Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

[507 001]

Far too many short platforms between Liverpool and Crewe to make 6 car operation practical even with DOO. Most can only accommodate 4 cars as far as I know. Then there is the question of demand: I'm not sure 6 cars are even needed on this route.

6 cars would very much be welcomed between Liverpool and Manchester in the peaks, particularly the 0720 off Lime street and the 1622 and 1723 off Piccadilly to Liverpool.

 

[Nymanic]

If 6-car services were offered with regularity, I reckon those seats would get filled before long.

But you won't see much ridership growth if short forms are too common. I don't know if 195 workings on the CLC have settled, but it was pretty bad last year when a 6-car working one day could become a 2-car the next. Have the 2x331 diagrams to Blackpool been particularly consistent?

Nevertheless, I don't think 2x331 would presently work on the Chat Moss even with SDO. It's unfortunate Huyton and Roby (both newly rebuilt) can only handle 4 cars, and there's no talk of extending those platforms. Given the tight platform spacing where the lifts and staircases are situated, I don't know if extensions are possible at all...

Could platform space at Lime St also be an issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nevertheless, I don't think 2x331 would presently work on the Chat Moss even with SDO. It's unfortunate Huyton and Roby (both newly rebuilt) can only handle 4 cars, and there's no talk of extending those platforms.

Given how recent those rebuilds are that's as shocking as the short platforms at South Parkway. Surely every platform in the North that is getting extensions should be to 6x24m as a minimum, ideally 8 to allow double 4-car units?

 

[grangergranger]

Can Leeds - Doncaster handle 2 X 3 car 331s?.
Even that route seems to be very full at peak times but very empty during off peak hours.

 

[Tracked]

Can Leeds - Doncaster handle 2 X 3 car 331s?.
Even that route seems to be very full at peak times but very empty during off peak hours.

Bentley definitely can't, 4 x 331 carriages just fit

 

[Bow Fell]

If 6-car services were offered with regularity, I reckon those seats would get filled before long.

But you won't see much ridership growth if short forms are too common. I don't know if 195 workings on the CLC have settled, but it was pretty bad last year when a 6-car working one day could become a 2-car the next. Have the 2x331 diagrams to Blackpool been particularly consistent?

Nevertheless, I don't think 2x331 would presently work on the Chat Moss even with SDO. It's unfortunate Huyton and Roby (both newly rebuilt) can only handle 4 cars, and there's no talk of extending those platforms. Given the tight platform spacing where the lifts and staircases are situated, I don't know if extensions are possible at all...

Could platform space at Lime St also be an issue?

There’s been 2 x 331’s (6 car formations) stopping all stations Liverpool-Wigan with no issues for a few weeks now.

 

[Adam0984]

Can Leeds - Doncaster handle 2 X 3 car 331s?.
Even that route seems to be very full at peak times but very empty during off peak hours.

All platforms except Leeds, Wakefield and Doncaster are built to 4 car length. The only place that would be a problem with the ASDO would be at Bentley Doncaster bound because of the crossing. South Elmsall the train already automatically locks out the rear set of doors because the platform is only just long enough but if the driver stops slightly short but within the ASDO tolerance area it wouldnt be platformed

 

[scrapy]

All platforms except Leeds, Wakefield and Doncaster are built to 4 car length. The only place that would be a problem with the ASDO would be at Bentley Doncaster bound because of the crossing. South Elmsall the train already automatically locks out the rear set of doors because the platform is only just long enough but if the driver stops slightly short but within the ASDO tolerance area it wouldnt be platformed

Bentley, Doncaster bound, could be solved by having stop boards beyond the platform so the rear of the train is clear of the crossing with the front of the train off the platform. ASDO could be programmed to release only rear carriages which are platformed.

 

[Adam0984]

Bentley, Doncaster bound, could be solved by having stop boards beyond the platform so the rear of the train is clear of the crossing with the front of the train off the platform. ASDO could be programmed to release only rear carriages which are platformed.

Oh yeah definitely, see what happens when they swap the 3 and 4 cars back

 

[Halish Railway]

Let us not forget, that if a lot of Shipley triangle workings become 2x331/0 operated (as was originally planned), the Leeds to Doncaster runs would have been operated by displaced 333s.

Correct me if I’m wrong, 16 331/0s were planned to be based at Neville Hill with no 331/1s. This could still happen if someone bothered to extend the platforms on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines, obviously Platforms 1 & 2 at Shipley would require ASDO. The 331/1s would then be transferred back over to Allerton to replace the horrid 319s.

 

[grangergranger]

Let us not forget, that if a lot of Shipley triangle workings become 2x331/0 operated (as was originally planned), the Leeds to Doncaster runs would have been operated by displaced 333s.

Correct me if I’m wrong, 16 331/0s were planned to be based at Neville Hill with no 331/1s. This could still happen if someone bothered to extend the platforms on the Airedale/Wharfedale lines, obviously Platforms 1 & 2 at Shipley would require ASDO. The 331/1s would then be transferred back over to Allerton to replace the horrid 319s.

That is still a possibility, with platform 0 at Leeds going to be completed from Dec 2020 - May 2021
But i do not know what the 331/1s would replace. 3 car 323s?
That would lead to a surplus of 323s
There should be more battery 331s really. (going of topic abit)

 

[darloscott]

That is still a possibility, with platform 0 at Leeds going to be completed from Dec 2020 - May 2021
But i do not know what the 331/1s would replace. 3 car 323s?
That would lead to a surplus of 323s
There should be more battery 331s really. (going of topic abit)

They wouldn't, they'd just be a straight swap of 3 and 4 car 331s between Yorkshire & NW fleets. 331s would then work on Aire/Wharfe services, with 333s presumably picking up the diagrams that 331s work now (ex 321s) and the 4 Doncaster diagrams. There'd presumably have to be a shuffle of 331s and 323s in the NW too, most likely with the 4 car 331s ending up on South Manchester routes and 323s thereby working 6 car to Blackpool & Liverpool in place of the 331s now.

 

[Nymanic]

There'd presumably have to be a shuffle of 331s and 323s in the NW too, most likely with the 4 car 331s ending up on South Manchester routes and 323s thereby working 6 car to Blackpool & Liverpool in place of the 331s now.

The 323s don't have SDO, so they're unable to double up on these routes at present.

Given their age, I doubt they'll have it retrofitted, but would like to be pleasantly surprised. A pair of 323s, at over 500 seats, would be very good at soaking up crowds.

 

[Dspatula]

Apparently 331029 is out on Blackpool-Hazel Grove today paired with 331019.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Apparently 331029 is out on Blackpool-Hazel Grove today paired with 331019.

Maybe one for the diagrams thread but it's related to 331s in the COVID timetable not the normal one:

Are all Blackpool North to Hazel Grove booked 6-car under the emergency timetable? I swear I've seen a few 3s on my walk if I go midday or to see something like the Gascoigne Wood to Longsight TPE move the other day.

In addition I don't think that the Blackpool to Manchester Airport is running either so that'll free up some units.

 

[Dspatula]

There have been the odd short forms due to faults, there was a least one last week you may just have been unlucky on the timing. They do run as single units on some Crewe and Stoke trains.

Yes there’s no Blackpool-Airport during the week just Sundays.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Blackpool-Hazel Grove should run on Sundays moving back to the normal timetable, even if only 2-hourly, but that's more of a speculative idea, as it would provide Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme with more regular services. Perhaps alternate every other hour Airport and Hazel Grove.

 

[Chorley Cake]

029 was indeed out tonight. Is 023 in service yet ?

 

[Jamesrob637]

A 331 or pair of disgraced itself in Salford today and would have caused major headaches under normal circumstances but of course passenger figures are still very low.

 

[_toommm_]

A 331 or pair of disgraced itself in Salford today and would have caused major headaches under normal circumstances but of course passenger figures are still very low.

Was that the Preston to Manchester train that set down around 13:00??

 

[Dspatula]

Was a 319.

 

[jonesy3001]

And that's why they're going instead of the 323s.

 

[Halish Railway]

331 107 just rolled into Ilkley and was using Friction brakes instead of its Dynamic braking system. Any reason for this?

I know that a couple of months ago the dynamic brakes were isolated for one reason or another, but I thought that this was solved.

 

[Geeves]

If the driver has not had the training with dynamic brakes he cannot use them in service either that or there is software issue, highly likely!

 

[Mollman]

Latest issue of Modern Railways in its news article about the Northern 100 Day Plan states that:

there is little enthusiasm for a small 'bespoke sub-fleet' of battery-electric trains to work services onto the non-electrified branch to Windermere, with one industry source suggesting 'some more electrification might be better'.

Depending on how far the plans are developed we may see the extra trailer vehicles arrive as standard vehicles to extend some units, perhaps with a few more units ordered if the electrification covers more than just the Windermere branch (slightly off topic but I would say the Blackpool South branch if the passing loop goes ahead to allow through Blackpool South - Manchester services).

 

[43096]

Latest issue of Modern Railways in its news article about the Northern 100 Day Plan states that:

Depending on how far the plans are developed we may see the extra trailer vehicles arrive as standard vehicles to extend some units, perhaps with a few more units ordered if the electrification covers more than just the Windermere branch (slightly off topic but I would say the Blackpool South branch if the passing loop goes ahead to allow through Blackpool South - Manchester services).

I wouldn't be ordering any more vehicles for the Northern EMUs; instead look at what is currently available and redeploy as suitable. For example, assuming the planned 6-car workings on the Leeds-Skipton line goes ahead, and working on the basis that at least one EMU fleet has to be split between East and West, I'd look at going "back to the future" and transferring some 323s over with the 331s going back west. The 323s have interiors that are more suited to suburban work than the 331s and there are another nine from West Mids that are not yet accounted for. Taking those on would give additional capacity.

As for Blackpool South: more services into Manchester? Seriously? We need to be running fewer, longer trains into Manchester to try to improve performance.

 

[jonesy3001]

More interested about the extra trailers, take it they're making the 3 cars into 4?

 

[Neptune]

I think a bigger priority with the new fleets would be to make the woefully inadequate 2 car 195’s into 3 cars.

 

[Mollman]

I wouldn't be ordering any more vehicles for the Northern EMUs; instead look at what is currently available and redeploy as suitable. For example, assuming the planned 6-car workings on the Leeds-Skipton line goes ahead, and working on the basis that at least one EMU fleet has to be split between East and West, I'd look at going "back to the future" and transferring some 323s over with the 331s going back west. The 323s have interiors that are more suited to suburban work than the 331s and there are another nine from West Mids that are not yet accounted for. Taking those on would give additional capacity.

As for Blackpool South: more services into Manchester? Seriously? We need to be running fewer, longer trains into Manchester to try to improve performance.

Good point about taking more 323s or even the 365.

No I didn't mean added extra services into Manchester, I think you'll find that the Victoria train currently terminates in Preston so could be extended to Blackpool South.

 

[jonesy3001]

Think the emu fleet will be just the 323s and 331s in the West and the 331s and 333s in the east.
Depends if it's 17 or all 26 323s that are transferring over to northern.