Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[nr758123]

When I saw "Dingle", the first thing that came to mind was the section of the Liverpool Overhead Railway near the tunnel.

My first thought was of a family in a long-running soap opera.

 

[507021]

I think that the Treasury are still in a state of shock as a result of the many billions added to the National Debt during the Covid-19 pandemic.

I'm not sure the large amount of taxpayers' money given away under the guise of bogus PPE contracts has helped either.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure the large amount of taxpayers' money given away under the guise of bogus PPE contracts has helped either.

With the amount of extra borrowing that the Government has taken on to finance all Covid-19 related matters, it won't be taxpayers money, it will be monies from these loans.

 

[Mordac]

With the amount of extra borrowing that the Government has taken on to finance all Covid-19 related matters, it won't be taxpayers money, it will be monies from these loans.

So future taxpayers' money.

 

[edwin_m]

If money is borrowed and spent wisely, then it should increase national prosperity and improve the tax base in future.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So future taxpayers' money.

Now then, just let us deal with matters as they stand. If Britain pays off its National Debt with the oldest debt first, can you hazard a guess in which century the matter under discussion will occur in for repayment with taxpayers money....

 

[Mordac]

If money is borrowed and spent wisely, then it should increase national prosperity and improve the tax base in future.

That's all true. I doubt that's the case with the particular loans in case, but that's beside the point. I was just pointing out that it *is* all taxpayers money in the end!

 

[507021]

With the amount of extra borrowing that the Government has taken on to finance all Covid-19 related matters, it won't be taxpayers money, it will be monies from these loans.

The point I made was that a significant amount of taxpayer money was given away under the guise of bogus contracts for the procurement of personal protective equipment. Had this not occured, then the government wouldn't have to borrow even more money to fund things which actually benefit the taxpayer, such as the major rail infrastructure project being discussed in this particular thread.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Would be a massive blow for Bradford, a city that desperately needs some serious investment and would benefit greatly from a proper line.

 

[quantinghome]

It was never anything else. Disappointed but not surprised they have taken this decision

It's The Express remember.

 

[thejuggler]

Yorkshire Post report:

Fears of 'hammer blow' to Northern Powerhouse Rail and Bradford city station as government considers scaling back plans

Fears are growing that Boris Johnson's government may water down one of his flagship 'levelling up' commitments by scaling back plans for a high speed rail link between Leeds and Manchester.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Whilst anything can be built, the financial case for a Bradford stop must be difficult to demonstrate.

A through route will need new high speed lines into and out of any new station. The clearest land between Leeds and Bradford is the Fulneck Valley, unless a tunnel is proposed for much of the Leeds Bradford route.

 

[snowball]

It's The Express remember.

Yes but there have been hints on this thread before, from people who appear to have inside knowledge.

 

[quantinghome]

Yorkshire Post report:

Fears of 'hammer blow' to Northern Powerhouse Rail and Bradford city station as government considers scaling back plans

Fears are growing that Boris Johnson's government may water down one of his flagship 'levelling up' commitments by scaling back plans for a high speed rail link between Leeds and Manchester.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Whilst anything can be built, the financial case for a Bradford stop must be difficult to demonstrate.

Depends on what basis the financial case is made. It won't work based on 'traditional' Treasury methods which favour building where there is already significant economic development. It would be viable taking a strategic approach to redevelop deprived areas.

A through route will need new high speed lines into and out of any new station.

Not that high speed - how fast does Leeds-Bradford need to be given short the distance means you can never reach high speeds? 100mph would probably do it. And if all trains are stopping at the station then the approach speeds can be significantly lower. NPR doesn't need to be 'high speed', just 'high-ish' - 225kph tops I reckon.

Yes but there have been hints on this thread before, from people who appear to have inside knowledge.

Yes, the case for NPR has been constantly questioned throughout its development. I don't think The Express adds anything to our understanding of this though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Depends on what basis the financial case is made. It won't work based on 'traditional' Treasury methods which favour building where there is already significant economic development. It would be viable taking a strategic approach to redevelop deprived areas.

The now updated standard assessment allows for the inclusion of wider economic benefits driven by change in land use. Even then, I’d be surprised if it made any difference to the option chosen; the cost of getting to Bradford is very large.

NPR doesn't need to be 'high speed', just 'high-ish' - 225kph tops I reckon.

I’d be surprised if there’s much above 125mph. 20 or so miles from Piccadilly to Huddersfield will take around 14 mins with 125; 140 would save less than a minute, 186 would save 2 minutes. And at these speeds you need bigger tunnels, better OLE, more stringent maintenance, etc.

 

[snowball]

I’d be surprised if there’s much above 125mph. 20 or so miles from Piccadilly to Huddersfield will take around 14 mins with 125; 140 would save less than a minute, 186 would save 2 minutes. And at these speeds you need bigger tunnels, better OLE, more stringent maintenance, etc.

However I'd be surprised if there ends up being much mileage at 125mph between Manchester and Leeds if it's mostly the existing Huddersfield route. Even the new fast lines between Hudds and the approach to Dewsbury are only due to be 100/110.

 

[Bald Rick]

However I'd be surprised if there ends up being much mileage at 125mph between Manchester and Leeds if it's mostly the existing Huddersfield route.

I agree, but then I’d be surprised if it mostly the existing route (for precisely that reason).

 

[Glenn1969]

I wouldn't actually. Think it will be Sunaked to reduce the cost. But am only a passenger so don't know much

 

[Senex]

How dar does the extent of the works proposed between Huddersfield and Dewsbury, which seems significantly more than would be needed just to allow capacity for freight and an improved regional service, suggest that the decision on what is to be the future fast main line across the Pennines has already been taken, and that ideas of a complete new-build high-speed line (via Bradford or not) have already been ditched in favour of major upgrades to the ex-LNW Standedge line? We seem to be getting clear indications of what the parameters are to be: essentially, a 110-mph railway is to be built from Huddersfield to Dewsbury, and we know that on the continuation from Leeds to York broadly the same is possible to Church Fenton, with 125 on to York. So the question just remains of what happens between Manchester and Huddersfield, a section where it looks as if it would be pretty well impossible to achieve 100/110-mph speeds without a re-alignment of the much of the existing line so drastic that it might be very well be both easier and financially much better value to go for new build for this section. (Which would have fit with the slight de-scoping of what is already started between Manchester and Staleybridge if this section is perhaps ultimately not to be part of the "high-speed" line.) Drawing on Google Earth, I get 35½ miles for a crow's-flight route from Manchester to Leeds and only half a mile more for such a line via Huddersfield—an absolutely minimal distance penalty as compared with going via Bradford and using gentle enough curve to provide a central station there that could still be passed at speed by some trains. If it is to be the Huddersfield line, the one must assume most trains would be liable to stop. Nevertheless, if the approach from the west does stay through the two western tunnels,it would be good if for the sake of a few through fast trains the speed through the station could be brought up from the proposed 40 to the maximum permissible through the tunnels, currently 55 for the original and 60 for the new one (perhaps 60 for both ultimately)?

 

[quantinghome]

How dar does the extent of the works proposed between Huddersfield and Dewsbury, which seems significantly more than would be needed just to allow capacity for freight and an improved regional service, suggest that the decision on what is to be the future fast main line across the Pennines has already been taken, and that ideas of a complete new-build high-speed line (via Bradford or not) have already been ditched in favour of major upgrades to the ex-LNW Standedge line?

I don't think the Huddersfield-Dewsbury upgrade tells us anything about NPR. It's the only place between Manchester and Leeds where you can put in a dynamic loop to allow fast services to overtake slow ones without building a completely new alignment. Therefore it would happen whether or not NPR goes ahead.

 

[Senex]

I don't think the Huddersfield-Dewsbury upgrade tells us anything about NPR. It's the only place between Manchester and Leeds where you can put in a dynamic loop to allow fast services to overtake slow ones without building a completely new alignment. Therefore it would happen whether or not NPR goes ahead.

Yes, I agree that it's the only place where a dynamic loop could go in, and I agree that even if this were to remain just a regional route such a facility is likely to be needed. But my question is about the scope of the works as a whole, which amount to far, far more than just providing dynamic passing facilities. And in going for a 110-mph railway with the major alterations at both Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe the aim seems to be to build something offering a sustained high speed not needed for regional stopping services. The simple passing facilities could be obtained much more cheaply.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, I agree that it's the only place where a dynamic loop could go in, and I agree that even if this were to remain just a regional route such a facility is likely to be needed. But my question is about the scope of the works as a whole, which amount to far, far more than just providing dynamic passing facilities. And in going for a 110-mph railway with the major alterations at both Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe the aim seems to be to build something offering a sustained high speed not needed for regional stopping services. The simple passing facilities could be obtained much more cheaply.

To overtake on green signals, the faster train must be about 3min behind the slower one at the start of a four-track section, and 3min ahead by the other end. The distance that takes 6min longer at an average of 100mph (fast passenger) than at 75mph (fast freight) is 30 miles. So a 30 mile section is needed for overtaking on greens, and if the fast train stops (eg at Huddersfield) it will need to be even longer (and would be longer still if the line speed was lower, a good reason to get the fastest speed reasonably attainable on overtaking sections). Huddersfield to Westtown is only about 7 miles, so clearly any freight being overtaken would have to stop for some time or dawdle along this section.

In practice freight will probably turn right at Ravensthorpe so would rarely have to do this. The 7 miles looks about right for a fast to overtake a slow, which will be making three extra stops on the four-track section with a time penalty of 2-3min each.

 

[quantinghome]

Yes, I agree that it's the only place where a dynamic loop could go in, and I agree that even if this were to remain just a regional route such a facility is likely to be needed. But my question is about the scope of the works as a whole, which amount to far, far more than just providing dynamic passing facilities. And in going for a 110-mph railway with the major alterations at both Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe the aim seems to be to build something offering a sustained high speed not needed for regional stopping services. The simple passing facilities could be obtained much more cheaply.

The speed is a function of the existing alignment - if you're reinstating tracks and they can be aligned to do 110mph, why go for anything less?

Also dynamic loops have to be quite long to ensure that the slow train isn't signal-checked at the end of the loop. The fast train will have to make up a few minutes on the slow train to be clear. The changes at Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe are essential to ensure there is a long enough four-track section to allow this happen. Not sure how long dynamic loops are elsewhere but 7 miles doesn't seem that long to me.

EDIT: edwin_m beat me to it.

 

[matacaster]

The speed is a function of the existing alignment - if you're reinstating tracks and they can be aligned to do 110mph, why go for anything less?

Also dynamic loops have to be quite long to ensure that the slow train isn't signal-checked at the end of the loop. The fast train will have to make up a few minutes on the slow train to be clear. The changes at Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe are essential to ensure there is a long enough four-track section to allow this happen. Not sure how long dynamic loops are elsewhere but 7 miles doesn't seem that long to me.

EDIT: edwin_m beat me to it.

The existing curve at Heaton Lodge junction can give one a nasty jolt when heading towards Huddersfield - it likely needs quite a bit of regular maintenance to even maintain that state. A softening of the curve is a must for faster running.

 

[snowball]

The existing curve at Heaton Lodge junction can give one a nasty jolt when heading towards Huddersfield - it likely needs quite a bit of regular maintenance to even maintain that state. A softening of the curve is a must for faster running.

The fast lines in the TWAO proposal will bypass the existing Heaton Lodge junction.

 

[Codville]

Boris Johnson And Treasury 'Split' Over North's Biggest Rail Project

Boris Johnson’s key rail “levelling up” pledge to deliver a new line across the north of England is under threat from Treasury moves to cut costs in the project, sources have told HuffPost UK.

Johnson committed to delivering a key part of the £39bn Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) plan - a brand new line between Leeds and Manchester via Bradford - soon after becoming prime minister in July 2019.

Now, amid reports of wider Treasury demands to rein in Johnson spending pledges, sources told HuffPost UK of a “split” between the PM and No.11 over the plans.

It is believed that no decision on funding will be made until the government’s long-awaited integrated rail plan is published.

But three sources told HuffPost UK the Treasury is attempting to delay the publication of the plan to coincide with chancellor Rishi Sunak’s spending review in autumn, while No.10 wants it made public as soon as possible.

A source close to the discussions said they feared that delaying the decision until the spending review would mean “curtains” for a new NPR line, and possibly the eastern leg of the HS2 high-speed rail link to Leeds.

The source said: “There is a split between No.10 and No.11 on how they want to do this.

“Treasury is saying - let’s work out where we can identify savings on this project.

“And if you kick it into the spending review and look at the whole thing in the round, then that gives them more opportunity to cut parts of it but still claim they are delivering transformational connectivity.

“But apparently Boris is adamant he wants to build as much of it in full as possible, and wants to get the integrated rail plan out sooner rather than later in order to get on with it.”

It came as government documents leaked to The Yorkshire Post suggested that officials are considering increasing the funding for upgrades to the existing Leeds-Manchester Transpennine link instead of funding a new line, at a much lower overall cost of £10bn.

Another source said: “The Treasury approach seems to be ‘how can we do this on a shoestring’.

“It is doing its usual thing, it doesn’t really believe in the levelling up agenda.

“From the start, it wanted a £10bn NPR project.”

They added: “Boris is committed to building the thing.

“Sunak has been captured by the Treasury and wants to be in that sound money Conservative space.

“Boris wants to be in that freewheeling transformative prime minister mode.”

Both sources told HuffPost UK that the Department for Transport has long believed that the main benefits of NPR could be delivered through upgrades rather than a new line.

“It would turn a £40bn project about building two new lines creating a fast rail network from Liverpool to Hull, to a cut price one of long overdue upgrades which just paper over the cracks of what is currently a Victorian railway network,” one said.

Johnson was warned that abandoning NPR would be a “hammer blow” to the north and communities like Batley and Spen in West Yorkshire, where the Tories are hoping to unseat Labour in a crunch by-election next week.

A new line could benefit voters in the seat by reducing overcrowding on the existing Transpennine link that passes through nearby Dewsbury, while also providing a new, fast railway from Leeds.

Henri Murison, director of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, said: “In the prime minister’s first major policy speech in Manchester, he committed to building northern Powerhouse Rail across the Pennines.

“Rumours that this commitment will be broken are deeply concerning for northern leaders who are working towards rebalancing the economy.

“The North was promised HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail in full - to be abandoned now, just as we begin a recovery from the pandemic, would be a hammer blow.

“We need reassurance and certainty that there is no substance to these rumours - which means an integrated rail plan published before the summer recess.

“We need a new high-speed rail station built in Bradford city centre and we need to start construction on the eastern leg [of HS2] from Leeds in order to unlock connectivity benefits early.

“That includes getting more frequent and reliable services from the north-east to Sheffield.”

HuffPost UK understands that the government has not yet made any decisions on the rail link, and that the document leaked to The Yorkshire Post outlined one of several options.

A No.10 source said they “don’t recognise” a split on this issue.

Responding to questions on NPR on Monday, Johnson’s official spokesperson said: “There was speculation that we were going to scrap Northern Powerhouse Rail and that’s incorrect.”

But the spokesperson was unable to say whether the government was still committed to a new Leeds-Manchester via Bradford line.

A government spokesperson added: “The integrated rail plan will soon outline exactly how major rail projects, including HS2 phase 2b, the Transpennine route upgrade and other transformational projects such as Northern Powerhouse Rail, will work together to deliver the reliable train services that passengers across the north and Midlands need and deserve.”

 

[Gareth]

I don't see much point mourning over this. It was never going to happen.

 

[Meole]

Media attempt to exploit the by election ?

 

[Glenn1969]

I think the "bad news" announcement will be delayed until after the by election

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Boris is 1st Lord of the Treasury. If he wants it, he should be able to get it.

 

[Meerkat]

Boris is 1st Lord of the Treasury. If he wants it, he should be able to get it.

Alternatively all the leaks are setting up Sunak/HMT as the bad guy - ‘I really wanted to but the howwid Treasury wouldn’t let me’
A bit like the ‘hold me back, hold me back’ types in a pub altercation, or football fans getting all mouthy from behind the segregation fence!