Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by johntea, 15 May 2018.

  1. johntea

    johntea Established Member

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    The following lines are now Northern ‘Penalty Fare’ as of 14 May

    York to Manchester Victoria via Hebden Bridge
    Leeds to York via Harrogate
    Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe
    Leeds to Skipton/Ilkley/Bradford (Forster Sq only?)

    According to Paul Barnfield from Northern the collectors will be out and about from the end of May:

    https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...sheffield-rail-users-with-no-ticket-1-9096510

    I travel on the Harrogate line daily and am yet to hear any on board announcements regarding the changes, also yet to see anyone challenged for wanting to buy a ticket on board from a station along the route (even paying by card!) so it’ll be interesting to see if anything changes by the end of the month.

    There are posters up at the various stations but the TVM automatic software upgrade seems to be problematic, as some still don’t show the warning or offer Promise To Pay.
     
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  3. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe: What's the current TVM provision at Rotherham Central? I don't recall there being a machine, unless it's in the booking office, which would make it inaccessible in the evenings or early mornings.
     
  4. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    Isn’t it at the top of the stairs on the ticket office side. I seem to remember something like that but I could be mistaking it for somewhere else.
    It’s a long way to walk to get a ticket at Moorthorpe if you come in from the road and want to Sheffield train.
     
  5. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    I have used the Promise to Pay function for the first time this week. It continues to be unclear to me what one is to do if one dispenses one for an outward journey. Does it cover the return journey? They have an expiry of four hours on them which would imply not, unless it's within four hours. But then what do you do if you dispense a new one at the start of your return journey? How do you pay for your outward? I have asked Northern this question directly but they simply said that the vouchers should be exchanged as soon as possible and that they're valid all day. If there is no oppourtunity on the train to exchange the vouchers, that doesn't help. And they say on their face that they are only valid for four hours so I am not sure how they could be valid all day.

    I pressed the button marked 'Press for Assistance' on the ticket machine to see if anyone would answer this question for me, but it appears that that button is for show only.

    More lies certainties that are not justified from Paul Barnfield, just the same as last time. He can't issue any fines, but he's happy to perpetuate that myth. I can only guess as to why.
     
    Last edited: 15 May 2018
  6. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    It’s nice to see the contradictions haven’t taken long to start. 4hours or all day or as we know, not required at all
     
  7. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    I travel far less often than daily but have heard no such announcements on the Moorthorpe line after the PF programme was revealed. Tickets were still being sold on board last week, without hesitation or comment, to people joining at Sheffield never mind intermediately.

    I have rather lost track of all the new PF stuff but, with stations as far as Swinton also being served by Doncaster route trains are passengers on those covered by the scheme or not ?
     
  8. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    This has not been clarified, although again, I have asked. For example Manchester to Wilmslow via Manchester Airport is said to be included. So, if somone gets on at Wilmsow and goes towards Crewe does that count? What about if they travel to Manchester but via Stockport?
     
  9. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    I was at a station on Monday where a revenue block was taking place, with the Authorised Penalty Fares Collectors present.

    They told me that the TVM at that location was not yet issuing P2Ps, though it has a staffed ticket office so it wasn't an issue at that time. I asked if a passenger arriving off another TOCs train could be issued a PF, and they said if they'd travelled from 'this line' (as in-the route where PFs were in operation, this train comes from elsewhere) then yes. If not, then no. The other TOC does not have a Penalty Fare scheme in any form...
     
  10. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    Yep, walk past the ticket office, and before you get to the lift down to Platform 1 there's a ticket machine there. No doubt people will ignore is as they do at the moment.
     
  11. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    I dot understand how members of this forum still struggle with this concept even after the last big thread about it.

    If you get a promise to pay then you exchange it for the ticket you want and I'd northern don' provide that facility then that's their loss.

    If you have cash and a card with funds available then use your card I can see very very few reasons as to why you wouldn't unless passengers are being difficult just because they can.

    Guards still selling tickets on board will be an internal matter for Northern to address but it does amuse me how much interest people pay to others when travelling on the railway
     
  12. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    And no doubt they’ll start to regret their decisions to do so very soon.
     
  13. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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    I noticed the PF posters at Sheffield yesterday, and as far as I could see they don’t mention which TOCs it applies to.
    The EMT train manager (or whoever made the announcement) on my train home referred to them as fines too...
     
  14. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    The on-board announcements do seem to vary from guard to guard, some on the Aire / Wharfe lines will remind passengers with what sounds like a standard script others do not. However it is possible that in and amongst all the other announcements they make, they either forgotten about the FP one or have decided that revenue checking is more important. And maybe in some cases the ongoing dispute with Northern means that goodwill is in short supply & crew simply aren't doing it?

    As for updates, sadly this is a reality of remote networked devices. Sometimes updates don't take on some devices (all Windows users will have had this problem at one time or another), so the TVMs will either need the update reapplied & rebooted, or in some cases a software or even hardware rebuild.

    I would suggest it doesn't. If you have obtained a P2P at a station, but have had no opportunity to pay from there until the end of your journey, and have not encountered any revenue checks then you have simply got a free journey with Northern being unable to take any action as they would not even be aware. If there are any cases on their network where a return journey would prove less expensive than just a single for the return leg, then in these cases I would suggest obtaining a single for the return journey & then claiming the difference back, providing both the bought single & P2P, explaining the circumstances.

    However such incidences would be very rare, and most of the travelling public would simply be happy at the free journey and a few quid saved.

    It does clearly state 4 hours on the P2P, and I believe on Northern's website so in this case the Customer Team have incorrectly stated it is valid all day & ought to be told so.

    I would report it as a fault.

    Where there is the ability to pay cash then there is no need for a P2P to be made available. Interestingly at Guiseley there is the ticket office, a standard card only TVM directly outside & on P2 a cash accepting TVM. I don't know if the card only TVM dispenses P2Ps, but it doesn't display the yellow PF notice that others do thus suggesting that it does not. Some tweaking of the software might be needed there methinks.
     
  15. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    Maybe it's a new machine then? Or perhaps I just missed it. The last time I travelled from Rotherham Central and needed to buy a ticket was in March 2017. It was first thing on a Saturday morning so the ticket office was closed. I remember checking online to see what time the ticket office opened and if the station had TVM. Funnily enough, National Rail Enquiries is still saying that there's no TVM at Rotherham.

    On that occasion I was travelling with my dad, who needed to buy a ticket with the SYPTE 50% ENCTS discount. Is that something that TVMs is South Yorkshire can issue?
     
  16. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    If they don't, then, as this represents a failure to comply with the requirements of Paragraph 1(1)(f) of Part 1 of Schedule 1 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, no Penalty Fare in relation to passengers starting their journey at Sheffield can be enforced, and the new appeal body should quash any such Penalty Fares (if they are competent and unbiased). Of course, that doesn't mean Northern et al couldn't or wouldn't 'offer' (demand) an £80 nod-and-wink special.
     
  17. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    I agree in theory, however that doesn't cover someone who arrives whilst the ticket office staff are changing shifts. Anyone aged 16-18 travelling to Liverpool off peak will be overcharged by the TVM as it does not sell 16-18 Saveaways.

    I was told that the TVMs that advertise the Penalty Fares scheme with the 'No Card, No Problem' screens will issue a P2P. The TVMs at Broad Green and Chassen Road I've noticed with the yellow screens from passing trains, and you can certainly pay cash at Broad Green's ticket office which should be staffed full time (minus shift changeovers).
     
  18. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    There seems to be zero interest in enforcing those. The SWR Penalty Fare posters don't even use the regulated wording or colours.

    They also have CrossCountry on them, but XC told me that they don't operate a Penalty Fares scheme.
     
  19. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    Northern have told me that anyone who wishes to buy a ticket that is unavailable from the ticket machine should get a Promise to Pay notice, even if they wish to pay by card. I pointed out to them that you must press a button that says 'I do not have a payment card' in order to get one, but they simply replied that that was the procedure.

    Of course, if the machine can't dispense a Promise to Pay thing then you are stuffed. A member of Northern station staff at my local station I asked about this said that I should always take a photo of the ticket office being closed if there were nobody there at the times there should be, or the ticket machine if it is ever out of order.

    This is backed up by this FAQ:

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/northern-rail-clarify-new-fines-14510679
    Which suggests that is policy. What happens if you don't take a photo, or can't? No answers on that one.
     
  20. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Would a shift change cause any particular delay for customers waiting in a queue? I'll be honest I've never taken much notice at ticket offices when one might be happening but if one was happening whilst a queue was formed I'd hope that staff would swap over quickly to avoid passengers being inconvenienced. I'm not sure this is something that needs covering in the FP scheme though, its more about staff training than anything (I used to work a public facing role for a bit many years ago so do have some limited experience, albeit not in a ticket office).

    As for the TVMs, where one is card only & in a FP Zone they seem by default to display the yellow notice, even if cash facilities are also present at the station, as exampled by the one situated outside the ticket office in Guiseley. However the cash accepting one on P2 does not display the notice, which is why I observed that a software tweak might be in order with perhaps a slightly different banner omitting the "No Card, No Problem" on those TVMs that can take cash.
     
  21. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

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    The ticket office may be closed for something like 15 minutes.
     
  22. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    Yes. I've bought onboard before several times on routes that are now Penalty Fares routes when I've arrived and the shift change has been taking place.
     
  23. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    15 minutes seems like a very long time, especially if it results in a closure. Is this standard pratice because it takes that long to log off / on, or is this more a case of shifts not being arranged properly? Either way that does need sorting where some passnegers might be charged more through no fault of their own.
     
  24. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    If there's only one window then it can be a timely process to book off includig all the cashing up and computer work that has to be done before one ends a shift
     
  25. janb

    janb Member

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    Count money (hope it all balances), log off and on STAR, complete and print (in the case of Northern) online shift sheet which is utilises the STAR PC. If you are prepared and have it down to a fine art, can do in 5-10 minutes. If however it is a more messy, chaotic shift in accounting terms, and less adept staff could take 15 minutes.
     
  26. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    No seperate cash drawers for staff rotations? How very 19th Century. And some members wonder why there is a general push by to encourage passengers to pay electronically, although there is little excuse for such antiquated practices. Most businesses have grasped the concept of staff taking away a cash drawer allocated to them, printing out an expected final balance and checking it without stopping service.
     
  27. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    The EMT TVMs at Sheffield don't offer them. Not sure if Northern ones elsewhere do.
     
  28. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    I can't remember seeing it on there, though interestingly I did see Manchester Airport Staff and Job Seekers discount. I can understand those two discounts being there but you would have thought the ENCTS would be there.

    EDIT: This was at Meadowhell
     
  29. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    Fascinating one this afternoon. I've just arrived at a station with new Penalty Fare posters up. Ticket office of course closed. It only has a single ticket machine which was displaying a message that said 'please use another ticket machine. I pressed the help button and nothing happened. Less than 10 minutes to go until my train, so I called Northern. I spent 5 minutes waiting for them to answer the phone. When they did I explained that the machine thought it was at a station with another ticket machine, but I couldn't find one. They asked me about the ticket office which was closed. Then they said I should take a photograph of the error message on the screen and show it to staff when asked for my ticket. I was asked to confirm that I could do that. I explained I couldn't and she said that that means I may get a Penalty Fare "because you've no way to prove you tried to buy a ticket". She then asked if she could put me on hold, to which I said that the train was due in 2 minutes but that she could. Luckily the train was 3 minutes late so she came back and asked me for my name and address. I gave her my name but not my address. She also recorded what ticket I wanted to buy and said that this would mean that if I were given a Penalty Fare they would have a record that I had tried to pay.

    I pointed out that this had taken 10 minutes to organise, and asked if this were company policy. She said that company policy is that everyone has a ticket before boarding. I pointed out the obvious problem. She said that she could only comment on the policy as it stands, which is that everyone has a ticket before boarding, but that discretion may be shown if customers can prove that they could not buy a ticket before boarding with a photograph.
     
  30. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    If that’s anything to go by then it’s only a matter of time before someone comes onto here having been unjustly PFd :rolleyes:
     
  31. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Member

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    What if, as a passenger, you didn't have a smartphone capable of taking pictures? Or you didn't have a phone or had one that was dead?

    Ridiculous policy, and as Merseysider said, only a matter of time until someone is PF'd incorrectly.
     

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