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Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

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Greybeard33

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The train via Stoke would be so much slower that no London-Manchester passengers would use it. There might be a case for starting the London-Stoke-Macclesfield service at Phase 2a.
The DfT's modelled TSS does indeed include the Euston - OOC - Stafford - Stoke - Macclesfield service at Phase 2a. That is the only additional HS2 service enabled by Phase 2a (somewhat ironic, since it would not use the 2a infrastructure!)
 
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Roast Veg

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The DfT's modelled TSS does indeed include the Euston - OOC - Stafford - Stoke - Macclesfield service at Phase 2a. That is the only additional HS2 service enabled by Phase 2a (somewhat ironic, since it would not use the 2a infrastructure!)
I don't think that's ironic at all - almost every single "new" service made possible by HS2 will be on the classic infrastructure each phase replaces. That's the point!
 

Greybeard33

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I don't think that's ironic at all - almost every single "new" service made possible by HS2 will be on the classic infrastructure each phase replaces. That's the point!
Except that this is not really a new service, just a partial replacement. Without Phase 2a, Stafford would be served by one of the London - Liverpool HS2 services. With 2a, that service bypasses Stafford. Similarly, without 2a, at least one of the London - Manchester HS2 services would be routed via Stoke and Macclesfield instead of via 2a to Crewe.
 

Rail Ranger

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Indeed. And if the three London - Manchester HS2 services are routed via 2a per the DfT's "Statement of Intent" Train Service Specification, and replace all three of the Avanti WCML services, Stoke and Macclesfield will be left with only the XC services to Manchester, plus the Northern stopper. While Milton Keynes will lose its direct Manchester service altogether. Unless an additional path can somehow be squeezed in between Cheadle Hulme and Piccadilly for a fourth London service via Stoke and the WCML.
Greybeard,
The plan for Phase 1 is to have three trains per hour between Piccadilly and Euston via Crewe and HS2 and one Pendolino per hour between Piccadilly and Euston via Macclesfield and Stoke. This is mentioned in the documentation for the Greek Street bridge replacement south of Stockport station. This bridge replacement (due to happen in 2024) will provide passive provision for two additional tracks in the cutting south of Stockport station. So an extra train per hour each way will somehow have to be squeezed in between Cheadle Hulme and Piccadilly for Phase 1. Phase 2a will in many ways be ideal for users of Stockport station, which of course will lose its HS2 services under Phase 2b.
 
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Greybeard33

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Greybeard,
The plan for Phase 2a is to have three trains per hour between Piccadilly and Euston via Crewe and HS2 and one Pendolino per hour between Piccadilly and Euston via Macclesfield and Stoke. This is mentioned in the documentation for the Greek Street bridge replacement south of Stockport station. This bridge replacement (due to happen in 2024) will provide passive provision for two additional tracks in the cutting south of Stockport station.
Indeed, but that plan would require an additional path between Piccadilly and Cheadle Hulme and two additional paths between Cheadle Hulme and Crewe, relative to the current Avanti track access rights. I do not think Avanti has yet formally applied to Network Rail for access rights for these HS2 services, and I doubt that it is a foregone conclusion that all the paths will be granted. Both the routes are at or near capacity and the other operators, including the FOCs, have Firm Rights for their services, which the ORR would be reluctant to overturn.

I believe the passive provision for widening the Stockport cutting relates to TfGM's plan to run tram-trains from Stockport Interchange on street past Stockport station then through the cutting, on dedicated tracks alongside the WCML, to Edgeley No.2 Junction en route to Manchester Airport via Baguley. AFAIK the HS2 Phase 2a budget does not have any funding earmarked for Stockport capacity enhancements.
 

Rail Ranger

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The documentation for the Greek Street bridge replacement says that the two additional running lines could be tram-train, straight Metrolink or heavy rail.
 

Greybeard33

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The documentation for the Greek Street bridge replacement says that the two additional running lines could be tram-train, straight Metrolink or heavy rail.
Clearly they could - that is in the nature of passive provision. The tram-train plans are still at the aspirational stage and might never happen. I have heard hints that the Manchester Recovery Task Force is looking at possible capacity enhancements for the Stockport corridor, which I suppose might conceivably include some interventions south of Stockport.
 

Class 170101

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Indeed. And if the three London - Manchester HS2 services are routed via 2a per the DfT's "Statement of Intent" Train Service Specification, and replace all three of the Avanti WCML services, Stoke and Macclesfield will be left with only the XC services to Manchester, plus the Northern stopper. While Milton Keynes will lose its direct Manchester service altogether. Unless an additional path can somehow be squeezed in between Cheadle Hulme and Piccadilly for a fourth London service via Stoke and the WCML.
Can you actually get 3tph of High Speed / Intercity services between Crewe and Manchester via Stockport? I wouldn't have thought there was the space for them otherwise why isn't the Intercity service between Crewe and Manchester better than 1tph today?

Indeed surely the local authorties between Crewe and Manchester would be looking for improved local connections to Crewe High Speed Station that having 3tph HS services might scupper this?
 

snowball

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Can you actually get 3tph of High Speed / Intercity services between Crewe and Manchester via Stockport? I wouldn't have thought there was the space for them otherwise why isn't the Intercity service between Crewe and Manchester better than 1tph today?
To answer the last question, it's because the biggest demand is probably from Manchester and Stockport to London, and the trains that meet that demand are divided between ones via Crewe and ones via Macclesfield and Stoke. Once HS2 phase 2a is open, the Crewe route will become more attractive than now and the Stoke route relatively less attractive.


Indeed surely the local authorties between Crewe and Manchester would be looking for improved local connections to Crewe High Speed Station that having 3tph HS services might scupper this?
Stations north of Wilmslow plus Alderley Edge will have access to fast trains to Crewe by changing at Wilmslow. Other stations serve less population but will be able to get to Crewe by existing local services, and will still have much faster trains than now between Crewe and London.
 

Greybeard33

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I don't think it has been mentioned on here that As previously linked by @WatcherZero in post #234, TfN recently published a new document "Transport for the North's advice to government on the Northern Powerhouse Rail network". This gives more detail than previously in the public domain about TfN's preferred route network, and has a new schematic map of the network:
NPR Network3.jpg

It is easy to read too much into this, but it seems to show the new line from Manchester to Bradford near to the Diggle line across the hills rather than the Calder Valley route. The new line from Warrington to Liverpool appears to be closer to the CLC line than the freight line via Fiddlers Ferry. Note the two new stations "Rotherham Main Line" and "Barnsley Dearne Valley" on the Sheffield - Leeds line.

And there is this table of "forecast" frequencies and journey times:
Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-Connect_page-0008 cropped.jpg

The document has comments that try to make the case for each route. Some extracts below:

Regarding Bradford:
Transport for the North has worked with City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council and West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA) to identify a new station site that could support the transformation of the city centre and unlock the regeneration of the ’Southern Gateway’, a 100-hectare area adjacent to the city centre. A new station could be integrated with the existing rail network, connecting with the developing proposals for a mass transit network to be built in advance of Northern Powerhouse Rail, and releasing further land for economic development.
Regarding Liverpool:
The best way to connect these two cities to each other, and beyond, comes with a new line from Liverpool to Manchester via the centre of Warrington.
Only the new line options free up much-needed capacity on the West Coast Main Line and add resilience to an already strained part of the network; a new hub station in Liverpool will add capacity, reducing the impact of terminus stations, and support improvements in journey times. There will also be capacity released for potential future passenger routes between Liverpool and Runcorn, Chester and North Wales, and for shuttle services utilising the Chat Moss and Cheshire Lines Committee (CLC) lines.
Regarding the Hope Valley line:
We have more work to do to confirm the best way to approach Manchester city centre and opportunities will be looked at to speed up delivery of the Hope Valley upgrades. The current preferred option would result in a connection to HS2/Northern Powerhouse Rail infrastructure for onward journeys to Liverpool and Manchester Airport. This would provide wider benefits for northern cities, for example, significantly improving journey times and frequency between Sheffield and Liverpool. However, while the best way to approach Manchester is still under consideration, it is vital that we explore all options.
Note that the map shows the New Mills - Marple route as a NPR line as well as the Hazel Grove - Stockport route. Presumably the Marple line is the option that would enable Sheffield trains to access the Piccadilly HS2 station, via Ashburys. However, this would kibosh TfGM's plan to run tram-trains to Rose Hill Marple!

Regarding Newcastle:
The full reinstatement of the Leamside line, and the upgrades to Northallerton-Stockton-Stillington, would separate high speed passenger and freight services which could support an improvement in train reliability and performance, as well as releasing capacity on the East Coast Main Line which is needed to meet forecast future demand.

Regarding Sheffield - Leeds:
Northern Powerhouse Rail will capitalise on the HS2 eastern leg infrastructure to provide a much-improved railway connection between Sheffield and Leeds. Four Northern Powerhouse Rail services per hour will be provided which will share HS2 infrastructure to Leeds and provide dramatically better journey times. Before joining HS2, an upgrade including the electrification of the conventional railway network north of Sheffield is proposed, where Northern Powerhouse Rail services will serve new intermediate stations at Rotherham Mainline and Barnsley Dearne Valley enhancing connectivity. These new intermediate stations will also significantly transform communities with high levels of deprivation and offer significantly improved access to employment centres in Sheffield and Leeds.
To provide capacity for Northern Powerhouse Rail services on the railway north of Sheffield, local services between Sheffield and Doncaster will be served by an extended tram train network. Building on the successful tram train pilot to Rotherham Parkgate, this will provide new local journey opportunities this will provide new local journey opportunities between Sheffield city centre and the supertram network and intermediate stations through Rotherham and Doncaster.
Tram-trains to Doncaster is a new one on me!

Regarding Hull:
Northern Powerhouse Rail proposes to electrify and upgrade the rail lines from Leeds to Hull via Selby, and upgrade the lines from Sheffield to Hull via Goole and Selby.

Electrification will permit cleaner, faster, and more reliable trains to run between these cities. Combined with track and signalling upgrades to provide further journey time benefits, access will be improved to jobs for the residents of Hull, one of the 10 per cent most deprived local authorities in England: a key strategic need identified in Hull’s city plan.
The nature of the proposed improvements on routes to Hull means that rapid progress could be made toward a possible start of construction in the mid-2020s, delivering benefits to the region soon after.
I thought Leeds - Selby electrification is included in the TRU project?

Edit: 1st para. corrected per #316 below.
 
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Glenn1969

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This is however a wish list. That in an all likelihood won't be funded.

My view is it is needed in full but won't be funded so we will be left with just the Transpennine Rail Upgrade route via Huddersfield and not a lot else

Moderator note: Bradford council's proposals can be debated in this thread: Bradford Council proposal for a new NPR station
 
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snowball

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Didn't earlier documents attach much more importance to improved times between various cities (including Sheffield) and Manchester Airport, with some optimistic-seeming times suggested? Less being said about about that now.

I thought Leeds - Selby electrification is included in the TRU project?
It was part of the project a few years ago, but I think the current version doesn't include anything nearer to Selby or Hull than Micklefield.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Regarding Liverpool:
The words do suggest a new alignment between Liverpool and Warrington/Manchester, otherwise the quoted freeing up of capacity on existing lines can't happen.
But it does seem profligate in the extreme if they can't reuse at least some of the existing alignments.
There's no mention of serving Liverpool South Parkway, for instance.
Maybe they are thinking of an M62 alignment to about Burtonwood before cutting through Warrington and heading for the M56.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The words do suggest a new alignment between Liverpool and Warrington/Manchester, otherwise the quoted freeing up of capacity on existing lines can't happen.
But it does seem profligate in the extreme if they can't reuse at least some of the existing alignments.
There's no mention of serving Liverpool South Parkway, for instance.
Maybe they are thinking of an M62 alignment to about Burtonwood before cutting through Warrington and heading for the M56.
I wonder what the average cost per kilometre will be for such a new line as mentioned above.
 

SuperNova

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Looks like NPR won't be going through Bradford. Choosing the 'Dingle' route apparently... good quality journalism from the express as usual... lol.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...owerhouse-rail-high-speed-3-hs2-boris-johnson
The Sunday Express has been told that Treasury and DfT officials and ministers are set to meet in the Treasury on Monday to effectively kill the project.

Instead the green light would be given to a series of upgrades worth around £10 billion on the “Dingle route”, including the electrification of the Transpennine line between Manchester and Leeds.

This will involve building a new hub station in Huddersfield which will see hundreds of homes in the Yorkshire town compulsorily bought and demolished.

One civil service source said they feared that it would be claimed that electrification was the promised NPR, whereas in fact it is a different and cheaper project.
 
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SuperNova

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I wonder where the £158 billion figure for HS2 has come from? Utter rubbish!
Honestly, it's a massive over-reaction to a byelection defeat that was largely not due to HS2. Even so, the via Huddersfield route was rumoured as far back as Dec 2020 as it was going to be cheaper.
 

ABB125

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Honestly, it's a massive over-reaction to a byelection defeat that was largely not due to HS2.
Well, if the Telegraph is to be believed (which generally isn't the case when it comes to HS2!), HS2 was the main reason for the by-election result.
Evenen so, the via Huddersfield route was rumoured as far back as Dec 2020 as it was going to be cheaper.
To be honest, I don't mind, so long as a high-speed (-ish) route is built all the way across the north.
 

Halifaxlad

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Looks like NPR won't be going through Bradford. Choosing the 'Dingle' route apparently... good quality journalism from the express as usual... lol.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...owerhouse-rail-high-speed-3-hs2-boris-johnson

Its not really a surprised considering how extensive the proposed section between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe is!

Imagine if all non-stop services were taken off it and put on a new route that didn't go via Huddersfield I would imagine it would greatly affect the case from segregating fast services from the slow lines.
 

SuperNova

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Its not really a surprised considering how extensive the proposed section between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe is!

Imagine if all non-stop services were taken off it and put on a new route that didn't go via Huddersfield I would imagine it would greatly affect the case from segregating fast services from the slow lines.
It really wouldn't. Because Heaton Lodge junction is a nightmare at times and the cause of many a delay. Plus as part of the scope for TRU, it includes extra freight paths.
 

WAO

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I think they mean "Diggle" not "Dingle".

Quite circuitous otherwise.

WAO
 

mwmbwls

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So is TfN reduced to being a toothless poodle organisation by a glove puppet Department for Transport in the iron grip of the Treasury? As William Pitt - the British Prime Minister put it after hearing of Austerlitz (the battle not the rail terminus) " Roll up that map; it will not be wanted these ten years" - are we in for a long wait?
 

snowball

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The reference to a new "hub station" in Huddersfield and lots of houses being demolished is mystifying - and also might cause pressure to pull the current TWAO application, leading to years more delay.
 
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