Northern Overcrowding

[123*]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

 

[Anonymous10]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

if all major teams in the north are playing they likely can't take stock from one part the north to another in wales for rugby trains are often used from Pembrokeshire and north wales with 153s and 150s or bus replacements operating instead

 

[wobman]

if all major teams in the north are playing they likely can't take stock from one part the north to another in wales for rugby trains are often used from Pembrokeshire and north wales with 153s and 150s or bus replacements operating instead

Why would Northern take units from TFW ? They have no link, the arriva days are long gone.

 

[Egg Centric]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

The major north east football team Gateshead was not at home today, as it was playing the equally major north east football team Spennymoor

 

[Starmill]

Why would Northern take units from TFW ? They have no link, the arriva days are long gone.

I think that the comparison was being drawn with internal cascades.

 

[zwk500]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Let's be realistic, only the first 3 have a noticeable impact on train services.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

What do you imagine could be planned better? If there aren't any units lying around the depot the only way to get more units would be to cancel trains. Should the people of Hexham or Morpeth lose their services because of a football match in Middlesbrough?

if all major teams in the north are playing they likely can't take stock from one part the north to another in wales for rugby trains are often used from Pembrokeshire and north wales with 153s and 150s or bus replacements operating instead

You wouldn't have been swapping units to/from Wales regardless of the issues of it being different companies because of the time it would take to move the trains and the cost of the crew. You'd probably need at least 3 route conductors (or hire 1 in from another TOC), and the units would need to arrive in time to be refuelled at Heaton or York. All for an afternoon's work.

 

[Taunton]

It does strike me that the £200bn or whatever is this week's figure for North of England improvements would be very substantially cut into by simply providing a sensible amount of stock for existing services. Just getting back to the same number of vehicles as used to be allocated to the dmu depots at Gosforth and Darlington in the 1960s-70s, plus the hauled stock at Newcastle, no more, would be a very good start.

 

[zwk500]

It does strike me that the £200bn or whatever is this week's figure for North of England improvements would be very substantially cut into by simply providing a sensible amount of stock for existing services. Just getting back to the same number of vehicles as used to be allocated to the dmu depots at Gosforth and Darlington in the 1960s-70s, plus the hauled stock at Newcastle, no more, would be a very good start.

We should base our rolling stock strategy on returning to a previous level with no regard for modern operations, travel patterns or economics? (Sorry, being devil's advocate)

Your point is valid, but indicates nostalgic thinking. It would be better put as 'use the £200bn to lengthen trains and platforms for services that are already overcrowded.'

 

[Starmill]

Your point is valid, but indicates nostalgic thinking. It would be better put as 'use the £200bn to lengthen trains and platforms for services that are already overcrowded.'

Some would argue that that's what it is doing, of course.

 

[Anonymous10]

Why would Northern take units from TFW ? They have no link, the arriva days are long gone.

i was using tfw as a example of how operators move units between areas in their region simply if northern have home games in all regions of their network then they cant do what most TOCs do and move stock tfw was merely my example

Let's be realistic, only the first 3 have a noticeable impact on train services.

What do you imagine could be planned better? If there aren't any units lying around the depot the only way to get more units would be to cancel trains. Should the people of Hexham or Morpeth lose their services because of a football match in Middlesbrough?

You wouldn't have been swapping units to/from Wales regardless of the issues of it being different companies because of the time it would take to move the trains and the cost of the crew. You'd probably need at least 3 route conductors (or hire 1 in from another TOC), and the units would need to arrive in time to be refuelled at Heaton or York. All for an afternoon's work.

please refer to what ive just said above

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

Who's responsibility is it to plan and add the extra services ? Are the local teams going to pay for additional pathways ? are the TOCs expected to check all home fixtures, plan and pay for additional services ?

Not only that. Which level of football should be catered for ? Premiership or down as far as Vanarama National League North ?

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps it's worth considering what has been a runaway success.

TPE has had its rolling stock doubled and has become a well used busy service as opposed to as disaster area that it was for ten years.

It's an example of a well targeted investment that has had a transformative effect very quickly.

 

[30907]

Perhaps it's worth considering what has been a runaway success.

TPE has had its rolling stock doubled and has become a well used busy service as opposed to as disaster area that it was for ten years.

It's an example of a well targeted investment that has had a transformative effect very quickly.

Indeed - but not based on random combinations of sporting fixtures.
More seriously - perhaps Northern should have been allowed to hire-in a couple of TPE's current spares?

 

[Watershed]

More seriously - perhaps Northern should have been allowed to hire-in a couple of TPE's current spares?

What use would that be to them? Their crews don't sign any of TPE's traction and TPE don't sign the Durham Coast.

There are also not very many spares at the moment. Really it's just the Mk5s that are sitting about, and I don't imagine anyone else would touch those with a bargepole...

 

[northernchris]

With many events on across the north Northern have had many overcrowded trains today. There's only so far the rolling stock can be stretched although I do wonder how the December timetable is going to be achieved given more services are added without an increase to the fleet

 

[Andyh82]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

Slightly off topic but I’m surprised they have Sunderland and Newcastle at home on the same day, don’t they coordinate these things? I know for example slightly further south Leeds and Huddersfield are never at home on the same day despite them sometimes (such as now) being in different leagues

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Slightly off topic but I’m surprised they have Sunderland and Newcastle at home on the same day, don’t they coordinate these things? I know for example slightly further south Leeds and Huddersfield are never at home on the same day despite them sometimes (such as now) being in different leagues

Football crowds have certainly caught the railway cold this autumn. Today Huddersfield hosted West Bromwich Albion who brought a good following with quite a number of them using the train. Those supporters had three routing options for getting home (Leeds, Manchester or Sheffield) and all were quite busy. The Sheffield route in particular is relevant on this thread, being Northern, and the two-car 150s there and back (from Denby Dale) were quite cosy to say the least... the heavy delays caused by poor railhead conditions didn't help either.

 

[evergreenadam]

How far short is Northern of the rolling stock it needs?

it is interesting that Northern struggled with weekend overcrowding on DMU operated services in the pre Christmas period before the pandemic and yet despite electrification, Pacer replacement, new rolling stock and reduced services it seems that it still does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How far short is Northern of the rolling stock it needs?

it is interesting that Northern struggled with weekend overcrowding on DMU operated services in the pre Christmas period before the pandemic and yet despite electrification, Pacer replacement, new rolling stock and reduced services it seems that it still does.

I suspect some of it relates to trains being overall shorter. If you have a 12 car 350 formation that normally loads fully seated, if another 400 people rock up from a major event of some kind you can still cram them on. Whereas if you have a 4-car 150 formation fully seated, you can't. And Christmas shopping causes the same sort of large crowds at quite narrow times of day that major events do.

I am really not sure how you can solve that other than fiddling with the ticketing system, e.g. adding temporary fares with peak restrictions on a Saturday and Sunday to price people into avoiding the busiest times.

 

[Horizon22]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

I might agree on your definition of "major" for the first 3 (and maybe the 4th), but I really wouldn't for the following teams based on their average attendance.

Ultimately many fleets are stretched as are train crews still on many weekends.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect some of it relates to trains being overall shorter. If you have a 12 car 350 formation that normally loads fully seated, if another 400 people rock up from a major event of some kind you can still cram them on. Whereas if you have a 4-car 150 formation fully seated, you can't. And Christmas shopping causes the same sort of large crowds at quite narrow times of day that major events do.

This is something that often gets forgotten when comparing the nebulous "North" to London/the former NSE area.

Clearly people from the Midlands are also mostly used to short trains, as all the West Brom fans were crowding the middle section of P1 at Huddersfield last night rather than spreading out along the whole length!

 

[Bertie the bus]

For the first time ever all major NE football teams were at home today: Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Gateshead, Darlington, Blyth, South Shields and Spennymoor.

Trains have been repeatedly delayed today on the Durham Coast Line due to overcrowding and yet only two car services operated most of the day. Surely there has to be better planning going into this?

Trains are usually rammed on a Saturday when one team is at home, never mind three!

Isn’t this one of the reasons neighbouring teams don’t play at home on the same day? I know police resourcing is a major reason but I would have thought transport was another. The question should be why did Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough all play at home on the same day not why couldn’t the transport system cope.

 

[Grecian 1998]

It is rather odd - the normal rule of thumb is that rival teams don't both play at home the same day. Curiously both Bristol City and Rovers also played at home at the same time yesterday respectively which I can't remember happening before. Maybe the rules were relaxed when there were no fans due to COVID last year and haven't been reinstated.

It looks as though both Newcastle and Sunderland are at home again on 4 December so the same issue may arise. I can't see any days where they are both scheduled to play away. The fixture list is usually carefully planned to make sure (where possible) that fans of rival teams aren't likely to catch the same trains or go to the same service stations.

 

[deep south]

I do agree, the fixture list should never have Newcastle and Sunderland at home in the same weekend, this is a major constraint in the fixture planning. Something went wrong...

The 4th December is a late change, as Sunderland and Oxford were both defeated in the first round of the FA cup so this is a catch up game from an early season postponement.

But rather than run extra trains, couldn't they run longer ones using, I dunno, some kind of attachment mechanism??? Maybe every item of rolling stock was in use already, or maybe there was a lack of forward planning.

 

[greyman42]

It is rather odd - the normal rule of thumb is that rival teams don't both play at home the same day. Curiously both Bristol City and Rovers also played at home at the same time yesterday respectively which I can't remember happening before. Maybe the rules were relaxed when there were no fans due to COVID last year and haven't been reinstated.

It looks as though both Newcastle and Sunderland are at home again on 4 December so the same issue may arise. I can't see any days where they are both scheduled to play away. The fixture list is usually carefully planned to make sure (where possible) that fans of rival teams aren't likely to catch the same trains or go to the same service stations.

It is very unusual for Newcastle and Sunderland to be at home on the same day but it happens with the London teams every week.

 

[Hadders]

I do agree, the fixture list should never have Newcastle and Sunderland at home in the same weekend, this is a major constraint in the fixture planning. Something went wrong...

The 4th December is a late change, as Sunderland and Oxford were both defeated in the first round of the FA cup so this is a catch up game from an early season postponement.

But rather than run extra trains, couldn't they run longer ones using, I dunno, some kind of attachment mechanism??? Maybe every item of rolling stock was in use already, or maybe there was a lack of forward planning.

The problem is usually a lack of compatible rolling stock. You also need to consider platform lengths as trains length can't be longer than the platforms. Some trains have selective door opening which allows trains longer than the platform to be used but these are very much the minority of trains.

 

[ModernRailways]

I do agree, the fixture list should never have Newcastle and Sunderland at home in the same weekend, this is a major constraint in the fixture planning. Something went wrong...

The 4th December is a late change, as Sunderland and Oxford were both defeated in the first round of the FA cup so this is a catch up game from an early season postponement.

But rather than run extra trains, couldn't they run longer ones using, I dunno, some kind of attachment mechanism??? Maybe every item of rolling stock was in use already, or maybe there was a lack of forward planning.

Other than derby games I can't remember the last time both played up here on the same day. They usually have their matches alternating, so Newcastle at home means Sunderland will play away.

Northern I don't believe a lot of spare stock up here, they also don't really have trains that can handle significant crowds. 156 and 158s aren't really suitable for significant match day traffic, they can cope usually because the Metro takes the brunt, but yesterday everything struggled with huge gaps in service on our system, mainly down to driver availability, LRA and new drivers still not knowing how to deal with LRA, you also had just the general busyness caused by christmas shoppers, and two home games at different ends of the system.

It is very unusual for Newcastle and Sunderland to be at home on the same day but it happens with the London teams every week.

London is a bit different though due to it's size, I don't believe teams close-by (ex. Fulham/Chelsea) play at home on the same day. There's also a huge rivalry between Newcastle/Sunderland, same with Liverpool/Everton.
A large number of passengers use the Metro and it usually requires a heavy police presence. Newcastle in particular last night was chaotic after the match and Christmas shoppers. We're struggling as is, let alone with this all chucked on top.

 

[47434]

Indeed - but not based on random combinations of sporting fixtures.
More seriously - perhaps Northern should have been allowed to hire-in a couple of TPE's current spares?

The challenge is train crew knowledge. It isn't the good old days when anyones locomotive could pull anyones carriages

 

[Urban-Savage]

Not just isolated to NE - trains out of Lime St yesterday were short formed and absolutely rammed solid - very unsafe and hardly any attempt re covid safety
They need to get a grip and reinstall the pre covid withdrawn services - now the great British public have been set free - for now anyway!

 

[47434]

Not just isolated to NE - trains out of Lime St yesterday were short formed and absolutely rammed solid - very unsafe and hardly any attempt re covid safety
They need to get a grip and reinstall the pre covid withdrawn services - now the great British public have been set free - for now anyway!

Most are reinstated. The downside of reinstatement I guess, is that temporarily strengthened services will revert to shorter formations.

If Covid has changed one thing, it is the dramatic shift towards the leisure market. Problem is, you can't have trains just for Saturdays and Sundays - it used to happen in the good old days of British Rail - coaches would sit in yards during the week and a freight only engine would haul them around at weekends - much to the delight of enthusiasts but, as a model for capacity, it worked.