Northern Ireland: Future Railway Investment: a Consultation Paper.

[Eire Sprinter]

Future Railway Investment: a Consultation Paper.
Document Details

This Consultation Paper is seeking views on the priorities for future investment in our railways network. This will help us to determine a vision for railway services up to and beyond 2035. A 12 week consultation period commenced on 14 January 2013 and will close on 12 April 2013.

Ministerial Foreword
I am pleased to launch this public consultation which is seeking your views on the
priorities for future investment in our railways network. This will help us determine a
vision for railway services up to and beyond 2035.
Recently, I have received suggestions and proposals from fellow political representatives
and other interested parties as to how the railways network might be developed.
Railways infrastructure involves significant public expenditure projects with lengthy
planning and construction phases, extending over a number of budgetary cycles.
Whilst my Department’s current support for railways projects is at a higher level than
experienced during previous budget periods, maintaining and enhancing that investment
will be difficult in the prevailing economic climate. Looking forward over the next 20
years, there will be a need to set a strategic direction to determine the priority in which
we should tackle new railways projects.
The response to this public consultation will be used to advise the transportation
prioritisation framework being developed under the New Approach to Regional
Transportation. This framework will be used to advise decisions in future budget cycles.
I feel it is important, therefore, that you have an opportunity to have your voice heard
and in doing so help us determine the order in which railway projects should be taken
forward within the transportation prioritisation framework.
I look forward to receiving your views.

Source: Department for Regional Development (DRD) website.

An interesting consultation - the stunning growth figures are of note.

It looks at everything from the current network, to the Enterprise to possible line reopenings.

 

[PFX]

I read this a while back and it's clear that DRD have more or less written off most of the proposals already. Line extensions, while being of great benefit to the West, are being discounted on cost far exceeding any possible usage. The main focus is on improving what already exists as far as I can tell, with any Enterprise changes firmly linked to joint initiative with IÉ.

The public consultation also taking place is more of a PR exercise than actually listening to what people think, though to give Danny Kennedy his due, he does appear to have a reasonable interest in the rail travel.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For anyone wondering what the suggestions for new / reopened lines are, but doesn't want to wade through the document, the following are included:

Portadown to:
- Dungannon
- Omagh
- Enniskillen

Londonderry to:
- Letterkenny
- Donegal (town)
- Sligo

Crumlin line to Belfast International Airport (spur)

For some extra info which will dictate what happens, the document states it costs £11,000,000 for one standard mile (exc. stations and bridging) of new railway.

 

[Ivo]

I can see the last reopening certainly being beneficial, but otherwise I have to agree with the accepted view that most of them are too expensive to justify. They would have to be literally five miles from Portadown for there to be any real case, and five miles away Sligo certainly isn't.

 

[reb0118]

This would be a bit of a fantasy line to be honest in the current economic climate but you never know.

My choice for reopening would be the line from Portadown via Armagh, Monaghan, Clones (with a branch to Enniskillen), & Cavan, thence to Inny Jn. on the Sligo - Dublin line. Not only would this be a secondary Belfast - Dublin route, but it would also join four county towns to the rail network (two in NI & two in the ROI), as well as being a true cross border line. It would in fact cross the border no fewer than five times!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

This is a UK government document dealing with a UK rail operator with mention of some links across the border. If it was dealing primarily with the South East Trains franchise in South East England with the obscure possibility of some links through the tunnel to the Pas de Calais Region would it be in the International section ?

 

[PFX]

This is a UK government document dealing with a UK rail operator with mention of some links across the border. If it was dealing primarily with the South East Trains franchise in South East England with the obscure possibility of some links through the tunnel to the Pas de Calais Region would it be in the International section ?

It's not a UK Government document. It's a Northern Irleland Executive one, DRD being a department of the NI Executive. A UK Government document would have been issued by DfT.

Anyway, you've already had the answer to this in the thread you opened to ask the same question you ask here.

"Matters about NIR should be discussed in the UK Rail section. Matters relating to Iarnród Éireann should be discussed in International Transport as should the cross border Enterprise services. This has been the case since the name change from National Rail to UK Railway."

This thread has discussed both NIR and cross-border services (mentioned by the OP) which would appear to satisfy the condition for it being in the International section.

 

[yorksrob]

"UK Government" is an interesting term. Does it mean purely the UK wide Government based in Westminster, or does it mean any branch or layer of Government operating within the United Kingdom. Personally I would err on the side of the latter, for example, the local authority I currently work in isn't the UK Government, but it is a layer of UK Government (as illustrated by the fact that local Government email addresses are ".gov.uk.").

 

[PFX]

"UK Government" is an interesting term. Does it mean purely the UK wide Government based in Westminster, or does it mean any branch or layer of Government operating within the United Kingdom. Personally I would err on the side of the latter, for example, the local authority I currently work in isn't the UK Government, but it is a layer of UK Government (as illustrated by the fact that local Government email addresses are ".gov.uk.").

If someone refers to UK Government, it is generally taken to only mean that based at Westminster. Devolved government at Holyrood, Belfast and Cardiff is not referred to as the UK Government as they have no legislative power outwith their respective country. A local authority/council is referred to as local government.

Westminster refers to itself as the UK Government and has a Memorandum of Understanding between itself and the devolved administrations. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/devolution-memorandum-of-understanding-and-supplementary-agreement

 

[yorksrob]

If someone refers to UK Government, it is generally taken to only mean that based at Westminster. Devolved government at Holyrood, Belfast and Cardiff is not referred to as the UK Government as they have no legislative power outwith their respective country. A local authority/council is referred to as local government.

Westminster refers to itself as the UK Government and has a Memorandum of Understanding between itself and the devolved administrations. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/devolution-memorandum-of-understanding-and-supplementary-agreement

I think its a case of yes and no. If someone refers to the UK Government, then yes, I think its fair to say that they will usually mean Westminster. However, I think many people (myself included) interpret the phrase "UK Government" as meaning "the state" encompassing all layers of Government within the UK.

 

[big_dirt]

This would be a bit of a fantasy line to be honest in the current economic climate but you never know.

My choice for reopening would be the line from Portadown via Armagh, Monaghan, Clones (with a branch to Enniskillen), & Cavan, thence to Inny Jn. on the Sligo - Dublin line. Not only would this be a secondary Belfast - Dublin route, but it would also join four county towns to the rail network (two in NI & two in the ROI), as well as being a true cross border line. It would in fact cross the border no fewer than five times!

It's a pity the EU money tree has dried up as I'd imagine that the cross border idea would gain some good funding. European Cohesion Fund or some such.

Would it be feasible to lay tracks from Enniskillen to Sligo without tunnelling?

 

[Cyberbeagle]

It's a pity the EU money tree has dried up as I'd imagine that the cross border idea would gain some good funding. European Cohesion Fund or some such.

Would it be feasible to lay tracks from Enniskillen to Sligo without tunnelling?

Wot, under the border??

The only tunnelling I think that they could be referring to is the Dungannon tunnel, which still exists.

Personally I think the £11m per mile is a pretty inflated figure and designed to put people off. However think of the cost of the A5 per mile and how it compares?

Translink's Rail General Manager was on BBC Radio Ulster recently and seemed quite hopeful of Dungannon being reopened within the timescale of this consultation, well, as much as he could be.

 

[martinsh]

I read this a while back and it's clear that DRD have more or less written off most of the proposals already. Line extensions, while being of great benefit to the West, are being discounted on cost far exceeding any possible usage. .

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For anyone wondering what the suggestions for new / reopened lines are, but doesn't want to wade through the document, the following are included:

Londonderry to:
- Letterkenny
- Donegal (town)

Well if they want to save costs, they could always make these two narrow gauge ... :roll:

 

[bkhtele]

My comments submitted today for what they are worth!

I wish to make the comments below as part of the current consultation document, and believe that it is vital to also consider N. Ireland Rail in the context of GB rail travel. If we study rail maps from the 50s & 60s Ferry links & Rail connections were a vital aspect of N.Ireland rail options.

Serious consideration must be given to ensure there is an alternative to flying. *Surely it is critical that a reasonable rail/sea alternative is available within an EU state.

Key considerations:
1. Simple purchasing of tickets - buying rail/sea tickets on line or outside Glasgow/Londonrail stations - mostly it is difficult: e.g. " I don't think we sell these any more". - simple tickets should be available from automatic ticket machine and on line. Internet options regularly do not work.
2. Encourage p&o ferries to issue rail/sea ticket (ideally with inter availability with Stena) to provide a wider choice of sailings *The rail competition is air so cooperation is vital. (it is good that rail sail is now available via Liverpool).
3. Extend availability to all sailings 24hrs to allow more flexibility for delays en route and more alternatives for long journeys. *Currently it is impossible for rail passengers to board a ferry after 19.30 until the next morning. Therefore a train after 09.30am from London is not possible. *It would be good to leave later in the day. (via Holyhead or Cairnryan) A very early start if you need to travel via London. There *is capacity to handle passages at vehicle check in (Cairnryan) without extra staff, and the existing bus could be use to load foot passengers off peak (like Stena Liverpool ferry).
4. Many passengers want to travel by rail not Translink coach!
5. Who in N.Ireland is accountable for the passenger experience from Belfast to UK cities by Rail? *By insisting that the individual companies focus on the whole passenger experience the service could be really improved at no extra cost. This has been lost with privatisation.

I hope you find these comments useful and are based on fairly regular travel from England to N.Ireland using *the rail/ferry options available

 

[citybus]

Deadlines for submissions is coming up, you have to send in your recommendations by Friday.

I've only read 1/3 of it, but I chuckled at the sentence that claimed 6 to 7tph on key Northern Ireland rail lines. Yeah, but only three/four in one direction! Is this the first time the TPH measure has been sexed up like this?

Funnily enough they mention the Greenisland to Monkstown route, I would've thought they sold this land to the council even though it's next to worthless.

 

[citybus]

I have to say I didn't even consider being a proponent for electrification in my consultation response. I was in an odd predicament because I'm very supportive of it in mainland Britain, but given how immature the railway scene is in Northern Ireland it just seems like trying to run a marathon before you can walk. I'd rather a few hundred million be spent on improving the existing service or even a few modest extensions into the Republic than to face the slog of laying dozens of miles of overhead cables and buying tons of new trains. Is anyone else of the same mind as me?

However from a cross border perspective it appears a more attractive prospect given that the DART extensions will (presumably) involve electrification all the way up to Drogheda. Electrifying the Enterprise route would have the added bonus of electrifying all the stations on the Portadown line, and out of all the train routes in Northern Ireland it's the most 'urban'. You would probably end up severing the Portadown line from the Bangor line but with (notional) improved interchange at Great Victoria Street this wouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[PFX]

Some people aren't too convinced by the costs being mooted in the consultation. The Ulster Gazette came up with a piece of genius for a headline re same.

http://www.ulstergazette.co.uk/articles/news/33346/over-100m/

 

[Con]

Some people aren't too convinced by the costs being mooted in the consultation. The Ulster Gazette came up with a piece of genius for a headline re same.

http://www.ulstergazette.co.uk/articles/news/33346/over-100m/

Portadown to Armagh was the best chance for rail restoration in Northern Ireland but the cynical nature of the article is a good example of the uphill struggle getting anything restored in both parts of Ireland is.

 

[citybus]

The original Armagh route suffers from not having a station in the heart of the town centre, though you could easily continue it through to the retail park on the A9 if you knock down ten houses (or shrink the retail warehouses instead). It could make for a small park & ride. Ideally I would go for a station in Armagh town centre proper, that's where all the tourist and shopping attractions are. If you branch south off the original line just before you get to the town you could end up with a station here by the observatory.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...=dg4xKHYSt-S-nEWn49u_TQ&cbp=12,355.17,,1,1.05

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Portadown to Armagh was the best chance for rail restoration in Northern Ireland but the cynical nature of the article is a good example of the uphill struggle getting anything restored in both parts of Ireland is.

Actually the deputy editor said in BBC interview that the cynicism was directed at the costs produced by the DRD?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22220002