Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[D365]

That 319/2 subclass was as pimped as you'll get on a mainline passenger train. DBS company train, NMT and even 313121 all out-do it though Wonder what you Northerners would prefer; seats or the lounge re-instated :P

 

[WatcherZero]

Seats, that saloon looks like someone had some pieces left over from his kitchen refurb and though they would make a good center piece.

 

[northwichcat]

According to the MEN it is December 2014 and there may not be EMUs available in time.

A £160m tracks upgrade to slash journey times between Liverpool and Manchester could be ready next year – but there may be no electric trains to run on them.

The electrification of the railway is aimed at cutting the route to just 30 minutes. Experts say it will also double the service frequency, make for more punctual arrivals and even boost property prices along the line.

But passenger campaigners in Manchester fear there will be no trains secured in time for its launch at the end of next year .

The route is currently run by Northern Rail, understood to be in ongoing negotiations with the Government over its franchise and unable to guarantee there will be trains ready.

At one stage, trains were thought to be coming from a London firm replacing its stock – but that plan has fallen through.

John Moorhouse, secretary for TravelWatch NorthWest, said: “It good news this line can bring faster trains between Liverpool and Manchester.

“But we aren’t certain whether there will be electric trains for the route or where they will come from. It’s a bit of a dog’s breakfast really.

Emma Antrobus, transport policy manager for Greater Manchester Chamber of Commerce, said: “The million dollar question is where are the trains coming from?

There is a big danger the line will be electrified but there will be no electric trains.

“We’re really supportive of the investment, the trains are faster, less noisy, easier to maintain and costs are reduced. In principle, they will be good for the business community and the general community.”

The work comes as part of the Northern Hub project, funded by the Department for Transport and delivered by Network Rail. Northern Rail and the Department of Transport could not offer guarantees trains would be ready.

A Northern Rail spokeswoman said: “We are currently in discussion with the Department for Transport on the implications of providing electric trains to operate on the line from December 2014.”

A spokesperson for the Department of Transport said: “Negotiations are ongoing with Northern Rail to ensure passengers get all the advantages of electrification as soon as possible after the upgrade work is complete.”

Work putting in the overhead electricity lines to power the trains is being undertaken by contractor Balfour Beatty.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/next-train-liverpool-might-not-5783449

 

[PR1Berske]

Hahahahahahahaha

Oh can SOMEONE, anyone, please take over from this utter shambles of a company =/

 

[northwichcat]

Oh can SOMEONE, anyone, please take over from this utter shambles of a company =/

Northern or DfT?

DfT should have realised 3 years ago that:
1. The release of 319s is well behind schedule.
2. There is plenty of electrification scheduled and some EMUs are reaching the ends of their lives so allowing a large new EMU order wouldn't result in a surplus of EMUs long term.

 

[sprinterguy]

Northern or DfT?

Indeed. I simply cannot see how anyone could construe that this failing lies at the feet of Northern Rail.

 

[50043]

Is there nothing else coming off lease that could be used as a stop gap ?

 

[anthony263]

Well the class 317's and thats it.

Unless someone wants to do something radical and get some mark2 carriages and a dbso to work push-pull with a class 86/87

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there nothing else coming off lease that could be used as a stop gap ?

To summarise the main findings of this thread, eight former Stansted Express class 317/7s are presently off lease in “warm storage” and available for use. Beyond that, and as Northerns’ requirement for EMUs increases as further phases of the North West electrification go live, Southern have ordered 29 x 4-car Electrostar trains from Bombardier to release class 319s from Thameslink for use on either the Great Western or North West electrified suburban services in 2015.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Indeed. I simply cannot see how anyone could construe that this failing lies at the feet of Northern Rail.

I don't think our dear friend actually enjoys working with facts, though, based on some of his other postings.

 

[northwichcat]

To summarise the main findings of this thread, eight former Stansted Express class 317/7s are presently off lease in “warm storage” and available for use. Beyond that, and as Northerns’ requirement for EMUs increases as further phases of the North West electrification go live, Southern have ordered 29 x 4-car Electrostar trains from Bombardier to release class 319s from Thameslink for use on either the Great Western or North West electrified suburban services in 2015.

8 units won't be another to cover Chat Moss but could at least cover the Airport-Liverpool services even though they won't stretch to be able to cover the Victoria-Liverpool stoppers as well.

I think it's actually the Bolton corridor that will lose out with the Scottish services all being routed via Wigan in 2014 and also Barrow services being reduced in frequency. It was envisaged Northern would run extra services but if there are issues with them getting extra stock then I can see those replacement services not happening or busy services being short formed to make it happen.

 

[DarloRich]

Hahahahahahahaha

Oh can SOMEONE, anyone, please take over from this utter shambles of a company =/

What on earth are you wibbling on about?

Northern (customer) to blame as stock promised by DfT (supplier) (without actually checking it was available) fails to be delivered on ambitious timetable? What next? Northern to blame for death of JFK? Northern in phone hacking scandal? Northern to blame as Titanic strikes iceberg? :roll::roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Northern to blame as Titanic strikes iceberg? :roll::roll:

I'm sure that was the fault of a Pacer.

 

[Beveridges]

How can anyone be moaning about Northern getting 317's ?

If it's not a Pacer don't complain.

 

[northwichcat]

How can anyone be moaning about Northern getting 317's ?

If it's not a Pacer don't complain.

The 317/7s are the only spare stock at the moment and Northern need more EMUs haven't agreed a deal to take on any more EMUs. Northern getting 317/7s would be a logical solution but it's not an agreed deal.

 

[Class377/5]

As I've said before nothing has been officially announced but don't confuse this with nothing has been done. Behind the scenes things are happening just don't expect it to be announced until its all signed and sealed and that's the key point here.

Nothing can be officially announced as nothing has been signed to, just be patient and answers will come out in time.

 

[Whistler40145]

If its Class 317/7s that are readily available & Northern take them on, then they will be better than having to suffer the uncomfortable ride of a Pacer.

Does anyone know when the 317/7s last had a refurbishment?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[northwichcat]

Does anyone know when the 317/7s last had a refurbishment?

2000. Standard class looks to be a bit like Northern's ex-FNW 150s (with refitted 3+2 seats) for part of it and like ATW's 150s (with with refitted 2+2 seats and tables) for the other part.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_rail_photos_ii/6885755897/in/pool-1872476@N24|max_rail_photos_ii

 

[Bevan Price]

8 units won't be another to cover Chat Moss but could at least cover the Airport-Liverpool services even though they won't stretch to be able to cover the Victoria-Liverpool stoppers as well.

Assuming some acceleration occurs after electrification, 7 units (+ 1 spare) could cover Liverpool - Airport (3 units), and (probably) Liverpool - Manchester Victoria (4 units). Alternatively, if the Liverpool - Blackpool service is temporarily cut back to Liverpool - Preston until Blackpool is electrified, that would also be able to manage with 3 units. That just leaves Liverpool _ Wigan stoppers without emus, for which another 5 or 6 would probably be needed.

 

[Whistler40145]

If Northern take on the 317/7s, is there any time to refurbish seat covers & carpets prior to moving up north?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[northwichcat]

Assuming some acceleration occurs after electrification, 7 units (+ 1 spare) could cover Liverpool - Airport (3 units), and (probably) Liverpool - Manchester Victoria (4 units). Alternatively, if the Liverpool - Blackpool service is temporarily cut back to Liverpool - Preston until Blackpool is electrified, that would also be able to manage with 3 units. That just leaves Liverpool _ Wigan stoppers without emus, for which another 5 or 6 would probably be needed.

Electrification will happen ahead of extra platforms at Victoria, Piccadilly and Oxford Rd and before Slade Lane Junction capacity improvements, so you might be able to run Liverpool to Oxford Rd quicker but the train might just have to sit at Oxford Rd for an extra 3 minutes before it can leave for Piccadilly. Given the Liverpool-Airport services have very few stops currently I don't think you can say improved acceleration alone will mean 3 diagrams are required instead of 4.

The idea is Liverpool to Manchester Victoria will be half-hourly all day not just at peak times. So with trains terminating at Victoria from the West (more difficult than from the East) platform constraints may mean any benefit from improved acceleration is lost short term.

Liverpool to Blackpool is actually Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool via Liverpool Lime St for the majority of services. I very much doubt the service will be split at Preston and replacing one through service with two terminating services may cause platform issues at Preston station.

 

[Lampshade]

2000. Standard class looks to be a bit like Northern's ex-FNW 150s (with refitted 3+2 seats) for part of it and like ATW's 150s (with with refitted 2+2 seats and tables) for the other part.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/max_rail_photos_ii/6885755897/in/pool-1872476@N24|max_rail_photos_ii

Not bad actually, I wouldn't complain if we got those.

 

[Bevan Price]

Electrification will happen ahead of extra platforms at Victoria, Piccadilly and Oxford Rd and before Slade Lane Junction capacity improvements, so you might be able to run Liverpool to Oxford Rd quicker but the train might just have to sit at Oxford Rd for an extra 3 minutes before it can leave for Piccadilly. Given the Liverpool-Airport services have very few stops currently I don't think you can say improved acceleration alone will mean 3 diagrams are required instead of 4.
.

Liverpool - Airport current requirement is only 3 units / diagrams. Same unit reappears every 3 hours - unless Lime St borrows one for a Blackpool service. (Theoretically a service from South Parkway, but by no means unknown for it to commence at Lime St.. The South Parkway extension is a bit of an extravagance, and rarely carries more than a handful of passengers on the numerous occasions I have seen it.)

 

[WatcherZero]

As I've said before nothing has been officially announced but don't confuse this with nothing has been done. Behind the scenes things are happening just don't expect it to be announced until its all signed and sealed and that's the key point here.

Nothing can be officially announced as nothing has been signed to, just be patient and answers will come out in time.

As Northern is finalising May 2014/Dec 2014 timetable changes in October would that be the most likely time for an announcement?

 

[Class377/5]

As Northern is finalising May 2014/Dec 2014 timetable changes in October would that be the most likely time for an announcement?

Maybe. But it depends on the other franchises as well as its not just Northern being affected by this.

Is the May timetable a major change like December? Or is it more about the changes to Bolton services?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe. But it depends on the other franchises as well as its not just Northern being affected by this.
Is the May timetable a major change like December? Or is it more about the changes to Bolton services?

May is when the 185 cascade kicks in (and the new Liverpool-Newcastle starts).

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed. From December this year existing Scottish services divert via Wigan (except morning peak southbound services and evening peak northbound services which remain via Bolton.) This allows 350s to be phased in between December and May.

May 2014 sees a full hourly Manchester Airport to Scotland via Wigan service. The through Barrow services will be cut back as well. Both these will result in extra 185s being available which will allow an extra TPE service every hour between Liverpool and York.

However, something then needs to run via Bolton. With the Northern franchise officially ending in April 2014 at present (although likely to be extended) and the next franchise not starting until 2016 that seems to resulted in planning for extra local services being in a less advanced state than the TPE changes.

 

[swt_passenger]

So now we're 12 pages into this discussion, with hindsight was there ever any real possibility of Northern having a few extra EMUs in service this December?

Or was someone in Northern reading his calendar wrong...

 

[Whistler40145]

Would someone kindly explain why FTPE was able to obtain a brand new fleet of Class 350/4s, but Northern are having cascaded units?

 

[northwichcat]

If we go back to when North West electrification was announced by the previous government - the intention was commuter IEP would go on to Northampton-London and leave 350/1s available for TPE to use on Manchester to Scotland via Wigan.

As the current government haven't progressed with commuter IEP rolling stock (and let IEP, Like Thameslink and Crossrail fall behind schedule due to the spending reviews) and had LM waving about a invitation to tender that they had awarded to Siemens for additional 350s, for which an order hadn't been placed DfT obviously decided to add new 350s to the LM order instead.

Why DfT didn't decide to make it an order of 20 x 350/3s and 10 x 350/4s (all 110mph capable), leaving 10 or so 100mph capable 350/2s to cascaded to Northern, given the Thameslink delays, is a different question.

swt_passenger - stranger things have happened. It looked like the December 08 timetable would include a Hazel Grove to Bolton service instead of a Hazel Grove to Preston service as Northern wouldn't get cascaded stock in time. What happened? Northern subleased 3 x 180s from National Express East Coast so that it could be Hazel Grove to Preston - hardly the expected outcome!