Northern Line

[Buttsy]

Not sure if this is the right section for this.

As the Charing Cross branch is to be cut short at Kennington the majority of the day, extended to Battersea in the future and run to only one of the Northern termini, is it time that the West End and Bank branches of the Northern line were separated on the map and one of them given a new name?

I would suggest that we have a 'West End' line (Edgware - Kennington via Charing Cross) as well as the Northern and worked as separate lines although stock would be common to both. Memory suggests that there is a cross-platform interchange available both at Kennington and Camden Town.

I don't know how the Northern works at present as far as services to the Northern termini go and I don't mind my idea being shot down in flames.

 

[DarloRich]

When I moved down south I thought the Northern Line might get me home, but it is a con. It only goes as far as Barnet and that isnt very far north at all.

People ARE confused by it, especially the concept of a southbound northern line train and the fact it has two branches so changing the name of part of the route might be sensible.

 

[Clip]

When I moved down south I thought the Northern Line might get me home, but it is a con. It only goes as far as Barnet and that isnt very far north at all.

People ARE confused by it, especially the concept of a southbound northern line train and the fact it has two branches so changing the name of part of the route might be sensible.

Are they? Ive never noticed this. You could also say the second part of that sentence for every other line too.

Think there is a thread about the separation of the Northern line in the Underground forum.

Thing is if they change the name it will take years for Londoners to catch on and use whatever new name may be given. Most of us understand the 'Via Bank' or 'Via Charing X' routes by their very names.

 

[stut]

Thing is if they change the name it will take years for Londoners to catch on and use whatever new name may be given. Most of us understand the 'Via Bank' or 'Via Charing X' routes by their very names.

Too right. Just look at how many people still seem to live in counties that ceased to exist in 1974, and fail to accept that 020 is the STD code for London...

 

[Buttsy]

Are they? Ive never noticed this. You could also say the second part of that sentence for every other line too.

Think there is a thread about the separation of the Northern line in the Underground forum.

Thing is if they change the name it will take years for Londoners to catch on and use whatever new name may be given. Most of us understand the 'Via Bank' or 'Via Charing X' routes by their very names.

Londoner's seemed to have little problem with 'Hammersmith & City' or 'London Overground' rather than Metropolitan or East London Line.

 

[Clip]

Ahh but the joys of the Overground is that its too much like the Overland

But remember the H&C has been called that for a long time AFAIK

 

[Buttsy]

But remember the H&C has been called that for a long time AFAIK

It depends on your definition of long.
It only changed names in the 80s (when the line turned pink) as I remember it being just Metropolitan as a kid. Also, the London Game version I play from the 70s shows it as Metropolitan so you don't have to take a 'change' card to go from Finchley Road to Paddington.

 

[SS4]

Is it really worth the expense to change it over? It would entail new posters, new pocket maps, new branding on the rolling stock and an advertising campaign to get the message across. Doesn't seem worth it in my experience.

 

[Buttsy]

Is it really worth the expense to change it over? It would entail new posters, new pocket maps, new branding on the rolling stock and an advertising campaign to get the message across. Doesn't seem worth it in my experience.

A bit like the various different ones issued for the extensions to the Overground network?

If you show every train as West End (Northern) then this does the advertising for a few years before you do such a changeover, such as when the Battersea extension or Crossrail are completed (if the latter is due to appear on the maps).

I take your point though.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Londoner's seemed to have little problem with 'Hammersmith & City' or 'London Overground' rather than Metropolitan or East London Line.

..and Jubilee instead of the Stanmore branch of the Bakerloo.
Incidentally isn't it a milestone on the Northern line next Monday regarding the end of manually driven trains ?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Well, the H&C has only been pink, and a formally separate line since...1990, I think. Before that, yes, it was part of the Metropolitan Line (and I still sometimes refer to it as such...) - but it was none the less referred to as the "Hammersmith & City branch" on maps on the trains (as opposed to the "East London Section" of the Met line that became the East London line, then part of the Overground).

The main confusion in my experience with the Northern line is that it is not unknown for trains to leave Camden Town (mostly southbound) to the opposite branch from that which they were initially announced to go down. Sure, you can change at Euston (which is a hassle and a bit of a walk), but it is annoying. Probably separating out the branches would make sense, and not cause major inconvenience - - -well, so long as the interchange at Camden Town were upgraded (which would require major work, and a substantial reorganization and expansion of the station.....none of which will come easily or cheaply)

 

[Manchester77]

Not sure if this is the right section for this.

As the Charing Cross branch is to be cut short at Kennington the majority of the day, extended to Battersea in the future and run to only one of the Northern termini, is it time that the West End and Bank branches of the Northern line were separated on the map and one of them given a new name?

I would suggest that we have a 'West End' line (Edgware - Kennington via Charing Cross) as well as the Northern and worked as separate lines although stock would be common to both. Memory suggests that there is a cross-platform interchange available both at Kennington and Camden Town.

I don't know how the Northern works at present as far as services to the Northern termini go and I don't mind my idea being shot down in flames.

The split is on the tables as a northern line upgrade 2 supposedly in the early 2030s.

But for the split to work, Camden Town would need complete rebuilding to cope with the extra people using it to change.

However, depots and sidings would be split with each line having its own depot and sets of sidings.

City Line - Morden to High Barnet / Mill Hill Easthas depot at Morden and sidings at Highgate

Northern Line - Edgward to Kennington (or Battersea)has depot at Golders Green and sidings at Edgware

 

[moogal]

They've fixed it these days, but the old version of the TfL journey planner, on asking for a journey from Euston to wherever, would ask whether you meant the Euston (Bank branch) or Euston (Charing Cross branch) station. As an (at the time) out-of-towner without a tube map or a good grasp of the layout of the lines, that was very confusing, particularly since for all intents and purposes they're the same station!

 

[341o2]

When I moved down south I thought the Northern Line might get me home, but it is a con. It only goes as far as Barnet and that isnt very far north at all

originally the Northern line was planned to run to Bushey heath near watford - Mill Hill east branch to join up with the Edgware branch and continue north. the works at Aldenham should have been for the line, but after completing part of the work, the extention was abandoned. Another proposed branch was to Muswell hill & Alexandra Palace

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_line Northern Heights paragraph

 

[Class172]

URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_line"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_line[/URL] Northern Heights paragraph

I think that if the whole of the Northern Heights project had been completed, then that area of the tube map would look quite confusing, with black lines going in all directions.

 

[341o2]

what should have been made clear that the line from Moorgate - Finsbury Park (now used by GNER electrics) and then to Alexandra Palace would have been isolated from the rest of the system - rather like the East London line

 

[Peter Mugridge]

However, depots and sidings would be split with each line having its own depot and sets of sidings.

City Line - Morden to High Barnet / Mill Hill Easthas depot at Morden and sidings at Highgate

Northern Line - Edgward to Kennington (or Battersea)has depot at Golders Green and sidings at Edgware

I think they might want to re-think the first name as there is already a Hammersmith & City Line and a Waterloo & City Line; having a City Line as well - especially one which would have interchanges with both the others ( at King's Cross and at Bank ) sounds like a recipe for tourist confusion to me!

 

[Manchester77]

I think they might want to re-think the first name as there is already a Hammersmith & City Line and a Waterloo & City Line; having a City Line as well - especially one which would have interchanges with both the others ( at King's Cross and at Bank ) sounds like a recipe for tourist confusion to me!

What else could we call it?
We couldn't call it the Yerkes Line because he wasn't involved in that part of the network.
City line works because it'd follow the route of the City and South London Railway

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If they keep the Northern Line name for the City branch, then the Charing Cross branch could get a name related to the west end theatres area it serves?

 

[Pumbaa]

Is it really worth the expense to change it over? It would entail new posters, new pocket maps, new branding on the rolling stock and an advertising campaign to get the message across. Doesn't seem worth it in my experience.

That is pittance compared with the benefits. The main problem is capacity. The flat junctions at Camden chew it up. Eradicate this and you can up the frequency. I don't have anything to hand, I seem to recall 32tph being possible up from the current 24/26tph?

 

[mr_jrt]

I think that if the whole of the Northern Heights project had been completed, then that area of the tube map would look quite confusing, with black lines going in all directions.

Indeed.

 

[Mojo]

That is pittance compared with the benefits. The main problem is capacity. The flat junctions at Camden chew it up. Eradicate this and you can up the frequency. I don't have anything to hand, I seem to recall 32tph being possible up from the current 24/26tph?

What do you mean by "flat junctions?" The junction at Camden Town is conflict-free.

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Camden Town-lct5-10.gif
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b300/rbruce1314/ctj002.jpg (note Charing + and Moorgate labels are the wrong way round)

 

[Pumbaa]

Aha. Got it. Currently 20tph, 24tph after current work underway completed, 32tph if lines separated.

The work at Camden would include re-aligning junction profiles to increase line speeds for the new service patterns. Currently, with only 5am - 9am being the only time the new proposed system is in operation, you can see the increase in tph possible. By mixing the traffic through the junctions here, you chew up time and capacity. Streamline the system and it makes it a lot better. There may not be 'direct conflict' but there is still time wasted through trying to thread multiple branches together and send them off again in different directions.

 

[317 forever]

If they do split the Northern Line into Edgware - Charing Cross - Battersea and High Barnet / Mill Hill East - Bank - Morden, they could use the name Battersea Line to give the extension a high profile from the start. This would inevitably mean finding a new colour for the Underground map!

 

[Class172]

As for colours, we've had many debates on which colour will feature next, but I suspect an Olive green (slightly darker than this) could be a possible choice.

 

[Buttsy]

As for colours, we've had many debates on which colour will feature next, but I suspect an Olive green (slightly darker than this) could be a possible choice.

I'd go for a deep purple myself.

 

[Manchester77]

I'd go for a deep purple myself.

too similar to the metropolitan line

 

[Buttsy]

too similar to the metropolitan line

I realised that, but I was looking to make a gag about Smoke On The Water...

 

[mirodo]

How about Magenta?

 

[Buttsy]

how about magenta?

royal blue perhaps?