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Northern pay negotiations - deal agreed

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absolutelymilk

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AlterEgo

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To quote one paragraph from the above...

"The RMT's dispute is over a pay offer that does not meet the benchmark that the union has set elsewhere in the rail industry"

Another union paradox. They - supposedly - want nationalisation, but that wouldn't offer them the opportunity to collectively bargain with over 20 different TOCs and effect incremental upward pressure on wages.
 

HH

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Does anyone know what the offer is?
 

Carlisle

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Another union paradox. They - supposedly - want nationalisation, but that wouldn't offer them the opportunity to collectively bargain with over 20 different TOCs and effect incremental upward pressure on wages.
Im sure by now many rail users realise they'd gain virtually nothing from or possibly even be much worse off on any future nationalised railway that wasn't accompanied by some sort of no strike deal
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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To quote one paragraph from the above...

"The RMT's dispute is over a pay offer that does not meet the benchmark that the union has set elsewhere in the rail industry"

Wouldn't it therefore be equally good if the RMT union strike pay was also "set at a benchmark level comparable to average daily earnings". Perhaps the RMT should wish to take that fact on board and lead by example.
 

Camden

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Not going to go down well with those who earn a fraction of their members pay, who pay a lot of money to use their services (and who actually provide the railway company profits) to go to jobs they need where their own pay hasn't moved upwards in a decade.
 
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RJ21

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Northern's statement says it is 2% this year followed by RPI+0.1% for two/three years after that.
 

pemma

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To quote one paragraph from the above...

"The RMT's dispute is over a pay offer that does not meet the benchmark that the union has set elsewhere in the rail industry"

From yesterday:

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:“British passengers are paying the highest fares in Europe to travel on rammed services while the private train companies are laughing all the way to the bank. Companies like Southern Rail and their French owners are siphoning off cash to subsidise rail services in Paris and beyond.”"It's a national scandal and will only be stopped through public ownership of our railways."


https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rail-fare-increases030117/

So they are complaining about fare rises and the subsidies for rail franchises being too high one day and then demanding better pay rises for one of the most heavily subsided franchises the next day. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not going to go down well with those who earn a fraction of their members pay, who pay a lot of money to use their services (and who actually provide the railway company profits) to go to jobs they need where their own pay hasn't moved upwards in a decade.

I was just thinking Corbyn wants to allow sympathy strikes. IF that was to happen I could see a lot of sympathy strikes in support of public sector workers but I can't see the sympathy strikes in support of train crews who have a vote on industrial action when they get offered an above inflation increase for an already well paid role.
 
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WatcherZero

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And they escaped the pay freezes and pay reductions many others have suffered over the past 7 years.

One of the things that helped them over the last few years was a shortage of new drivers being trained to meet demand and companies poaching them from each other, however now a lot of companies are running big driver recruitment campaigns ahead of new fleets introduction so that union bargaining chip has been lost. You also have the joint bargaining deals with RMT and Aslef jointly recognised in pay negotiations by the previous crop of franchise operators expiring with new franchisees.
 
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Mag_seven

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And they escaped the pay freezes and pay reductions many others have suffered over the past 7 years.

Just because others have rolled over and accepted pay freezes and reductions why should rail workers do the same? Do we all have to join in the race to the bottom?
 

Clip

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Wasnt this the pay rise that didnt get sorted last year? Poor form from Northern that,.
 

Andyh82

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Striking blantently over pay won't get the public's support.

Usually they bundle in something about safety.
 

mandub

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It is the April 2016 pay deal that they put forward in September/October (not sure exactly when).
The offer is rpi +0.1% for each year, for 3 years with an option for a 4th year.
The first year is stated as 2% because rpi was 1.9% in 2016, I think they say it's whatever rpi is in January of each year.

Can't speak for anyone else but I don't think it's a completely terrible offer but no one wants 3 or more years.

I'm not in the rmt so can't vote in their ballot, but I'm in favour of action short of a strike, but would vote against full strike
 
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Smidster

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Northern's statement says it is 2% this year followed by RPI+0.1% for two/three years after that.

While it may be less than inflation that is a hell of a lot more than many of those using those services (including myself) will be getting for the foreseeable future.

Absolutely no sympathy on this one and can only hurt them in the debate when DOO comes north.
 

FordFocus

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Won't be a popular opinion on here because as we know these forums hate anyone who dare stand up for their terms, conditions, pensions and salary but Northern are behind on industry pay. I await the usual comparisons in threads like these to nurses, bus drivers, firefighters, astronauts, pilots and self service scanning machines in Tesco.

This pay deal was meant to be sorted last spring but the franchise change presumably put that on hold. I'm honestly surprised it's dragged on this long.

When other companies up and down the country including other Arriva TOCs can sort out acceptable offers with little hassle on multi year deals it's no wonder the unions have decided to ballot.
 

Bevan Price

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What are current typical pay rates (pre-overtime) for Northern staff (guard, driver, station staff, etc.) ?
 

pemma

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Just because others have rolled over and accepted pay freezes and reductions why should rail workers do the same? Do we all have to join in the race to the bottom?

In many cases you don't accept a pay freeze. Your contract says you're entitled to a pay review and the employer says "Sorry we made a loss and can't even afford to replace people who have resigned never mind give pay increases." Yet with the railways there's no such thing as making a loss as a big cheque from the government arrives if the TOC doesn't perform as well as expected.

'Race to the bottom' is a term used by the most stupid union leaders who don't know a thing about the operational side of a business and then their members start repeating it like sheep. How can you be racing to the bottom when your pay is increasing?

If Northern employees don't like being on lower pay than other TOCs they can always move to other TOCs - I'm sure Southern would welcome them with open arms!
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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'Race to the bottom' is a term used by the most stupid union leaders who don't know a thing about the operational side of a business and then their members start repeating it like sheep. How can you be racing to the bottom when your pay is increasing?

I wish this website had a "like" button, when I see such an excellently worded posting as this
 

Andyh82

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I'd expect Northern and probably Arriva Trains Wales to be on the lowest pay as they neither have the London/South of England weighting nor the higher wages staff working for the higher profile "Intercity" operators presumably receive.
 

Bantamzen

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In many cases you don't accept a pay freeze. Your contract says you're entitled to a pay review and the employer says "Sorry we made a loss and can't even afford to replace people who have resigned never mind give pay increases." Yet with the railways there's no such thing as making a loss as a big cheque from the government arrives if the TOC doesn't perform as well as expected.

'Race to the bottom' is a term used by the most stupid union leaders who don't know a thing about the operational side of a business and then their members start repeating it like sheep. How can you be racing to the bottom when your pay is increasing?

If Northern employees don't like being on lower pay than other TOCs they can always move to other TOCs - I'm sure Southern would welcome them with open arms!

All of which would be fine if anyone for a minute believed that large employers held off pay freezes / reductions until absolutely necessary.

However if you are the person finding your wage progressively getting worse against inflation, it is little consolation that your employer and/or share holders aren't turning the profit they would like. Far too often people turn these kinds of discussions into an envy argument, often saying that they have had to put up with freezes / reductions, so why shouldn't everyone else. But shouldn't people make their case? After all over the years many in the private sector have watched their pensions go south, wages increases slowed, stopped or even reduced, and for many terms and conditions worsened. And for what? Often just to keep shareholders happy in positive returns? Sooner or later there will be a tipping point in this country, people are already maxed out to death on personal credit, often suffering stagnating wages and increasing costs of living. This cannot go on.

What you are seeing with the TOC strikes is the tip of the iceberg. The RMT may often be way overzealous in the way it approaches these issues, but they are only picking up on what employees are feeling. We've already seen other areas such as cabin crews threatening action, and there are serious rumblings in areas like the NHS again. If you suppress wages for too long and cause increasing issues for employees, sooner or later this will result in malcontent.

I for one will be severely affected by any action Northern crews take, but I refuse to lower myself to slag them off for trying to make things better for themselves.
 

Robertj21a

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All of which would be fine if anyone for a minute believed that large employers held off pay freezes / reductions until absolutely necessary.

However if you are the person finding your wage progressively getting worse against inflation, it is little consolation that your employer and/or share holders aren't turning the profit they would like. Far too often people turn these kinds of discussions into an envy argument, often saying that they have had to put up with freezes / reductions, so why shouldn't everyone else. But shouldn't people make their case? After all over the years many in the private sector have watched their pensions go south, wages increases slowed, stopped or even reduced, and for many terms and conditions worsened. And for what? Often just to keep shareholders happy in positive returns? Sooner or later there will be a tipping point in this country, people are already maxed out to death on personal credit, often suffering stagnating wages and increasing costs of living. This cannot go on.

What you are seeing with the TOC strikes is the tip of the iceberg. The RMT may often be way overzealous in the way it approaches these issues, but they are only picking up on what employees are feeling. We've already seen other areas such as cabin crews threatening action, and there are serious rumblings in areas like the NHS again. If you suppress wages for too long and cause increasing issues for employees, sooner or later this will result in malcontent.

I for one will be severely affected by any action Northern crews take, but I refuse to lower myself to slag them off for trying to make things better for themselves.

Not particularly disagreeing with you on some of those points but if '......people are maxed out to death on personal credit' then there may well be something very wrong with where their priorities lie.
 

the sniper

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In many cases you don't accept a pay freeze. Your contract says you're entitled to a pay review and the employer says "Sorry we made a loss and can't even afford to replace people who have resigned never mind give pay increases." Yet with the railways there's no such thing as making a loss as a big cheque from the government arrives if the TOC doesn't perform as well as expected.

Are staff to blame for a Conservative government perpetuating a system whereby TOCs are profitable no matter how they perform? Why shouldn't employees share in the financial success of their employer? As the business keeps growing, surely pay rises make perfect sense by your logic...
 

09065

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The Government set the benchmark by increasing the National Minimum Wage. That makes anyone else's wages, for work which maybe worthy of a premium over the NMW, worth less.

Or maybe someone who works a shop till, or cleans an office, should be paid the same as someone who is reponsible for the safety of thousands of lives every day.
 

Bantamzen

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Not particularly disagreeing with you on some of those points but if '......people are maxed out to death on personal credit' then there may well be something very wrong with where their priorities lie.

Maybe so, but not necessarily always. If someone, for example, relies on additional credit to either be within commutable distance of their work, or indeed in the case of the S/E in particular just to be able to afford the commute, what do they do? Look for lower paid work, move to another part of the country, perhaps away from family or friends? Just scratching a living in 21st century Britain is becoming increasingly expensive, especially when it comes to housing. Even where I live, a long way from the S/E commuter belt prices for buying / renting are still increasing way beyond the rate of inflation and people's wages. One can only cut the cloth so far before there is none left.
 

yorksrob

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Not particularly disagreeing with you on some of those points but if '......people are maxed out to death on personal credit' then there may well be something very wrong with where their priorities lie.

Given that they're probably the only people keeping the economy going currently, perhaps we need to be raising average wages across the board, rather than relying on credit based economic activity (unless we discover that land of milk and honey full of rich people willing to buy our tat).
 
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HH

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... Yet with the railways there's no such thing as making a loss as a big cheque from the government arrives if the TOC doesn't perform as well as expected.

This is simply not true. While on some franchises there is partial revenue support (and this has been decreasing for several years), no franchise has cost cover.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are staff to blame for a Conservative government perpetuating a system whereby TOCs are profitable no matter how they perform? Why shouldn't employees share in the financial success of their employer?

TOCs are not profitable no matter how they perform. If that had been the case there would have been no NX East Coast.

Northern is a loss-making franchise that has to be supported by a grant. It's hard to see how it could ever be a financial success.
 
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Tetchytyke

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TOCs are not profitable no matter how they perform. If that had been the case there would have been no NX East Coast.

And to prevent another NXEC the DfT put cap-and-collar arrangements in for most other TOCs, so where a TOC gets their sums wrong it is the taxpayer who gets to write a giant cheque out to compensate them. East Midlands Trains got £46m off DafT in 2012 to cover a £25m six-month loss.
 

HH

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All of which would be fine if anyone for a minute believed that large employers held off pay freezes / reductions until absolutely necessary.

However if you are the person finding your wage progressively getting worse against inflation, it is little consolation that your employer and/or share holders aren't turning the profit they would like. Far too often people turn these kinds of discussions into an envy argument, often saying that they have had to put up with freezes / reductions, so why shouldn't everyone else. But shouldn't people make their case? After all over the years many in the private sector have watched their pensions go south, wages increases slowed, stopped or even reduced, and for many terms and conditions worsened. And for what? Often just to keep shareholders happy in positive returns? Sooner or later there will be a tipping point in this country, people are already maxed out to death on personal credit, often suffering stagnating wages and increasing costs of living. This cannot go on.

What you are seeing with the TOC strikes is the tip of the iceberg. The RMT may often be way overzealous in the way it approaches these issues, but they are only picking up on what employees are feeling. We've already seen other areas such as cabin crews threatening action, and there are serious rumblings in areas like the NHS again. If you suppress wages for too long and cause increasing issues for employees, sooner or later this will result in malcontent.

I for one will be severely affected by any action Northern crews take, but I refuse to lower myself to slag them off for trying to make things better for themselves.

No rail staff are hard done by, downtrodden public sector workers. They've all had inflation-busting (and on RPI, not CPI) increases over many years. The only envy here is that some rail companies (usually the ones making lots of money) pay more than others.
 
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