Should a new Northern Network Railcard be introduced?

[Llandudno]

There are various elections taking place across the country next week including for various metro mayors.

One mayoral candidate (I won’t name as I don’t want to bring politics into the discussion) has suggested that they would campaign for a Northern Network Railcard, similar to the one in the South East of England.

A few thoughts of mine:

Is this a good idea?
Where would the boundaries be?
Would it be limited to Northern Rail only and not TPE or Avanti etc?
Would Merseyrail accept it! (Smiley face!)

If it was introduced and you had to hold an annual season ticket in the north to be able to qualify, what would the cheapest season ticket be?

 

[yorksrob]

They're on the right tracks (and might well garner my vote were they in my area) however for simplicity it ought to be national.

 

[greatkingrat]

Bentley to Adwick is £192 a year.

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of season tickets, if this were to apply, these should include PTE products such as metrocards.

I don't think such a card ought to be reliant on having a season ticket. You'd surely be trying to get new business.

 

[janb]

I don't think such a card ought to be reliant on having a season ticket. You'd surely be trying to get new business.

Yes, the OP perhaps conflating Network Railcards and Gold Cards.

 

[DanNCL]

On the specific issue of Merseyrail acceptance, my guess is it’ll probably be tied with Tyne & Wear Metro acceptance, either both will have it or neither will have it.

 

[Craig1122]

Might as well have a national one rather than introduce another part country one. The original Network Card was introduced to try & fill long commuter trains outside the peak. Given the number of complaints about short over crowded trains in the North already I'm not sure it would be a good idea to try & encourage lots more people on to the network as it stands?

Also of note is that the current Network Card is much less attractive than when introduced & seems to be grudgingly accepted rather than actively promoted.

 

[HullRailMan]

Lots of questions….
Define ‘northern’? If it’s geographical, we then have the fun game of deciding where the north begins and ends!
How would it interact with existing PTE tickets?
Would through fares be available for trams/metro etc?
Would long distance trains passing though ‘the north’ accept it for short journeys?
Who funds it?
Do you then get rid of local railcards within the validity area?

 

[JD2168]

Bentley to Adwick is £192 a year.

Probably cheaper getting the 366 then 350/351 bus services with a simple change at Frenchgate Interchange.

 

[JonathanH]

Who funds it?

I suspect that the people promoting the idea would think that it should be self funding, but it is debatable whether:
a) there is enough capacity for 50% more people to travel to make up for the 33% reduction in fares
b) there would actually be an overnight 50% increase in travel to maintain revenue.

The original Network Card was introduced to try & fill long commuter trains outside the peak.

Yes, an issue that by all accounts no longer exists.

As I have written before, the issue with railcards for all is that they are such a blunt instrument for trying to increase railway use, and don't allow targeting of discounts at the times when there is actually capacity. Those long commuter trains at off peak times are now busier than they were in the 1980s.

There seems to be a fair consensus on this forum that the railway is doing well at off-peak times, with full trains at the current fare levels, which suggests that the railway doesn't need to reduce fares.

Might as well have a national one rather than introduce another part country one.

No, in my opinion. That job is now done by offering advance fares on longer journeys. By all means find ways of making short local journeys more attractive but it isn't the right way to develop travel over longer distances over multiple regions.

 

[Craig1122]

No, in my opinion. That job is now done by offering advance fares on longer journeys. By all means find ways of making short local journeys more attractive but it isn't the right way to develop travel over longer distances over multiple regions.

Oh I'm certainly not advocating for that. Just saying that if that route were to be taken then yet another regional card would make little sense.

Personally I agree that there are far better ways to target filling of excess capacity and that we shouldn't be encouraging more people on to trains that are already full.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that the people promoting the idea would think that it should be self funding, but it is debatable whether:
a) there is enough capacity for 50% more people to travel to make up for the 33% reduction in fares
b) there would actually be an overnight 50% increase in travel to maintain revenue.


Yes, an issue that by all accounts no longer exists.

As I have written before, the issue with railcards for all is that they are such a blunt instrument for trying to increase railway use, and don't allow targeting of discounts at the times when there is actually capacity. Those long commuter trains at off peak times are now busier than they were in the 1980s.

There seems to be a fair consensus on this forum that the railway is doing well at off-peak times, with full trains at the current fare levels, which suggests that the railway doesn't need to reduce fares.


No, in my opinion. That job is now done by offering advance fares on longer journeys. By all means find ways of making short local journeys more attractive but it isn't the right way to develop travel over longer distances over multiple regions.

Advanced purchase is a one trick pony that frankly, doesn't suit passengers needs. Yes, it might be suitable for some people on very long distance journeys, but pretending the approach is suitable for multiple short and medium journeys around the country is a nonsense.

There wouldn't need to be a 50% increase in travel because it would be highly unlikely that everyone would buy one. Then if you made it only valid after 9:00 monday - thursday it would stop a large amount of commuter traffic using it.

Thinking outside of the railway bubble for a moment, the current situation of the poorer areas of the country not having railcard access contributes to structural inequality within the country.

 

[Snow1964]

Might as well have a national one rather than introduce another part country one. The original Network Card was introduced to try & fill long commuter trains outside the peak. Given the number of complaints about short over crowded trains in the North already I'm not sure it would be a good idea to try & encourage lots more people on to the network as it stands?

Also of note is that the current Network Card is much less attractive than when introduced & seems to be grudgingly accepted rather than actively promoted.

Or better still just abandon the Network one and drop all off peak fares by about 30%.

But I agree, the basic concept of treating different parts of country in different ways is fundamentally wrong in an era of levelling up.

 

[Iskra]

I know it’s not applicable to individual travellers, but the Northern Duo does fulfill the purpose that the OP is aspiring to.

Or better still just abandon the Network one and drop all off peak fares by about 30%.

But I agree, the basic concept of treating different parts of country in different ways is fundamentally wrong in an era of levelling up.

Or this, following Scotrail’s lead.

 

[JonathanH]

Or better still just abandon the Network one and drop all off peak fares by about 30%.

Or better still from the railway's point of view, abandon it and leave the quantum of return fares where they are, at the point that Project Oval is expanded, and the norm becomes single leg payment on Contactless cards.

 

[yorksrob]

Or better still from the railway's point of view, abandon it and leave the quantum of return fares where they are, at the point that Project Oval is expanded, and the norm becomes single leg payment on Contactless cards.

Yet another idea to the detriment of passengers.

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely it is looking at it the wrong way around - and that effectively the Network Card is a loyalty card - “I’ve spent £30 on it, I’ll try and save £30 on fares” and therefore making some kind of scheme national - albeit on a weaker discount, would be fairer at very least, and allow more variation to incentivise genuinely empty trains.

As others have said however, it seems more likely such an oddity will be quietly withdrawn or benefits weakened than a wider rollout.

 

[yorksrob]

As others have said however, it seems more likely such an oddity will be quietly withdrawn or benefits weakened than a wider rollout.

I think it's called "levelling down".

 

[Howardh]

What surprises me is that individual TOC's don't have their own network, or loyalty card, so if you use their trains specifically (ie TPE) and probably off-peak only for the cost of the card you get a discount. I'd certainly buy one for Northern, TPE and Avanti (depending on up-front cost) however I'm entitled to the senior railcard so not sure how a system would work for me - maybe the "loyalty card" would get me a certain % off the reduced railcard fare?

But after nationalisation, if it comes, then I can see the value of an off-peak regional card, but again will it be valid with a senior railcard deduction? And, of course, many on bus passes+ travel within their region for free anyway!

 

[JonathanH]

What surprises me is that individual TOC's don't have their own network, or loyalty card, so if you use their trains specifically (ie TPE) and probably off-peak only for the cost of the card you get a discount.

Probably because such a thing would be a blunt instrument, and just encourage more travel at already busy times.

Instead, rail companies tend to focus on 'off-season' promotions and sales, which fill trains and provide discounts at times of year when there actually is spare capacity - TPE has had sales of discounted advance fares in the past. Much more focused spend than loyalty arrangements.

 

[yorksrob]

What surprises me is that individual TOC's don't have their own network, or loyalty card, so if you use their trains specifically (ie TPE) and probably off-peak only for the cost of the card you get a discount. I'd certainly buy one for Northern, TPE and Avanti (depending on up-front cost) however I'm entitled to the senior railcard so not sure how a system would work for me - maybe the "loyalty card" would get me a certain % off the reduced railcard fare?

Probably because such a thing would be a blunt instrument, and just encourage more travel at already busy times.

Instead, rail companies tend to focus on 'off-season' promotions and sales, which fill trains and provide discounts at times of year when there actually is spare capacity - TPE has had sales of discounted advance fares in the past. Much more focused spend than loyalty arrangements.

I put it down to a lack of innovation within the private sector.

 

[JonathanH]

I put it down to a lack of innovation within the private sector.

Surely it is just that they have a different approach to marketing than the one you would like them to have? Flash sales, newspaper tokens, promoting use of e-tickets etc are valid innovation.

 

[Iskra]

Surely it is just that they have a different approach to marketing than the one you would like them to have? Flash sales, newspaper tokens, promoting use of e-tickets etc are valid innovation.

Or their hands are tied due to government interference.

We’ve seen what £2 fares have done for bus ridership, but unfortunately there are parts of the railway that can’t cope with any further increases in patronage, so blanket schemes aren’t going to be viable.

 

[renegademaster]

"Network North" monthly pass in the style of the German €9 go anywhere ticket , at whatever Andy Burnham's spreadsheet decides as acceptable subsidy

 

[A0wen]

The elephant in the room, which is being ignored, are the reasons the Network Railcard was introduced.

Fares in the South East are *much* higher than those in the north - even where there weren't PTEs involved.

To give an example - Welwyn Garden City (WGC) is 20 miles to Kings Cross (KX), Congleton (CON) is 20 miles to Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) - off peak returns as follows:

WGC - KX £ 15.90

CON - MAN £ 11.80

So the same journey in the South East is 30% more than the one in the North.

The Network Railcard came about because trains in the London & South East were full and standing at peak times and empty off peak, so it was a way to try to stimulate demand for off-peak leisure travel.

AIUI there isn't the need to stimulate that demand in "the North" because according to the many postings on here and on the media, the trains in the north heading into Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield etc are full and standing even off peak. So instead all we have on this thread are the usual posts from the usual suspects wanting their ability to trackbash around the north to be subsidised even further by somebody else.

 

[JonathanH]

Fares in the South East are *much* higher than those in the north - even where there weren't PTEs involved

Some off peak fares in the South East are now substantially cheaper than fares in the North, even before railcard discounts are applied.

On a Saturday morning, the fares you quoted are

Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross £11.10 (£7.30 with railcard)

Congleton to Manchester £12.80

I think you picked up advance fares for your example.

The Network Railcard came about because trains in the London & South East were full and standing at peak times and empty off peak, so it was a way to try to stimulate demand for off-peak leisure travel.

From that perspective, it could be argued that it has done its job and is no longer necessary to stimulate demand. Many trains towards London on Saturday mornings are now very well loaded.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. The old canard of South Eastern fares being cheaper doesnt bear scrutiny.

Take a day return from Eastbourne to Bognor, a distance of around fifty miles. This is showing at £20.20, and that's without Network railcard or groupsave etc.

Compare that to Leeds to Manchester, a distance of around 44 miles. The Northern stopper fare seems to be slightly more expensive per mile at £19.80 (and much more expensive if the Eastbourne passenger's using a Network Railcard).

The TPE fares something like £27 !

 

[renegademaster]

Some off peak fares in the South East are now substantially cheaper than fares in the North, even before railcard discounts are applied.

On a Saturday morning, the fares you quoted are

Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross £11.10 (£7.30 with railcard)

Congleton to Manchester £12.80

I think you picked up advance fares for your example.


From that perspective, it could be argued that it has done its job and is no longer necessary to stimulate demand. Many trains towards London on Saturday mornings are now very well loaded.

I doubt the network railcard has been profitable for quite a while, just be to much negative publicity to get rid of it now

 

[Blackpool boy]

Personally before any sort of discount railcard comes into force they need to sort the capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally before any sort of discount railcard comes into force they need to sort the capacity.

That's great, but you're more or less resigning the North to never having better fares.