville hill with pairs of 37 or 47s with barrier wagons which must be expensive. Perhaps a trip via Carstairs or N London my be cheaper if they get route cleared.
K

I love this post. It demonstrates beautifully how woefully neglected East West routes are in this country. Not a single electrified English route north of London. What a nonsense.

 

[deltic08]

Surely that isn't the only example of using 170s on stopping services is it? Has that been an issue elsewhere?

I haven't heard of problems elsewhere. Harrogate-Leeds is quite hilly with three hill starts needed. That is why 331s would be good.