Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

[lyndhurst25]

Blimey. I've heard it all now. My phone doesn't take pictures. I shall have dig out that old Polaroid camera from the loft and remember to lug it around with me whenever I travel by Northern. Can you still get the films for them?

 

[Clip]

No seperate cash drawers for staff rotations? How very 19th Century. And some members wonder why there is a general push by to encourage passengers to pay electronically, although there is little excuse for such antiquated practices. Most businesses have grasped the concept of staff taking away a cash drawer allocated to them, printing out an expected final balance and checking it without stopping service.

That' not just all about the cash drawer though you still have to put the remittance throuh the computer and if there' only one then it has to close

If that’s anything to go by then it’s only a matter of time before someone comes onto here having been unjustly PFd

And yet the scheme has been running for over a month now and still we haven't had one which is fascinating considering how much doom and gloom everyone claimed there would be with this scheme.



P.s. I don' doubt one will come alon and you an all jump up and down with glee saying 'I told you so I told you so'.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

and the brand new TVM's don't take American Express either !

 

[Bantamzen]

That' not just all about the cash drawer though you still have to put the remittance throuh the computer and if there' only one then it has to close

And yet the scheme has been running for over a month now and still we haven't had one which is fascinating considering how much doom and gloom everyone claimed there would be with this scheme.

P.s. I don' doubt one will come alon and you an all jump up and down with glee saying 'I told you so I told you so'.

Indeed, the sense of excitement amongst some members at the prospect of someone incorrectly being issued a PF is almost tangible.

Meanwhile in the real world where TVMs are out of action people still seem to manage to interact with train crews and say things like "Sorry mate I couldn't get a ticket because the machine was out of order", and by some form of magic not yet known by some respected members a ticket appears out of nowhere for the exchange of currency or production of an accepted card. I have duly informed the Wictchfinder General as this must be some form of witchcraft.....

Seriously though, some people seem grimly determined to make issue of something that tens if not hundreds of thousands of passengers have found is a basic & simple premise, that is get a ticket before you board and if for some reason you can't either report it or speak to a member of crew. I do worry how some function in day to day life when simple problems can cause so many anxieties. If someone, somehow did get incorrectly PF'd then I would expect on complaint for Northern to reverse it and apologise as well as remind revenue staff of procedures.

I have to say that to this point the revenue checks I have encountered on the Aire & Wharfe lines have been pleasant Northern staff, who don't seem to be the jack-booted jobsworths that may have been perceived by some folk previously. Indeed when there was the recent disruption between Guiseley & Leeds the revenue staff at Shipley doubled up as customer service, pointing passengers travelling between the two which platforms to head for.

Of course this will never be enough some people who seem to make a living out of complaining, but hey ho that's all part of life's rich & varied tapestry!

and the brand new TVM's don't take American Express either !

A lot of places don't accept AmEx, you can blame AmEx for their transaction charges for that. The best advice would be to carry a second credit card as backup, most AmEx holders should have credit scores well above the minimum for most other cards.

 

[thejuggler]

Having travelled on Caldervale and Airedale lines this week from stations with PF in place and TVMs working, the guards are still more than happy to sell tickets.

 

[_toommm_]

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a period where they're still going to sell tickets to ease people into it, bit they should be warning people about the PFs.

After all, its above the general public to take notice of a new sign.

 

[Smidster]

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a period where they're still going to sell tickets to ease people into it, bit they should be warning people about the PFs.

After all, its above the general public to take notice of a new sign.

Also a commuter on Airedale line and can confirm that guards continue to just go through train shouting "anyone need a ticket" without any indication that the passenger should have done something different.

That is what really gets to me about this sort of thing - if you are going to have a system then OK but when you have your grace period at least tell the people that they are being given a "lucky break" and that next time they will be treated like a criminal for doing what they have been allowed (and debatably encouraged) to do for years on end.

As for those saying "well we haven't heard any horror stories yet". Bear in mind that the scheme hasn't really started yet and I prefer to use Northern's track record which is lamentable at best. They need to show me that they are not going to do things wrong - we are past the point I give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A lot of places don't accept AmEx, you can blame AmEx for their transaction charges for that. The best advice would be to carry a second credit card as backup, most AmEx holders should have credit scores well above the minimum for most other cards.

Indeed it is true that many smaller organisations do not accept Amex. However, from family and friends with Amex, I would hazard a guess that approximately 85% of the average Amex-holder's purchases (by number or amount) can be made on Amex. National Rail is one of those larger organisations which unquestionably accepts Amex.

Therefore, for Northern to install brand new ticket machines which do not accept Amex - when virtually all other ticket machines do - is entirely unacceptable and a very poor showing. Having an Amex card could be the latest 'get out of having to buy a ticket before you board' pass!

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed it is true that many smaller organisations do not accept Amex. However, from family and friends with Amex, I would hazard a guess that approximately 85% of the average Amex-holder's purchases (by number or amount) can be made on Amex. National Rail is one of those larger organisations which unquestionably accepts Amex.

Therefore, for Northern to install brand new ticket machines which do not accept Amex - when virtually all other ticket machines do - is entirely unacceptable and a very poor showing. Having an Amex card could be the latest 'get out of having to buy a ticket before you board' pass!

I don't know the reason why AmEx is no longer accepted by Northern's new TVMs, but I do know that more & more retailers are starting to not accept them because the transaction charges are just so much higher than other cards. For them its either pass the cost on to all customers, pass it on just to AmEx customers or simply say they no longer accept them. You can guess which option most take, and I suspect this may be the start of Northern stopping acceptance. But perhaps a query to them about the matter might be in order to see what their official position is?

However, and I can say this with great confidence through various family businesses as well as many events we have organised between us, AmEx is a card rarely offered as a primary method of payment. I can only assume that its popularity is waning rapidly and as such the number of passengers affected will not be great, especially as many will probably have another card available for use alongside. I don't even recall the last time I saw AmEx advertised in any form of UK media, when once it was a fairly regular product advertised (and generally seen as a bit of a status symbol). Even when I was in the US a couple of years ago, and around the time Chip & Pin was being rolled out, it was amazing to see many retailers having signs at checkouts warning that AmEx was not accepted. So it can't really be a surprise that it is falling from grace & no longer being accepted. No company is compelled to accept all types of cards, and those using cards less well supported would do well to, and I suspect do carry more accepted forms of cards such as Visa or MasterCard.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't know the reason why AmEx is no longer accepted by Northern's new TVMs, but I do know that more & more retailers are starting to not accept them because the transaction charges are just so much higher than other cards. For them its either pass the cost on to all customers, pass it on just to AmEx customers or simply say they no longer accept them. You can guess which option most take, and I suspect this may be the start of Northern stopping acceptance. But perhaps a query to them about the matter might be in order to see what their official position is?

However, and I can say this with great confidence through various family businesses as well as many events we have organised between us, AmEx is a card rarely offered as a primary method of payment. I can only assume that its popularity is waning rapidly and as such the number of passengers affected will not be great, especially as many will probably have another card available for use alongside. I don't even recall the last time I saw AmEx advertised in any form of UK media, when once it was a fairly regular product advertised (and generally seen as a bit of a status symbol). Even when I was in the US a couple of years ago, and around the time Chip & Pin was being rolled out, it was amazing to see many retailers having signs at checkouts warning that AmEx was not accepted. So it can't really be a surprise that it is falling from grace & no longer being accepted. No company is compelled to accept all types of cards, and those using cards less well supported would do well to, and I suspect do carry more accepted forms of cards such as Visa or MasterCard.

I am afraid your anecdotes are just that. Virtually all chain retailers accept Amex, as do perhaps a large minority of non-chain retailers. This website may be useful to get an idea of just how many shops actually accept it. The acceptance of Amex is definitely increasing and not decreasing, and I have seen plenty of advertising for them - on the internet, on billboards and even, rather frequently, on trains. They are reducing their fees to compete with Visa and MasterCard, and are giving small businesses incentives to accept them.

But the above is entirely irrelevant to this matter - Northern are obliged to accept Amex as a payment method, just as they are obliged to accept cash, RTVs, Visa, MasterCard, transport tokens, travellers' cheques and a variety of other arcane payment methods. They do not have a dispensation not to accept it as far as I can tell and so it is in no way OK for them to try to save a bit of money by not accepting a payment method they are obliged to, when it is merely a case of choosing a card terminal provider, and/or agreeing terms with said provider, and it is not, for instance, a case of accepting and handling cash that may be stolen.

 

[Bantamzen]

I am afraid your anecdotes are just that. Virtually all chain retailers accept Amex, as do perhaps a large minority of non-chain retailers. This website may be useful to get an idea of just how many shops actually accept it. The acceptance of Amex is definitely increasing and not decreasing, and I have seen plenty of advertising for them - on the internet, on billboards and even, rather frequently, on trains. They are reducing their fees to compete with Visa and MasterCard, and are giving small businesses incentives to accept them.

But the above is entirely irrelevant to this matter - Northern are obliged to accept Amex as a payment method, just as they are obliged to accept cash, RTVs, Visa, MasterCard, transport tokens, travellers' cheques and a variety of other arcane payment methods. They do not have a dispensation not to accept it as far as I can tell and so it is in no way OK for them to try to save a bit of money by not accepting a payment method they are obliged to, when it is merely a case of choosing a card terminal provider, and/or agreeing terms with said provider, and it is not, for instance, a case of accepting and handling cash that may be stolen.

Sorry but the very fact a site exists to list who does accept it lends itself to the fact that many places don't. As I have said AmEx have higher transaction charges and as such many retailers are not prepared to pay these themselves or pass them onto customers. And it isn't irrelevant, it is a key point that has been raised. Is there any regulation / law that states a TOC must accept AmEx, when they don't even accept certain types of Visa / MasterCards? I know that the National Rail site says they do, but are they obligated contractually or by law / regulation to do so? As I said earlier, this might be worth a query directly to Northern to seek the current positon.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry but the very fact a site exists to list who does accept it lends itself to the fact that many places don't. As I have said AmEx have higher transaction charges and as such many retailers are not prepared to pay these themselves or pass them onto customers. And it isn't irrelevant, it is a key point that has been raised. Is there any regulation / law that states a TOC must accept AmEx, when they don't even accept certain types of Visa / MasterCards? I know that the National Rail site says they do, but are they obligated contractually or by law / regulation to do so? As I said earlier, this might be worth a query directly to Northern to seek the current positon.

nationalrail.co.uk describes itself as the 'definitive source' for rail travel information. On this page it lists all the acceptable payment methods. Since, for instance, someone wanting to pay with a certain payment method (say, Amex) but who is unsure if this is accepted might Google 'national rail payment methods' and see this as a first result, stating that:

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex. Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.

Thus, any reasonable person in that situation, having read the above statement, would be influenced in their buying decision such that they might believe they are able to pay either at the station, or on board if they cannot buy their ticket at the station due to the facilities not accepting their valid payment method.

Thus, by virtue of Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, the validity of Amex as a payment method is a binding contractual term. If Northern decline to accept Amex then this is not the passenger's problem.

There can be no question that Amex is not as widely accepted as Visa and MasterCard, or that Amex generally charges higher fees to merchants. However, it is unquestionably valid as a payment method on trains that are part of the National Rail network, and so any problems with acceptance are those of the train company and not of the passenger.

 

[Bantamzen]

nationalrail.co.uk describes itself as the 'definitive source' for rail travel information. On this page it lists all the acceptable payment methods. Since, for instance, someone wanting to pay with a certain payment method (say, Amex) but who is unsure if this is accepted might Google 'national rail payment methods' and see this as a first result, stating that:

Thus, any reasonable person in that situation, having read the above statement, would be influenced in their buying decision such that they might believe they are able to pay either at the station, or on board if they cannot buy their ticket at the station due to the facilities not accepting their valid payment method.

Thus, by virtue of Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, the validity of Amex as a payment method is a binding contractual term. If Northern decline to accept Amex then this is not the passenger's problem.

There can be no question that Amex is not as widely accepted as Visa and MasterCard, or that Amex generally charges higher fees to merchants. However, it is unquestionably valid as a payment method on trains that are part of the National Rail network, and so any problems with acceptance are those of the train company and not of the passenger.

The National Rail site is an information portal & ticket search engine. It does not process ticket sales, nor does it take payments so if it displays incorrect information on payment types that is something for them to rectify. The Northern site states the following:

We accept all major credit and debit cards for payment. Unfortunately, we can't accept Electron cards or any type of pre-payment card.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/tickets/78-can-i-pay-for-my-tickets-by-card

Its vague to say the least, the phrase "major credit and debit cards" is subjective & doesn't offer a clear response on way or another, although it is a phrase used by many retailers so they are far from alone with this. However as most users of TVMs probably don't go to the NR site to check card validity, the key here is do the TVMs display AmEx as a valid card or not? If the latter then whilst its not exactly customer friendly, they are not breaking any consumer law. It doesn't matter if a card is perceived as widely accepted or not, unless you are able to point to regulation or law that states the contrary then a retailer is not obliged to accept AmEx, or indeed any other form of card payment.

But more to the point, do many AmEx holder really not have another credit or debit card available to them in case a retailer or their technology not accept them? I seriously doubt it. Many travel guides around the world, especially those based in the US note that AmEx is far less accepted in the UK & Europe than MasterCard & Visa, & advise travellers to carry a second card. I'm sure most UK based AmEx holders at similarly aware of this. Quite honestly this is more an example of trying to make a problem where one really doesn't exist.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The National Rail site is an information portal & ticket search engine. It does not process ticket sales, nor does it take payments so if it displays incorrect information on payment types that is something for them to rectify. The Northern site states the following:



https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/tickets/78-can-i-pay-for-my-tickets-by-card

Its vague to say the least, the phrase "major credit and debit cards" is subjective & doesn't offer a clear response on way or another, although it is a phrase used by many retailers so they are far from alone with this. However as most users of TVMs probably don't go to the NR site to check card validity, the key here is do the TVMs display AmEx as a valid card or not? If the latter then whilst its not exactly customer friendly, they are not breaking any consumer law. It doesn't matter if a card is perceived as widely accepted or not, unless you are able to point to regulation or law that states the contrary then a retailer is not obliged to accept AmEx, or indeed any other form of card payment.

But more to the point, do many AmEx holder really not have another credit or debit card available to them in case a retailer or their technology not accept them? I seriously doubt it. Many travel guides around the world, especially those based in the US note that AmEx is far less accepted in the UK & Europe than MasterCard & Visa, & advise travellers to carry a second card. I'm sure most UK based AmEx holders at similarly aware of this. Quite honestly this is more an example of trying to make a problem where one really doesn't exist.

The National Rail Enquiries website is published by and on behalf of all National Rail train companies. What they say is therefore a binding term of the contract insofar as a consumer is influenced by it before or during the contract.

Northern may or may not be in breach of consumer law by refusing Amex. However, more significantly, they would be in breach of contract if they did so, as they would be breaching the implied term that Amex is accepted, as outlined in my previous post. No sanction could be taken against any passenger for failing to buy a ticket before boarding if this was because they could not use their Amex card and did not have an alternative method of payment they could use, or were willing to use.

 

[Bantamzen]

The National Rail Enquiries website is published by and on behalf of all National Rail train companies. What they say is therefore a binding term of the contract insofar as a consumer is influenced by it before or during the contract.

Northern may or may not be in breach of consumer law by refusing Amex. However, more significantly, they would be in breach of contract if they did so, as they would be breaching the implied term that Amex is accepted, as outlined in my previous post. No sanction could be taken against any passenger for failing to buy a ticket before boarding if this was because they could not use their Amex card and did not have an alternative method of payment they could use, or were willing to use.

I'm sorry but unless you can offer some evidence that Northern, or indeed any other TOC are in breach of any contract by not accepting AmEx then I see no issue here other than another reason to moan about Northern.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm sorry but unless you can offer some evidence that Northern, or indeed any other TOC are in breach of any contract by not accepting AmEx then I see no issue here other than another reason to moan about Northern.

I have already done so. Section 50(1) of the CRA makes anything said by or on behalf of the trader which influences the consumer an implied term of the contract. If a consumer is unsure whether Amex is accepted it would be entirely reasonable to search for 'national rail payment methods' and see the nationalrail.co.uk I have previously linked. This confirms that all major credit cards, including Amex, are accepted by all train companies. Thus, a passenger would likely be influenced in believing they can use their Amex card and thus it is an implied term of the contract. If Northern refuse to accept Amex (or, at that, any other acceptable payment method) then they are in breach of contract.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I have already done so. Section 50(1) of the CRA makes anything said by or on behalf of the trader which influences the consumer an implied term of the contract. If a consumer is unsure whether Amex is accepted it would be entirely reasonable to search for 'national rail payment methods' and see the nationalrail.co.uk I have previously linked. This confirms that all major credit cards, including Amex, are accepted by all train companies. Thus, a passenger would likely be influenced in believing they can use their Amex card and thus it is an implied term of the contract. If Northern refuse to accept Amex (or, at that, any other acceptable payment method) then they are in breach of contract.

You seemed to have missed this crucial piece of information from the NRE site that you linked to:

Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.​

I'm pretty confident that allows Northern to have a limited acceptance in place for Amex, or cash, so long as it's accepted at staffed stations. It makes sense, as many users will opt for another card, saving a few % for Northern.

I have paid by Amex on-board, since the introduction of the new guard's machines. Like many, I use Amex to pay for business expenses through a corporate card.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You seemed to have missed this crucial piece of information from the NRE site that you linked to:

Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.​

I'm pretty confident that allows Northern to have a limited acceptance in place for Amex, or cash, so long as it's accepted at staffed stations. It makes sense, as many users will opt for another card, saving a few % for Northern.

I have paid by Amex on-board, since the introduction of the new guard's machines. Like many, I use Amex to pay for business expenses through a corporate card.

Yes, self-ticket machines may not accept Amex but it clearly says:

[The acceptable payment methods] also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.

Thus either they must accept Amex at stations or on trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

I have already done so. Section 50(1) of the CRA makes anything said by or on behalf of the trader which influences the consumer an implied term of the contract. If a consumer is unsure whether Amex is accepted it would be entirely reasonable to search for 'national rail payment methods' and see the nationalrail.co.uk I have previously linked. This confirms that all major credit cards, including Amex, are accepted by all train companies. Thus, a passenger would likely be influenced in believing they can use their Amex card and thus it is an implied term of the contract. If Northern refuse to accept Amex (or, at that, any other acceptable payment method) then they are in breach of contract.

Sorry but that does not answer my question. I asked if a TOC is legally obliged to accept AmEx, you have not provided evidence that is this so. That the NR site lists that particular card as accepted is not as far as I can see legally binding, as the NR site neither sells tickets or processes payments.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, self-ticket machines may not accept Amex but it clearly says:

Thus either they must accept Amex at stations or on trains.

Which they do. So where's the issue?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry but that does not answer my question. I asked if a TOC is legally obliged to accept AmEx, you have not provided evidence that is this so. That the NR site lists that particular card as accepted is not as far as I can see legally binding, as the NR site neither sells tickets or processes payments.

As already explained, Section 50(1) of the CRA makes it an implied term of the contract that Amex is an acceptable payment method.

where's the issue?

Northern are, for the sake of scrimping a few precious pennies, failing to accept an acceptable payment method with brand new ticket machines. This could cause a passenger who is only able or willing to use Amex at the very least some inconvenience, and at the worst accusations of fare avoidance (and potentially a prosecution) if their claims that the ticket machine did not accept their card type are rejected.

It is not worth saving the money when so much could be at stake, considering the involvement of Northern's notoriously heavy handed (and poorly trained) Carlisle Security lot.

 

[Puffing Devil]

As already explained, Section 50(1) of the CRA makes it an implied term of the contract that Amex is an acceptable payment method.

Northern are, for the sake of scrimping a few precious pennies, failing to accept an acceptable payment method with brand new ticket machines. This could cause a passenger who is only able or willing to use Amex at the very least some inconvenience, and at the worst accusations of fare avoidance (and potentially a prosecution) if their claims that the ticket machine did not accept their card type are rejected.

It is not worth saving the money when so much could be at stake, considering the involvement of Northern's notoriously heavy handed (and poorly trained) Carlisle Security lot.

You are wrong. There is no contract issue and quoting the Consumer Rights Act is ludicrous. Passengers can pay with Amex at outlets other than the TVMs. Passengers who want to pay with Amex can do so either on the train or at a station.

You're trying to create a problem where one does not exist for the vast majority of passengers and there have been no complaints of passengers being prosecuted or disadvantaged: buying on a train instead of a TVM is not a disadvantage.

Save your outrage for a better cause - you could start with the ongoing shoddy service in Lancashire.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You are wrong. There is no contract issue and quoting the Consumer Rights Act is ludicrous. Passengers can pay with Amex at outlets other than the TVMs. Passengers who want to pay with Amex can do so either on the train or at a station.

You're trying to create a problem where one does not exist for the vast majority of passengers and there have been no complaints of passengers being prosecuted or disadvantaged: buying on a train instead of a TVM is not a disadvantage.

Save your outrage for a better cause - you could start with the ongoing shoddy service in Lancashire.

My 'outrage' is at them trying to scrimp by reducing passenger ticketing facilities whilst simultaneously increasing revenue protection activities. It's not on for a new set of ticket machines.

I also don't see how quoting the CRA is ludicrous. It is very much in train companies' interests to discredit the applicability and extent of this law, since it expands passengers' rights in unprecedented ways. It nonetheless applies fully to the rail industry and they must respect its provisions, which include the fact that any statements made by or on their behalf which influence the consumer in any way are binding terms of the contract.

 

[geoffk]

Isn’t it at the top of the stairs on the ticket office side. I seem to remember something like that but I could be mistaking it for somewhere else.
It’s a long way to walk to get a ticket at Moorthorpe if you come in from the road and want to Sheffield train.

This applies at many stations with only one TVM, especially those served from a road bridge. Several on the Calder Valley, including Mytholmroyd, Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston. Another issue is when the only way across the line is via a level crossing, meaning that making a detour to buy a ticket could mean missing your train if the barriers go down.

 

[geoffk]

Having travelled on Caldervale and Airedale lines this week from stations with PF in place and TVMs working, the guards are still more than happy to sell tickets.

Yes that's correct, but sometimes the guard has a non-functioning ticket machine, and it's not unknown for them not to have one at all. It seems that, if I want a rover ticket (not sold by TVMs) and board at an unstaffed station, I should get a P2P just to be on the safe side.

 

[syorksdeano]

From what I have read about these at Sheffield, you will receive a penalty notice if you travel to or from Sheffield via Moorthorpe but not if you are travelling via Barnsley

 

[scrapy]

From 25 June stations on the following routes will be penalty fare stations for Northern services.

Leeds to Nottingham
Leeds to Doncaster
Manchester to Stoke
Blackpool South to Preston
Blackpool North to Preston
Preston to Liverpool
Preston to Manchester via Chorley and Bolton
Preston to Manchester via Wigan

 

[[.n]]

Blimey. I've heard it all now. My phone doesn't take pictures. I shall have dig out that old Polaroid camera from the loft and remember to lug it around with me whenever I travel by Northern. Can you still get the films for them?

My phone doesn't take photos - its basic Nokia, it does however make phone calls and send text messages - oh and the battery lasts for days thus ensuring it can be used for its intended purpose without me worrying about it having no charge. [My some inxplicable Nokia reason, it does play video/mp3, but won't display jpg]

 

[Merseysider]

From 25 June stations on the following routes will be penalty fare stations for Northern services.

...
Blackpool South to Preston
Blackpool North to Preston
Preston to Liverpool
Preston to Manchester via Chorley and Bolton
Preston to Manchester via Wigan
...

They’ll have to actually run some trains first

 

[185143]

They’ll have to actually run some trains first

Nah, they'll just have to resort to threatening TPE's customers instead!

(Again...)